This thread is a companion piece to the "Gatekeeper" thread: Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325)

Special note: I use the male pronoun most frequently as a grammar device. Please understand NONE of the usage should be interpreted as gender bias, just an old man's Lean method of avoiding extra keystrokes inserting "he/she" or "him/her."

As always, I freely recommend a visit to the web site of Richard Bolles, the author of "What Color Is Your Parachute?" (http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/)

Background:
Job ads and recruiters say, "Send your resume. Include . . . ."

Over the last 40 years, I have looked at literally thousands of resumes for every level of job from clerk to CEO. I may appear too cynical to many of you and not cynical enough to a few of you. My hope is that as this thread develops, at least some of you will have an EPIPHANY, that moment when you bang yourself on the forehead and shout, "AHA! Of course! Why couldn't I see that before?"

The companion thread discussed getting past the gatekeeper to make your case for employment before the person who could actually make the decision.

The big question is, "What can I say in that cover letter and resume that will COMPEL that person to call me for an interview?"

The big truth here is that no one gets HIRED from a resume, one only gets hired after an interview, even if it's only a phone interview.

The small truth here is that most persons in a position to hire other people are really clueless about the entire process of hiring people, even if they've personally hired hundreds of people. Repetition doesn't make an expert if you do each repetition wrong - ask any golf pro about the poor duffers ingraining bad habit after bad habit as they whack away on the driving range.

These same clueless hirers are often heard to say, "Wow! That guy sure didn't turn out the way I expected when I hired him." as they tell the clerk to prepare the hapless employee's pink slip.

The caution:
As a job candidate, you have to be prepared to deal with BOTH kinds of hirers - the ones who follow a good process and the ones who don't have a clue.

In Quality, the emphasis is on "process." Let's work out a process for a job search and apply things like FMEA (Failure Mode and Effects Analysis), Lean, Mistake Proofing, PDCA, DMAIC, etc. Perhaps one of the graphic arts geniuses like Wallace or Claes will review the thread when it's reached a certain point and create a beautiful graphic for us to clip and save for when the time comes (it does come to all of us sooner or later.)

I have a strong idea of the points we should cover and how to do it within the budget each of us has available, but I'd like some input from our Covers so I can ensure we cover all the bases and don't commit the crime of
"A-S-S-U-M-E"
At this point in the thread, let's just "brainstorm" some ideas about how we decide the kind of job we want and are suited for and how to identify the places that have or might create openings for someone with the combination of skills and experience we can bring to the table.

More background:
At various times, as I was growing up, I wanted to be like cowboy heroes, Tom Mix, Gene Autry, Lash LaRue, Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, Red Ryder, etc. A little older and I wanted to be Lamont Cranston (the Shadow), Mandrake the Magician, Prince Valiant, Terry and the Pirates.

(Actually, I'd still like to be like Mandrake, but that's a story for a long night with plenty of Scotch.)

The point is, that as I learned about more and more occupations, I tried to fit myself in those molds. Most of us still do that today. It's a good thing if the fit is realistic, frustrating if it's not a realistic fit. There are a lot of euphemisms floating around to describe it, but a lot of folks feel trapped in the wrong job and even more feel discriminated against because they can't get the job of their dreams. The truth is most of them aren't really trapped and even fewer are discriminated against for the same reason they think they are. Sure, there are jerk employers who will discriminate against a candidate because they don't like the candidate's gender, age, skin color, church affiliation, etc. Did you really want to work for a jerk like that?

Most of the discrimination (other than real jerks) is triggered by the hirer's impression (from the cover letter and/or resume) that the candidate won't "fit in" with the organization. In my experience, that is because the candidate presents himself via the cover letter and resume as a stuffy, unimaginative "follower" who only wants his needs satisfied and never once mentions what value he can bring to the organization, backed up by an example of what he did some where else. Why?

I believe the primary reason is that the candidate has neglected the first step in the job search - he hasn't decided the kind of job he wants and is suited for.

I have seen countless resumes begin with
Objective: a management position where I will have a chance to grow and expand my skills
I usually stop reading right there.

How about:
Objective: . . .Open to a wide variety of positions within an organization assisting in . . .
"assisting" is a sure sign of a "follower" and "wide variety" tells me he doesn't know what he wants and is hoping I will figure out what he's good for. We'll never know, because it hits the circular file.

Get my drift?
If you want to convince a hirer you are right for the job, you have to be convinced yourself. Any hint you are not convinced puts your resume in the trash.

So, let's hear some ideas on how to determine what a candidate is really good at and what kind of job he's suited for.

My beginning list (not complete):

good in school at what?
good experience in an industry
bad in school at what?
good big company experience
bad big company experience
really good at solving problems
take a personality test
take an aptitude test
ask my best friend
ask my boss
can relocate
can't relocate
have some special skill that is in high demand
really good at written and verbal communication
patient with fools
prone to swear at other drivers while commuting
lots of "book knowledge" about a subject
lots of "practical experience" about a subject
have special certifications
no special certifications

When we get a good "brain storm" list, we'll create a grid and determine which ones fit where on the grid and which ones apply to the specific candidate we have in mind (not everyone will have the same personal grid.) Ultimately, we will reach a point where we know the real skills and experience we have as "product" to sell. Next, we will identify the "market" (Industry, geography, and job function) where we'll have the highest success in finding a buyer. Next, we'll craft a "sales pitch" (cover letter and resume) to appeal to each buyer in that market. Once we get face to face with the buyer, we craft the "closing" (interviews) to bind the deal. Once we close, just like good Quality folk, we continually evaluate our status with an eye toward improvement.

Additions to the list of how to determine what the candidate is good at and/or what job function fits those characteristics?

Nice, Wes! :applause: :applause: :applause: This thread is a good service to the Cove, thank you.

The job seeking and employment process looks like a giant, slow-motion game of Blind Man's Bluff. Both sides are groping for what they think they want, and feeling their way around until they think they have found it. After grabbing the objective job/new hire, the honeymoon starts. What happens next is fodder for Monster.com's career forums.

I can see a clear gap between what so many job seekers and career builders believe they should do, and what you say is important they do, when pursuing more than your regular day-to-day job.

First, there is absolutely a deficit in building these skills in the public education system. While I don't expect such young people should have the kind of high level resume and cover letter writing skills that you are recommending, in my view most kids are not leaving school with the ability to write clearly, consicely, objectively, accurately and compellingly about themselves or anything much that they have done or experienced. They just aren't learning the writing techniques that, to be fair, do not come naturally or by osmosis. It takes high quality training, discipline and effort to do it well.

I think resume and cover letter writing can be classified as technical writing, which is exacting work and not stressed nearly enough in our schools. It is a discipline that, IMHO, should be introduced in the early adolescent years or before. From my vantage point, I don't see it happening.

While this has not been a focus of my research, based on my observations and experiences in college I can also sadly say that chances are good that college graduates can also easily lack this important skill. I'm also going to make a guess that paid resume services will often produce what you might call round file resumes.

I agree that this can be a large contributor to a business expense that I have not yet seen tackled as a quality issue--even though the costs can be breathtaking: employee turnover costs, and also absenteeism costs while the employer is enduring certain ramifications of a poor choice of hire.

From my view the best way to correct this problem is to advocate for training on all education levels. The school systems need to be shown demand, proof that it is important. This is going to get harder, not easier, with an increasing focus on standardized testing.

Demand must be loudly articulated by the customers: businesses. Your mentioning that there are many clueless, but very experienced hirers, is illuminating. These are the people who can demand schools include technical writing skills, and job seeking skills such as resume and cover letter writing. If they don't think they have a problem--if they don't know truly good from mediocre and don't think their hiring process needs improvement--, then you and I are shouting in the wind for only the chance listeners to hear.

I can vouch that a middle school science teacher of my acquaintance is doing his small part by demanding his students write their lab reports in a specific format.

I can also say that Maine, like many other states, has developed a set of education guidelines that include career preparation: The Maine Learning Results (MLR), which was written with input from Maine's business leaders. I dug out my copy and found rather abstract, early approaches to the hallowed self-selling skill. MLR lists, among other things, portfolios, excersizes in solving a community problem, analyzing/charting various aspects of work experiences. I have observed a focus on achievement portfolios in Maine's secondary grade tech schools, as well as both middle and secondary academic schools. So, that's a start.

In secondary level under Section B, Education/Career Planning and Management, resume writing and modeling interview skills are listed, as are self-assessment and career analysis as part of a planning process. However, I am not aware that these things are actually being done, with the notable exception of VICA programs that are now lodged in about 10 of the state's secondary vocational/technical schools. Some 4H programs also offer career building skills development. These are both extracurricular programs.

They stress, as does the MLR, entry levels as the focus. Their objective is to get the young people started. Once they leave the school system, people are on their own and don't know good skills from bad from mediocre unless they seek and find their resources--another Blind Man's Bluff game.

That said, I can humbly offer a starting point. One should start with "Who am I exactly, and what do I want to focus myself on for true fulfillment?"

These three products/services appear to be good sources of direction, and can help people to self define and articulate their goals.

For seekers of aptitude and interest direction and redirection, MAPP testing is available at http://www.assessment.com/MAPPMembers/Welcome.asp?accnum=06-5194-000.00
I have also run across two organizations that offer good facilitated self development planning processes. The Catalyst products are good for making a plan and managing progress. Personal Catalyst is found at http://www.vision2action.net/pcat.html and Management Catalyst is found at http://www.amcinc.com/prod.html.

I am not affiliated with any of these groups.

I hope this helps!

As this thread develops, I intend to show a way to deal with the clueless hirer, in spite of himself. The reason I say it is the companion to the gatekeeper thread is you must ESPECIALLY evade the gatekeepers set out by clueless hirers. Those gatekeepers are the ones who will trash your resume for dumb things like not putting the year of your high school graduation on the page.

In my experience and opinion, most gatekeeper rules do filter out the completely incompetent candidates, but they are not able to pick out a truly stellar candidate either, because his resume won't fit the template they are given to do the filtering. All the more reason a good or a great resume has to leapfrog the gatekeeper system.

Here's something to keep in mind from the gatekeeper system which will be important at EVERY stage in the job hunt process:
Only the very best hirers will be looking for a reason to hire the candidate. The vast majority of hirers, even some of the good ones, will be looking for an excuse to discard the candidate. The candidate, therefore has to eliminate as many "knockout" items from his process as possible.

Certainly, neatness and accurate spelling and grammar should be a given, but there are thousands of resumes floating around that have neither.

The analogy is trite, but think of the process as like a first date, when you want to impress your date partner. You clean up, wear appropriate clothes, smile a lot, and engage in the kind of conversation which helps you know the dating partner on a more personal level and for the partner to know you.
HOWEVER, everyone has a horror story of his own or of a close friend who had the "date from he!!" There is never a second date! This thread will help you avoid being the date from he!!, and will help you avoid meeting the boss from he!!.

Where most people fall down in the cover letter and resume process is that they don't develop a meaningful "story" which catches the hirer's interest enough to say, "Gee! I'd like to go on a second date - let's have an interview!"

This advice may not be directly meaningful for a reader who is old and well-established and is not seeking a job, but what about considering this advice when YOU ARE THE HIRER? What about for your children? your spouse? nephews and nieces? friends and coworkers?

I'm trying to tell a story here that will keep each reader's interest enough to ask questions and make comments. The job hunt is not won by a random walk through the woods. Just like a real hunter, you have to arm yourself with the proper tools to capture the prey and hunt where that prey can be found. Most of all, don't waste your ammunition by shooting at shadows.

So, folks, any brain storm ideas to know your own abilities and skills?

Well said, as always Wes.

I submit that the employment process, both for seekers and hirers, has become much more complex than most people seem willing to recognize. Folks on both ends are failing to recognize the need for effective planning, including the time and resources that are required for it. People do not spring from the egg with these planning skills. The are learned and require practice.

If one doesn't want to use the products/services I referred to in my last post, making a portfolio could be a good start in knowing and defining one's abilities and skills. The portfolio, as a collection of accomplishments, might be virtual (just written out), but the maker should examine every entry as a tangible thing or as something that is very real to the stakeholder, such as money, hours saved, defects reduced, etc.

In some cases, there could be a tangible example. I once made an employee orientation manual for my company's safety program. The little manual is a source of pride, as its format was much more effective than the manual it replaced. To communicate its value among my accomplishments, I should include some measure of its effectiveness, like X fewer mishaps due to increased awareness. This means I must have actually taken both before and after measures of this kind of effectiveness, so we must learn to assume this mind set in every job we are working in--even if the organization not currently apply it.

Pride is a learned, and carefully used trait. Over my lifetime I have been exhorted to be humble on moral grounds, but humility is not particularly helpful when developing a resume or portfolio. One needs to learn to brag, but carefully so by accurately showing how much the accomplishment mattered to the employer.

Over time, we may have developed a widely varied list of accomplishments. The resume should include only those that express why you are right for that particular position.

When one develops a list of such accomplishments and reasons why they are important, one might categorize them in a matrix and assign values according to their impact. One could adapt the QFD function for this purpose.

As Wes has said, a resume's listed abilities are of no interest unless they articulate their benefit to the employer. Further, it is important to show how the job seeker anticipated the employer's needs and/or exceeded the accomplishment's expectations. The portfolio's entries could have value assigned to them on this basis.

Do you, dear Cove readers, think this exersize would help to define one's abilities and skills in a usable manner? What would you do differently, and why?

Over time, we may have developed a widely varied list of accomplishments. The resume should include only those that express why you are right for that particular position.

When one develops a list of such accomplishments and reasons why they are important, one might categorize them in a matrix and assign values according to their impact. One could adapt the QFD function for this purpose.

As Wes has said, a resume's listed abilities are of no interest unless they articulate their benefit to the employer. Further, it is important to show how the job seeker anticipated the employer's needs and/or exceeded the accomplishment's expectations. The portfolio's entries could have value assigned to them on this basis.

Do you, dear Cove readers, think this exersize would help to define one's abilities and skills in a usable manner? What would you do differently, and why?Right! Especially your highlighted items in blue.
Let's first assemble a list of techniques to help us assess our "core values"
Then list our core values as we discover/recognize them
Next, let's put them in a matrix which will help us decide which of those are potentially important to an employer and which should not be disclosed.
Armed with the matrix, we can determine the industries, geographic locations, and specific job function (functions, not titles!) we want to hunt.
Next, we select a target and draw aim (fly fishermen hunt with hook and line, not dynamite!) to hit that specific target without spooking the other prey.
Finally, when we hit the target, we have to bring it home and consume it.

So the progression of this thread will be

learn techniques to "know one's self"
list candidate's real skills and talents
create matrix of skills to be "buyer-centric"
target potential employers which will like your "bait"
aim carefully - right cover letter and resume to right person
Ace the interview
Continual evaluation for improvement when on the job
Important note:
Certainly, folks should consider looking at and evaluating advice available in other places. If you find something which seems inconsistent with what we say here, bring it back to us and let's all examine it. I am always of the opinion the group mind is greater than the sum of the parts.

I'm especially interested in comments or ideas that contradict this entire thread. As much as I think I know, I am always willing to learn more. Alternately, perhaps we can help someone see a "better way."

From time to time, I get questions from job hunters which ask, in effect, "How can I survive? My industry where I have experience doesn't have jobs. How can I move to another industry at the same level? Won't they expect me to start again at the bottom?"

My answer has always been some variation of, "What was there about the activity or function you had in one industry that will be applicable in another? Figure that out and emphasize that in your pitch to the new industry."

Mostly, they look at me like I was speaking in some obscure dialect of Martian or Klingon.

Well, over the weekend, I took some time to read about Aylwin Lewis, a 26 year veteran of the fast food industry with no merchandising experience, who was selected to be a first-time CEO of KMart and who will be CEO of the combined KMart/Sears takeover. A perfect example of jumping from one industry to another.

One quote by a former Mentor of Lewis is particularly telling:
Robert Nugent, Chairman and CEO of Jack In The Box Inc. said, "Quick study with good strategic thinking skills and wonderful interpersonal skills."

Further, Nugent said, "If anyone can pull it off, Aylwin can!"

There was sure nothing industry-specific in that praise, was there? Do you have a former boss who would say something similar about you? If yes, that's great! If not, why not?

My whole point is that the thrust of your cover letter must be about YOU and what YOU can do for the employer, based on the skills you have polished over your career.

With the help of your colleagues here in the Cove, you can make a "killer resume and cover letter." Don't allow yourself to wallow in a rut. If you are unemployed or "underemployed," today is not too soon to start working on your transition!

In order to have the best "fit" with a job, we need to identify the critical characteristics of our personality, skill, education, and experience which will mesh best with the mating parts of the "job."

If we followed these opportunities to get a clear picture of our own characteristics:

good in school at what?
good experience in an industry
bad in school at what?
good big company experience
bad big company experience
really good at solving problems
take a personality test
take an aptitude test
ask my best friend
ask my boss
can relocate
can't relocate
have some special skill that is in high demand
really good at written and verbal communication
patient with fools
prone to swear at other drivers while commuting
lots of "book knowledge" about a subject
lots of "practical experience" about a subject
have special certifications
no special certifications
we come up with a list of our own characteristics. (Remember to have a trusted friend or consultant review the list to confirm the characteristics are accurate.) Our next task is to sort those characteristics into some sort of a grid which will put characteristics into groups we might label

important to me and my family and friends
important to potential employer
makes no difference to anyone else
We might further subdivide those into "good and bad effect"

I envision one type of preliminary grid as a table with

all characteristics I can identify about myself listed in the first column,
second column heading "positive for employer"
third column - "negative for employer"
fourth - "positive for family and friends"
fifth - "negative for family and friends"
sixth - "makes no difference to anyone else"
After making the blank grid, the candidate should go down the list and put checkmarks in the appropriate columns. Next, ask the trusted friend or consultant to mark up a copy of the grid. Discuss and resolve differences in where checkmarks go. (this might be a time to consider eliminating the negatives from the candidate's life.)

Once a candidate goes through this part of the job hunt, he'll be ready to move to the next step, which is to identify the targets for the hunt which will most appreciate the characteristics available to offer. We will take that up after the Thanksgiving holiday.

What I'd like to know before then is whether this approach makes sense to you. If not, why not?

Another question - is this posting method causing frustration because all the information is not ready in one neat package?

What I'd like to know before then is whether this approach makes sense to you. If not, why not?

Another question - is this posting method causing frustration because all the information is not ready in one neat package?

I like it! I'm sooo busy at work right now, I've barely had time to pop in and catch up on a few threads - but, I'll work on a characteristics list for myself that we can use as an example.

I have an ISO surveillance audit November 30th that I'm actually looking forward to. We are having an AS auditor out for the first time - planning on AS9100 registration in May 2005. I'm going to get a little bit of Pre-Assessing (not consulting ;) ) during our last ISO surveillance audit. So, I'll get back to this thread as soon as I can. I know, I know - you're on the edge of your seat! :)

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the posts, and not sure if it is appropriate for your Resume and Cover Letter discussion but :topic: I can't believe how many people apply for a job and have no idea what the company does.

Our company has a website. Assuming that you do not have computer access, I still do not think it would be terribly difficult to find out at bare minimum that we are a steel service center.

And if you're serious about interviewing somewhere, wouldn't it be a good idea to see if you know anyone that works there already? I laugh when someone walks in to interview and you hear "Hey! Suzie! Didn't know you worked here - how are you?" and Suzie has worked here for 17 years!!!

So if it applies to your candidate list, I'd add something like "does research about potential company" as a point on your list.

:topic: Using my own experience, my MIL works for a nursing home and she'd love to have me work there too. One small problem - I can't stand the antiseptic smell there. Just to walk in the door makes me shiver so obviously I won't be applying to any nursing homes looking for work in the forseeable future!!! :thanks:

One of the first things we covered in the companion thread (Post #3 in the Gatekeeper thread http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325)
was "Simply stated: my experience is different. Leadership qualities may be grist for a different mill. The main topic is how to get past gatekeepers to interview with the person who can hire. (A large part of the research is deciding whether the target company is one you really want to work for.)"

In post #40 of Gatekeepers, I wrote,
"I started this thread when I was in one of my "mentoring modes" after going through a spate of folks bemoaning the fact they couldn't seem to get noticed when answering job ads.

It is not my intention to challenge Dick Bolles for "job mentor of the year." He and several others do an excellent job. I know a lot about the process, having been in it as agent, employer, and employee. I like to think I bring an analytical approach to the process (akin to problem solving in the Quality field.) If nothing else, I hope readers of this thread will think about solving hunt in the same way they think about solving a problem in the Quality field - methodically, with a constant eye on budget and return on investment."

Part of the analytical method, it seemed to me then and still does, is to learn as much about the target company as you can - very difficult with a "blind ad."

The nursing home thing drives home the point you have to ALSO assure yourself you'd like to work at a place. (note the difference between making a choice and having to take anything which comes along because you are desperate to earn money for food and shelter.)

However, taking a job because you are desperate does not obligate you to stop looking for the "right fit." I don't buy into "loyalty" as an excuse to stay at a bad fit job. Who are you being loyal to? yourself? your family? even the boss, who might be better off with someone who is not depressed because he's trapped in a bad job? Loyalty should not be confused with "grateful." You can be grateful - that requires "Thank you!" It does not require involuntary servitude (slavery) for the rest of your life!

Thanks for the input, little__cee.

Good discussion, Wes. However, I don't think I'll be creating a resume for job application in any foreseeable future at all.
The small truth here is that most persons in a position to hire other people are really clueless about the entire process of hiring people...
Should you consider starting a new thread for these clueless people, I'd be very interested.

I was told once, in an interview, that most organizations have a job opening and attempt to hire just to "fill a hole". The organizations try to find a living, breathing, individual and hope that they work out. Do you all agree and think that's true?

The place where I interviewed conducted extensive testing and several rounds of interviews with different people in the company to really try and find the best person with the best fit for the company, as opposed to just 'filling a hole'.

[In case you're wondering, I removed myself from that interview process for reasons unrelated to the interview process itself.]

I was told once, in an interview, that most organizations have a job opening and attempt to hire just to "fill a hole". The organizations try to find a living, breathing, individual and hope that they work out. Do you all agree and think that's true?

The place where I interviewed conducted extensive testing and several rounds of interviews with different people in the company to really try and find the best person with the best fit for the company, as opposed to just 'filling a hole'.

[In case you're wondering, I removed myself from that interview process for reasons unrelated to the interview process itself.]Yep! Atul and little_cee have legitimate concerns.

little_cee, perhaps you'd consider telling us the reasons you considered valid for dropping out of the interview/test process.

In my opinion,
Would-be employers who research backgrounds of candidates BEFORE an interview are wasteful and inefficient with their resources. Why waste money on checking references on candidates who might not "appeal" to you in a face to face interview, where you may determine they won't "fit" with your organization?

Similarly, many of the "tests" (psychological and aptitude, as well as practical competence in a necessary field) are also wasteful, except where there is a high security issue. Even then, a little bit of research and practice on the candidate's part can invalidate the results of ALL psychological tests and many aptitude tests. (maybe we'll take that up later this winter [summer for the folks from the land of OZ].)

Atul asks a legitimate question. OK, Atul. This is a holiday week in the States and I have out of town guests and family functions through Sunday. I will post a thread early next week which talks about the employment search from the employer's viewpoint.

I envision three main topics within the thread:

developing TRUE job requirements and realistic salary levels
writing ads and processing responses
the interview process
Can you think of any other points for the employer up to the point of issuing an offer of employment? While you all wait, try to think of ANY legitimate reason for an employer to run a blind box ad.

Probably yet another thread might cover establishing and structuring a "probation period" after employment begins in which to decide whether to "dissolve" the relationship with as little damage to either party as possible. In such a thread, we would probably discuss how a candidate should deal with a job offer and offer enlightenment on maintaining one's integrity and "soul" during the probation period.

What do you think?

I'd be especially interested in learning how you secured the interviews in the first place. Was it a lock because you were an insider? or did you have to go through gatekeepers who decided to grant or deny interview based on your resume?

I copied over the above message from another thread so I could answer the question here.

Please remember that I work for a major corporation (160,000 employees) but my following comments will give the readers some idea about how recruiting and interviewing works for that type of company.

- The company has a large internal "Intranet" website that has an Internal Job Posting system for jobs throughout the U.S. and internationally.

- Searches can be done geographically or by key word much like Monster.com. The jobs are posting internally for a few weeks and then the exact job description is posted externally at many job search sites. Resumes can be posted on the site also and applications are submitted electronically.

- Internal job postings include the name of the internal recruiter and the hiring manager. That made it possible for me to find out about jobs before I applied or to help me prepare for an interview. External candidates do not see the hiring manager name.

- It doesn't hurt to be an internal candidate but it won't secure you a job even if you are being displaced because of the merger. So the answer is no it was not a lock getting the job being an insider.

- Internal recruiters do act as gatekeepers but knowing the hiring manager's name allows you to go around them but that can get you in trouble since you are circumventing company policies. Of course if you know the hiring manager personally it makes it easier to stop by and ask them about the job but they still make you formally apply and the recruiters sets up the interviews and even extends the offer :bigwave: (or let you know if not :nope: ).

- My practice is only to apply for jobs that I qualify for (novel idea but it worked for me) so my resume supported the job qualifications. There were a few jobs that had poorly written job descriptions and my resume must have gotten screened out. As I learned the process more, I got better at reading between the lines on what the job descriptions meant. This problem probably exists for everyone looking for jobs. As job hunters we tend to focus on a well written resume but job seekers don't always put the same effort into the job description.

- I suspect that the hiring manager needs to work out how they want screening done with the recruiter. Internal applicants are probably fewer in number than what is received when opened to the public so less screening may happen. Company preference is to hire internally when possible but it does cause internal turnover that eventually causes someone to go outside.

- Putting in the usual buzzwords in your resume helps even internal screening since the initial contact was normally through the internal recruiter who knew about enough to ask a question about the buzzword even if they had no clue if your response was meaningful. For example, some did not know what Six Sigma was but knew it was important.

On the whole, I would not describe the entire process much different than the first time I interviewed here or any other external job search. One difference was it only took 5 weeks from job application to offer which is quick even internally and definitely unlikely for an external candidate.

Bill Pflanz

I copied over the above message from another thread so I could answer the question here.

Please remember that I work for a major corporation (160,000 employees) but my following comments will give the readers some idea about how recruiting and interviewing works for that type of company.

- The company has a large internal "Intranet" website that has an Internal Job Posting system for jobs throughout the U.S. and internationally.

- Searches can be done geographically or by key word much like Monster.com. The jobs are posting internally for a few weeks and then the exact job description is posted externally at many job search sites. Resumes can be posted on the site also and applications are submitted electronically.

- Internal job postings include the name of the internal recruiter and the hiring manager. That made it possible for me to find out about jobs before I applied or to help me prepare for an interview. External candidates do not see the hiring manager name.

- It doesn't hurt to be an internal candidate but it won't secure you a job even if you are being displaced because of the merger. So the answer is no it was not a lock getting the job being an insider.

- Internal recruiters do act as gatekeepers but knowing the hiring manager's name allows you to go around them but that can get you in trouble since you are circumventing company policies. Of course if you know the hiring manager personally it makes it easier to stop by and ask them about the job but they still make you formally apply and the recruiters sets up the interviews and even extends the offer http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/bigwave-d2.gif (or let you know if not http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/no.gif ).

- My practice is only to apply for jobs that I qualify for (novel idea but it worked for me) so my resume supported the job qualifications. There were a few jobs that had poorly written job descriptions and my resume must have gotten screened out. As I learned the process more, I got better at reading between the lines on what the job descriptions meant. This problem probably exists for everyone looking for jobs. As job hunters we tend to focus on a well written resume but job seekers don't always put the same effort into the job description.

- I suspect that the hiring manager needs to work out how they want screening done with the recruiter. Internal applicants are probably fewer in number than what is received when opened to the public so less screening may happen. Company preference is to hire internally when possible but it does cause internal turnover that eventually causes someone to go outside.

- Putting in the usual buzzwords in your resume helps even internal screening since the initial contact was normally through the internal recruiter who knew about enough to ask a question about the buzzword even if they had no clue if your response was meaningful. For example, some did not know what Six Sigma was but knew it was important.

On the whole, I would not describe the entire process much different than the first time I interviewed here or any other external job search. One difference was it only took 5 weeks from job application to offer which is quick even internally and definitely unlikely for an external candidate.

Bill PflanzI interpret what you say to mean (as if you itemized a list):

I had a head start on outside candidates because job usually not advertised to outsiders until insiders had a crack.
By knowing the actual hiring manager I was able to research both the job and how to set myself to be ready to interview with the hiring manager
Gatekeepers are inevitable, but as I gained more and more experience, I got better at crafting the resume and answers to preliminary questions to improve my chances at getting to interview with the hiring manager.
I did not get hired without an interview, no matter how sterling my resume.
I was extended a courtesy of learning when I was NOT selected for further processing for a position.
One major point I understand you making - the folks who write the job descriptions and listings often do a poor job and you had to "interpret" them and respond appropriately.

Wes

You interpreted everything correctly. :agree1: Hopefully my comments help some of those quality professionals out there who may want to try landing a job with a major corporation.

Bill

Jennifer brought up an interesting point http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=94489&postcount=62 in the companion thread about gatekeepers
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=85831&postcount=1
that MOST employers are not clued in on the precise definitions of Quality terms, nor are they aware that folks proficient in Quality tools can be efficient and effective in jobs that do NOT have the word "quality" in the title.
The point for us in this thread about resumes is to describe the functions you perform in terms the average business person can understand and relate to, without using arcane terms like "Taguchi DOE" or "RAB" or "ASQ" unless you also include a whole story of how (specifically) these will help benefit the company if you bring them to the new job.

The bottom line:
Your resume is a sales tool. You don't print sales brochures in a foreign language the target market can't understand.

My continuing theme throughout these "job hunt" threads is that often employers are very clueless about job recruitment and waste money and resources on useless things.

Here's a cartoon I made up to illustrate one of the dumber aspects of employer "muda."

Jennifer brought up an interesting point http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=94489&postcount=62 in the companion thread about gatekeepers
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=85831&postcount=1
that MOST employers are not clued in on the precise definitions of Quality terms, nor are they aware that folks proficient in Quality tools can be efficient and effective in jobs that do NOT have the word "quality" in the title.
The point for us in this thread about resumes is to describe the functions you perform in terms the average business person can understand and relate to, without using arcane terms like "Taguchi DOE" or "RAB" or "ASQ" unless you also include a whole story of how (specifically) these will help benefit the company if you bring them to the new job.

The bottom line:
Your resume is a sales tool. You don't print sales brochures in a foreign language the target market can't understand.

There's something that I swallowed last week, but will now say:

I have perused many advertised calls for help in managing organizational activities in various capacities. In almost every case, the advertisements specifically required Master's of Business Administration degree, followed by the typical X years of (fill in the blank) experience.

I've consistently read in career columns not to apply for positions where specific requirements (such as education) aren't met--"Don't waste the HR person's time" is the message, which I understand.

However, there's plentiful evidence that an MBA is not what they need. Look at the spectacular failures in business these days--the people in the news are very often MBAs from prestigious schools. They specialize in finance, marketing or something else, but their skills are not in efficiency or strategic organizational effectiveness.

What I have concluded is that there is a gap between what these organizations need and what they think they need. An organization whose highly placed members say "We don't need Quality, we build quality into our products" is, I feel (please correct me if I'm wrong) very likely unable to comprehend, never mind hire and appreciate, the value we bring unless we make ourselves look just as they do.

I can't do that, because I don't have the "qualifications" they understand. Trying to explain that I can indeed help them feels like spitting into the wind. I have blown interviews (in non-manufacturing industries, for example a newspaper publisher) solely upon that premise--they don't want help fixing their problems, they want someone to answer the phones or deliver the papers for carriers that don't come to work.

If you think I'm sinking into defeatism, please tell me plainly.

I will say, however, that from my observation the vast majority of nonmanufacturing organizations simply don't think as we do (measurable value of pragmatic defect prevention and fact based management) and I have not yet found a means to educate them sufficiently to see the need for people like me.

That's why I have written my books. If they hit the market and are successful, even then it would take some time to change the thinking prevalent now.

I have perused many advertised calls for help in managing organizational activities in various capacities. In almost every case, the advertisements specifically required Master's of Business Administration degree, followed by the typical X years of (fill in the blank) experience.

I've consistently read in career columns not to apply for positions where specific requirements (such as education) aren't met--"Don't waste the HR person's time" is the message, which I understand.

However, there's plentiful evidence that an MBA is not what they need. Look at the spectacular failures in business these days--the people in the news are very often MBAs from prestigious schools. They specialize in finance, marketing or something else, but their skills are not in efficiency or strategic organizational effectiveness.

There are plenty of failures by people with no degrees so don't pick on those that do have them. Any degree just means that you spent time at an educational institution until you collected enough hours to graduate. I always say that there are plenty of ignorant (not necessarily stupid) people who get degrees who cannot run a business and there are people with high school educations who are very successful.

If you can demonstrate that you can do something the MBA is not important. Wes has talked a lot about how to get past the gatekeeper so the MBA may not be as big an obstacle as you think. I have removed my MBA at times so the gatekeeper would not throw my resume in the can as over-qualified.

What I have concluded is that there is a gap between what these organizations need and what they think they need. An organization whose highly placed members say "We don't need Quality, we build quality into our products" is, I feel (please correct me if I'm wrong) very likely unable to comprehend, never mind hire and appreciate, the value we bring unless we make ourselves look just as they do.

I can't do that, because I don't have the "qualifications" they understand. Trying to explain that I can indeed help them feels like spitting into the wind. I have blown interviews (in non-manufacturing industries, for example a newspaper publisher) solely upon that premise--they don't want help fixing their problems, they want someone to answer the phones or deliver the papers for carriers that don't come to work.

Since you have conceded that they don't know what they need than there should be no obstacle in you getting an opportunity. If they don't know what they need then anyone can qualify. Think of it as not having a goal so it doesn't make any difference how you get there.


If you think I'm sinking into defeatism, please tell me plainly.

I will say, however, that from my observation the vast majority of nonmanufacturing organizations simply don't think as we do (measurable value of pragmatic defect prevention and fact based management) and I have not yet found a means to educate them sufficiently to see the need for people like me.

I have seen your comments over the past year and, not to sound harsh, but I do think you are sinking into defeatism. I went from manufacturing to non-manufacturing and found many commonalities. As a matter of fact, I found out that business is business and skills and knowledge are transferrable between the two. Maybe your defeatism is starting to show when you interview. Be positive and start thinking about why you can get a job and not why you can't.

If you think back about your life so far, I suspect you will agree that you have been blessed in many ways that others only wish for. Even if nothing else good happens to you then you have already had more to be thankful for than many others. There is a window of opportunity out there that may be shut or only slightly open, go try to push it up the rest of the way. One of the windows will finally open.

Have a good and safe holidays.

Bill Pflanz

As Bill suggests, many of us unconsciously let our emotions cloud our performance. Folks say, "Dogs can smell fear on a human." The same can be said for the pit bulls who purposedly try to make the recruiting process a trip through he!! for the job candidates.

I'm never completely sure whether the horrific attitude some recruiters and job interviewers project is due to

ignorance
intent
I have seen some folks I thought were pretty stable and well-grounded come out of interviews in tears after being subjected to a vicious stress interview.

I've also seen folks come out of interviews mad enough to kick stray cats and children after being mauled by incompetent, wishy washy interviewers who had no clue of how to conduct an interview.

SOLUTIONS:
There are tactics to deal with each kind of interview.

When the interviewer is mean and vicious, just stop the interview, get up and leave. Why continue to subject yourself to stress from a mean bully? Even if you are a karate champion, you prefer to run rather than stand up to a gang of toughs in a dark alley. Think of it this way - even if you win the battle of wits against an idiot, you still won't get the job. If you could get the job, would you really want to work for an organization that hired pit bulls to do its recruiting?
.
When the interviewer is just clueless and disorganized, it is time to consider taking subtle control of the interview, always coming back to the main topic when the interviewer goes off in some stream of consciousness reverie. I think there are many more clueless interviewers than venal ones. Everything else about the position and the company may be fine. If you've really done your research, you'll know the incompetent interviewer is just an anomoly. It is to your benefit to help that interviewer understand you are the answer he's been looking for.
The million dollar question:
"How do I know which is which and learn how to deal with each kind?"

Bill is right about one thing -
"I went from manufacturing to non-manufacturing and found many commonalities. As a matter of fact, I found out that business is business and skills and knowledge are transferrable between the two."

If you do a good enough job of preliminary research on the hiring organization, you can structure your resume and the answers to interview questions to focus on the skills, talent, and experience needed for the position.

Ultimately, only the job candidate can determine whether he is like a Famous Footwear chain store or like a custom shoe and bootmaker.


The Famous Footwear store can only sell what's in stock - no special orders. If you don't like what they have in your size, your only option is to go to another store.
.
The customer shoemaker will make you a perfect set of shoes or boots, regardless of your requirements.

So, today I happened to come across a horoscope. Since I don't subscribe to the astrology thing, I have no faith in them, so it doesn't make any difference whether it is mine or yours. These are always "cold reads" because people fill in the blanks to make them "fit." In any regard, make this one fit your situation and you may have a happier weekend.

Your flexibility is your greatest asset. While other people spend their time complaining about the change of pace, you welcome it with open arms. You have more of a 'when life gives you lemons, make lemonade' attitude than most people do. Your boss or parents might think that you can't possibly accomplish everything that you set out to do today, but as long as you keep your head down, you should be able to make sufficient -- and maybe even impressive -- progress.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/magic.gif

Thanks Bill, I will say I do know I sound defeatist at times. I wondered who would say that and when.

I think I didn't do a good job in communicating. I did not mean to knock those with degrees--I have one too. My intended point was that I do not like the assumption that the MBA degree is what candidates must have, and organizations do not consider other experience/education as relevant.

But that's all right. Perhaps there are plenty of MBAs to fill the needs of those around here who advertise for them.

It is important to remember that the best opportunity never gets posted in an ad. When I progress to a time and place where I can find my correct path, it won't be through an ad but will be through the new work and activities I'm doing since leaving manufacturing. This takes time.

It's true that I have managed well enough to a point, though not finishing what I'd started as I'd hoped. I've accomplished some things and their results are not necessarily ended.

Nor is the story over. There is still progress to be made, and as Wes has correctly said there is a crack open somewhere to slip through.

I believe there are forces not completely of our making at work, and I do agree I can improve my self-marketing. If a better marketing job would have sold me, like a banana split to someone who is sure they want a hot fudge sundae, then I do accept that responsibility.

It is important to remember that the best opportunity never gets posted in an ad. When I progress to a time and place where I can find my correct path, it won't be through an ad but will be through the new work and activities I'm doing since leaving manufacturing. This takes time.


Nor is the story over. There is still progress to be made, and as Wes has correctly said there is a crack open somewhere to slip through.

I believe there are forces not completely of our making at work, and I do agree I can improve my self-marketing. If a better marketing job would have sold me, like a banana split to someone who is sure they want a hot fudge sundae, then I do accept that responsibility.Jennifer makes some important points here that are worthwhile for any job seeker to consider:

the best opportunity never gets posted in an ad.
(absolutely - the best opportunity is the one that is created when you demonstrate a need to an employer (that he may or may not have been aware of) and then show how YOU can fulfill that need.)
the story isn't over [when you seem to hit a dead end] - there is a crack open somewhere to slip through.
(Often a job candidate is forced to make compromises. Only the candidate is in a position to make a value judgment of the various options and to choose the best compromise.)
I can improve my self-marketing.
(We can all improve our self-marketing. Job hunting is all about self-marketing. Employers can often choose among numerous candidates. The successful candidate is the one who makes the best use of cover letter, resume, interview, and focus on the task at hand (getting hired) to convince the employer to make a decision to be swayed by that combination of market features.)

Hi Wes,

Just a quick message to say that I have read both this and the other employment thread, and found the information extremely interesting. I'm considering seeking new employment in the new year and no doubt the tips that you have provided will help. :thanx:

I'm sure many others are reading the threads with interest.

Hi Wes,

Just a quick message to say that I have read both this and the other employment thread, and found the information extremely interesting. I'm considering seeking new employment in the new year and no doubt the tips that you have provided will help. :thanx:

I'm sure many others are reading the threads with interest.I sure hope you are correct, Phil. Thus, here's a snippet I picked up from a VERY WELL RESPECTED outplacement firm in Chicago. I'm taking advantage of "fair use" here because this is information the company WANTS potential job seekers to read. The bold face emphasis is mine, because it fits the general theme of our two threads:
http://www.challengergray.com/outofwork.aspx (http://www.challengergray.com/outofwork.aspx)
Out of Work?
In order to enter one of our outplacement programs, we require sponsorship by an employee’s company. The reason we cannot accept people without corporate sponsorship is that we cannot overcome the awkward ethical/functional dilemma inherent in working with an 'unsponsored' individual.

Good outplacement requires the freedom to counsel the client even when their wants conflict with their needs. In a 'retail' relationship, both parties are either consciously or subconsciously prone to define the client as a customer and therefore the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong tactically.

This problem is compounded by the fact that searching for a new position is about failure all the way until the end of the program when a job offer is secured. You don’t get an offer for two thirds of a job, and no one can say: 'You are now 67% completed in your job search.' This means that a 'retail' client is paying for a lot of failure and this failure is a frustration for both sides.

There is no easy recommendation or solution for your needs. James E. Challenger, our founder and the founder of the outplacement industry, has written a book Secrets of the Job Hunt which can be purchased by calling our office. Our best advice is to maintain discipline over the three variables you can control: (i) Who you see, (ii) How often you see people and, (iii) What you say when you are in front of them. These are the only parts of the search process you can control. Good luck in your search.

James Challenger, the founder of this company, has stated in many interviews (which I've heard and/or read) his belief that many job seekers hinder their effort by failing to SELL the employer on the candidate because they do not give concrete examples of the value of their skills, experience, and talents. (Sound familiar?)

In the Quality arena, we constantly talk about DOCUMENTATION versus ANECDOTAL "SMOKE" in demonstrating conformance to requirements. This theme doesn't change just because we switch from dealing with products to dealing with humans in determining whether they "conform to requirements."

As I looked through the Challenger website, I came across this eight page document I hadn't seen before.
http://www.challengergray.com/guidebook.pdf
It echoes many of the things we have written in our two threads. It's nice to have some validation from a professional firm like Challenger.

One striking quote from page 4:
"Once you have created a list of contacts and job leads, the next step is to begin making phone calls to arrange interviews. In each call, your goal is to contact an “action person,” someone who can see you and then offer you a job.

Contact the hiring authority, not HR. Human Resources rarely makes the final hiring decision, unless the job opening is in that department. The heads of the various departments determine when new people are needed, so it is critical to get their names. If you want to work in sales, then get the name of the head of sales.

The best way to obtain a manager’s name is simply by calling the company. (Avoid telling the switchboard the call is about a job or else face transfer to Human Resources)."

When "change agents" of my acquaintance talk about the change process, one thing many agree about is the need to have an organization-wide dissatisfaction with the status quo.

If you are unemployed or thinking about changing jobs (or even careers), you need to take your own temperature to see how "hot" you are for change. If you've been unsuccessful in your job hunt so far, maybe it's time you became dissatisfied with your present process in job hunting and consider something different.

Many folks like to start with a fresh slate for the new year. You won't get the full effect of the new one if you keep the old, scratched-up one around as a type of security blanket.

Lots of companies are announcing new initiatives for the coming year. That means staff changes and additions. Get in the swim and ferret out these opportunites BEFORE the companies get around to placing job ads. That way, you'll have a head start on the competition!

I'd like to hear what's working for you and whether any of the tips in this thread have been helpful.

So, I casually picked up my morning paper and turned to the business section to read the latest court updates of the big corporate fraud cases and opened the page to this story: (emphasis in blue is mine)

Fretting over a resume?
It may soon go way of the dinosaur

Published February 3, 2005, Chicago Tribune

Resumes are a vital part of the job search, and putting together the perfect portrayal of your skills and abilities is one of the hardest things job seekers have to do.

And sorting through them is one of the toughest tasks employers have.

That's why one human resource professional has come up with a dramatic solution to the resume problem: Get rid of them in their present form.

"As we look at today's recruiting demands, the resume has not kept pace," said Joseph P. Murphy, principal and vice president of Shaker Consulting Group, a management consulting firm in Cleveland that specializes in employee selection.

The firm designs programs for companies that want to automate their recruitment process.

"Resumes contain the wrong type of information," said Murphy, who has been in human resources for 25 years. The consultant is on the board of the Northern Ohio Human Resource Planning Society and a member of the workforce staffing and deployment panel of the Society for Human Resource Management. He points out that computerized recruitment is growing daily.

Since 1998, when his company began designing computerized programs for job applicants that can be scored and measured, Murphy has predicted the end of the resume as we know it.

He recently wrote an article on the subject that appeared on HR.com, a Web site for senior human resource professionals.

"We should do away with resumes as a selection criteria or screening tool," Murphy said.

From the point of view of the job seeker, the consultant says resumes do not allow you to present your real achievements.

"When you apply for a job online, you have to use certain key words to show up in search engines, and the result is that you are measured not for your ability, but for your word choices," he said. And you don't have an opportunity to point out your individual value, abilities or achievements.

Murphy knows job seekers agonize and labor endlessly over their resumes.

"A lot of soul gets poured into writing them," he observed. "Many people get professional help in creating a resume, and when they do, the resume is a reflection of their coach's writing skills, not theirs."

And the nitty-gritty of what will make you a valued employee is lost in the process.

With online job applications taking over recruitment, Murphy reports that his company has "clients who do not even see a resume at the front end but ask for them at the back end when the job offer is about to be made."

Instead of relying on the "outdated paper resume," Murphy says many firms now use a standardized questionnaire tailored to each job.

The questionnaires are posted on the Internet, given by phone through an 800 number or filled out by applicants who are invited to come to the company's offices and use its computer programs on site.

"Employers get more information that way than resumes would ever give them," he said.

Other technical programs replacing the resume that now are being used to measure skills and personalities include a simulated work sample, situational judgments, biographical data and work styles.

"Because they're still a stagnant paper document, and we have so many emerging technological solutions, resumes eventually will disappear," Murphy concluded.

----------

Carol Kleiman's columns also appear in Monday's and Tuesday's Business sections. Hear her on WBBM Newsradio 780 at 6:21 p.m. and 10:22 p.m. Mondays and 11:20 a.m. Saturdays. Watch her "Career Coach" segments on CLTV. E-mail ckleiman@tribune.com.

Remember that Murphy is in the business of selling these computer sorting programs to management. It is his job to make it as tasteful and appealing as possible. Kleiman is a columnist, not a reporter. She does not have a duty to dig out both sides of a story for a balanced presentation. (Essentially, she has merely reproduced a press release from Murphy.)

How does this article strike you as an employee?
as an employer?
Do you see this "future" as good?
bad?
Do you see it as inevitable?
Do you think it will reach high on the corporate ladder into management suites or do you think it will stay strictly at the staff level?

I'd like to read your comments.

Wes,
I think anytime there is a evolving process, as this is, I believe it to be a good start. Employees & employer should use there creative minds to come with better presentation forms of self & their needs. We would all be better off if we were in a job that is fulfilling to the employee & employer as well. This is what is being attempted in this article. I also think future employees should be about presenting ourselves in a realistic way to future employees.
Am I being to idealistic? Well maybe its about time before the world just passes us by and we go around from job to job clueless (if we can even keep a job).

Mooser

On being presented with in excess of 400 CV's I immediately reduced the decision making process by throwing half of them in the bin. The rationale being that I wouldn't want to give the job to anyone who was unlucky...

My very first thought - use a standardized form, get a standardized employee. I recently filled out a web based application - one of the questions was whether you had used/implemented TQM - an older "flavor of the month". Answer options were yes or no. If I answer truthfully, I've never worked for a company using the TQM philososphy. I've worked for other companies using different philosphies, or parts of them, and have applied all of the principles of TQM in several jobs.

I believe this approach will make it much easier for an HR department to justify exclusion of a candidate, and will probably stand up better in a court if they were ever sued for excluding candidates with a given age, race, gender, or ethnic background. It's :ca: , not a way to identify and select the superior candidate.

It's not easy selcting a good employee - at a prior employer I was selected to be part of an interview team for potential new hires into a unionized (but non-USW) steel mill. All the interviewers were supervisors who potentially could end up with the candidate at some time in their career, and HR supplied scripted question and answer sheets for us with very, very thorough questions - some of the best I've seen sitting on either side of the table. I saw some very good young people seeking employment with the company. Sixteen years ago, at a different company I witnessed a fantastic flameout/failure of the selection process - an engineer was hired (I'm assuming his references all checked out) in about 6 months he ran up about $30,000 on the corporate Amex card before he was terminated. Rumor had it the company ended up eating most of it.

The approach listed also makes an assumption that all/most important aspects of the position can be quantified adequately by the person setting up the software. Anyone want to take bets on that occuring at a 90% correct rate?

I wish I had known the Cove, when I was looking for work a year ago.

I sure have more fears about the downsides of the proposed process than I have about how good it will be for employees. It certainly will be good for HR departments -(the bosses, that is; all the clerks will be fired as superfluous.)

I agree with
My very first thought - use a standardized form, get a standardized employee. I recently filled out a web based application - one of the questions was whether you had used/implemented TQM - an older "flavor of the month". Answer options were yes or no. If I answer truthfully, I've never worked for a company using the TQM philososphy. I've worked for other companies using different philosphies, or parts of them, and have applied all of the principles of TQM in several jobs.
I'm still seeing lots of job ads for "experienced with QS9000" in the face of TS16949; also still seeing some ads that include
"MIL-I-45208A Inspection System Requirements" as one of the job functions listed.:frust: I would be tickled pink if I saw TQM - there are some European and Asian companies that still include that. It is also considered a factor in the Deming Award in Japan. (Different TQM than "our" flavor of the month.)

I wouldn't want to work for anyone unlucky enough to throw my resume away. :tg:
Welcome to the cove, Fast One - a little belated. :bigwave:
Sorry to say, if you throw your resume into the pile with all the other resumes, LUCK has everything to do with it, for both employer and employee candidate. Please review our companion thread:
the "Gatekeeper" thread: Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325)
to learn some techniques to help you avoid being in either "unlucky" group, employer or candidate.

I have been starting to get myself out into the Job market recently and have been doing many of the actions that have been suggested in this thread. I got to thinking about how to best present my resume as far as the format goes. From my experience on the hiring side of the game, it seems that chronological is the norm. Anyone have any thoughts on how to best layout the document. Include ideas on general flow of the information that is presented. Please include thoughts on the extent of detail on education and certifications etc that is appropriate. Specific achievements such as patents awarded I would suspect have an appropriate place in the document. Any thoughts on these areas would be appreciated.
I can certainly write volumes on accomplishments and how my experience could be applied to a variety of different companies/situations. I am struggling some with how much detail to provide. I am also struggling with the "voice" and attitude of the resume. Specifically, should the feel of the resume be very objective and rigid ("Just the facts") or is there a level of personality that should show through in the presentation.
I realize that there are no perfect answers for these questions but would be interested in what the various opinions on these subjects are. Thanks!

Here's the deal:

Tailor each resume you send to the job opening known to be available OR
for the job opening you hope to create.

If you feel that the background and experience of creating and gaining patents for innovations is going to help in the target position, by all means wax eloquent about the ones you have, but be sure to tie the fact that you have these patents with how you can help the target organization. If not, the mention of your patents may just muddy the water and give a false impression you want more money than the job is worth.

Similarly, if you give too much information (a five or six page curriculum vitae for a job as a Quality technician), you are hindering your chances of being taken seriously. (Wouldn't you wonder why Deming or Juran at the height of his career would apply for a Quality technician job?)

Chronological resumes are fine, but you run the risk of having to include nonpertinent jobs. Regardless, don't go back more than ten years, unless all the time was at one organization (my dad worked for only one employer from 1945 when he left the Army Air Corps to 1980's when he retired on disability.)
Education:
List degrees and schools, but not dates which would mark you as some old guy like me.
List professional associations and offices only if the profession fits the target job (don't list American Medical Association if you are seeking a job as an auto mechanic; don't list Society of Automotive Engineers if you are applying for job as a graphic artist.)
Don't EVER list religious or social affiliations unless you are applying for a job with the specific organization.

Personal "slant" versus "cold facts"
Your resume is an advertising document. You are trying to urge the reader to a specific action: arrange a job interview.

I can't emphasize enough the concept that every reader of that resume who can possibly hire you wants the answer to one specific question:
"What's in it for me and my organization if we hire you?"
Every fact you include in your resume should include a mini-story of how that is pertinent for the position being sought (usually by pointing out how helpful it was to the organization for whom you were working.)
So, you might say, "Reduced inventory costs 10%."
The better way might be, "Reduced inventory costs 10%, freeing up floor space to add a production machine which added $100,000 in net profit to the organization."

Above all, remember this fact: No one gets hired from a resume. The task of the resume is to provoke enough interest to generate an interview. The best way to provoke that interest is to show how you can benefit the organization. A laundry list of YOUR awards and certifications says absolutely nothing about how you will help the organization!

Wes, Thanks for the feedback! I have been enlisting some peers to review my current resume which is in chronological format and have been getting some excellent constructive critiscism. I am starting to think that a functional or Hybrid of Functional and Chronological resume would better showcase my abilities. I do not want to digress to far from the topic of this thread but would be interested in anyone's input concerning these other formats.

My main concern is that I will end up developing a resume that has a format that is not widely accepted. I would hate to be excluded from consideration based on the fact that my resume was in a functional format versus chronological. I have seen very few functional format resumes in my experience and am concerned that there may be some taboos concerning this style.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Wes, Thanks for the feedback! I have been enlisting some peers to review my current resume which is in chronological format and have been getting some excellent constructive critiscism. I am starting to think that a functional or Hybrid of Functional and Chronological resume would better showcase my abilities. I do not want to digress to far from the topic of this thread but would be interested in anyone's input concerning these other formats.
My main concern is that I will end up developing a resume that has a format that is not widely accepted. I would hate to be excluded from consideration based on the fact that my resume was in a functional format versus chronological. I have seen very few functional format resumes in my experience and am concerned that there may be some taboos concerning this style.
Thanks for your thoughts.
In my opinion, as long as it concerns communicating with potential employers about a position, it can't possibly be off topic here.

Functional resumes are ONLY looked at askance (wrongly in my opinion) when they appear to be an attempt to cover serious gaps in employment or a multitude of positions at different employers in a short period (job hopper.)

Regardless if these apply to you or you decide to use the format because it helps concentrate the skills and experience in more meaningful chunks, you may have to inoculate the reader beforehand with a strong message which says [paraphrased]:
"I understand the position requires the combination of skills and experience I have gained in working for several different organizations. In order to present those as they apply to the position, I have grouped them together, regardless of which organization gave me the opportunity to use them."

Regardless whether you use chronological, full functional, or hybrid, if you have gaps in your job history or a number of short-termed jobs, you also have to explain and inoculate against that. This is a tricky road, because you don't want to come off either as a pitiful figure or as an arrogant devil-may-care guy who job hops on a whim. (If gaps or number of jobs applies to you, start with Bolles' site (http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/) and look through closely for tips on handling the situation.) Above all, the employer wants assurance you'll be around a while if he hires you and that you won't leave on a whim or that he'll have to fire you because your personality is terrible.

Does this make sense? If not, write back.

One of the things that I am almost invariably asked when interviewed (Having only obtained an A.S. degree) is: "Do you intend to continue with your education?" I invariably reply that I do intend to but have been locationally challenged due to the proximity of my home and current employer to any institutions offering higher level degrees in my specific areas of expertise.

Is it appropriate to indicate in the education section that I desire to further my education? If so, what would be some good language to indicate this?


Also with regard to indicating skill sets; It seems to me that having a section that is a listing of ancillary skills would be a good way to ensure that the hiring personnel get to see that you have proficiencies with a specific software package, tool etc. I am thinking of a final section that lists these skills in free form i.e.:
Proficiencies:
M$ Office, Autocad v.10- Autocad 2005, Mitutoyo Geomeasure, Hands on use of tool making equipment, etc.

I would anticipate a fairly long list for myself. I think it may be a good way to ensure that a key-word or key capability is included in your resume without having to list 10 pages of how you have implemented each skill. Any thoughts?

I am intensively re-working my resume over this weekend and will appreciate any feedback.

Since you are under the gun for time, let's just deal quickly with the two issues.

Education: Knowing what you PLAN in your own future may be nice for organization to know in the interview to get a sense of what kind of guy you are, but it wasn't necessary to get you to the interview where the question was asked.

My advice: leave the topic for the interview.
How to answer in the interview:
"Yep. I am currently looking for either a local institution which offers what I want or a 'distance one' (internet.) Do you have any tips to offer?"

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

indicating skill sets:
Sure. Your way sounds fine. Just add this phrase to the head of the list of buzz words:
"I have experience and skill using the following which I hope will be a great advantage for the organization in performing the duties of [the target position.]"

Good luck on your campaign!

This is just a "bump" to bring this back to the top of the 24-hour cycle. Jobs are still hard to come by. Don't hamper your search by not being fully aware of your search options.

I am new here on the forum and have learned a quite a bit while reading this particular thread.
My question is about tailoring my resume to a particular job. There is a current opportunity I am interested in, but my experience is a little light in supervising a team. I'm not entirely inexperienced at it, and I know I have a natural talent for it. But managing subordinates is a small part of what I do, and proven supervisory experience is one of the emphasized requirements for the job.
Technically, supervising staff is a part of my current role, but not a big one. I have excellent interview skills, and all the faith in the world that I am perfect for the position. But I don't want to lie to ensure that I "get past the gatekeeper".
With the recent headlines about "padded resumes" and their detrimental consequenses, I wonder what in your opinion is the difference between tailoring my resume, and padding?

thanks
NALANDMARK

I am new here on the forum and have learned a quite a bit while reading this particular thread.
My question is about tailoring my resume to a particular job. There is a current opportunity I am interested in, but my experience is a little light in supervising a team. I'm not entirely inexperienced at it, and I know I have a natural talent for it. But managing subordinates is a small part of what I do, and proven supervisory experience is one of the emphasized requirements for the job.
Technically, supervising staff is a part of my current role, but not a big one. I have excellent interview skills, and all the faith in the world that I am perfect for the position. But I don't want to lie to ensure that I "get past the gatekeeper".
With the recent headlines about "padded resumes" and their detrimental consequenses, I wonder what in your opinion is the difference between tailoring my resume, and padding?

thanks
NALANDMARK
This is a great question!

If your current position does not offer concrete evidence that you know how to supervise people, you have to describe HOW you "know I have a natural talent for it?"

Why not try your explanation out on us here and let us critique it?

You'll need two versions:

for the cover letter to get an interview
for the interview, itselfOne of the big things we talk about in Quality is "documented evidence versus anecdotal evidence."

If your current job can't give documentation, how about former job, school, community organization, political campaign coordination? The idea is to focus on the skills you used to supervise folks, not the work that was performed, then explain how those skills are transferrable to the open position.

Almost forgot - Welcome to the Cove!:bigwave:

Thank you Wes!

I was expecting a nice curt reply about ethics, and you called me out to come up with the facts! I should have guessed coming from a Quality forum!:agree1:
Here are the facts;

The position I am applying for:

QUALITY ASSURANCE TEAM LEADER

Our client in MID / West Michigan, a progressive Chemical Processor has an immediate need for a Quality Assurance Team Leader with strong leadership abilities in a fast paced environment.

The ideal candidate must possess:

Ability to supervise - second and third shift employees within the Product Development Unit. Interpret and execute company policies, interact with all levels of the organization.

QUALIFICATIONS:

* Bachelor's Degree Chemical Engineering or Chemistry, required
* Must have 5-7 plus years hands on' Quality Assurance experience required.
* Dealing with Bulk Tankers raw material must be tested before going to production.
* Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems
* Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required.
* Will work in a lab environment
* Some travel required.

Hey, I know what you are saying, a blind ad. But if you read it, it looks like they are looking for a change in quality and don't feel that they have anyone inside that can do it. If they are talking about ensuring a quality operation I can't complain about that.
Anyway, partly due to your prompting, I have made a cover letter that I would love some feedback on. Please be brutally honest; I'd rather have it here than in the interview.

Thank you again.

Thank you Wes!

I was expecting a nice curt reply about ethics, and you called me out to come up with the facts! I should have guessed coming from a Quality forum!:agree1:
Here are the facts;

The position I am applying for:

QUALITY ASSURANCE TEAM LEADER

Our client in MID / West Michigan, a progressive Chemical Processor has an immediate need for a Quality Assurance Team Leader with strong leadership abilities in a fast paced environment.

The ideal candidate must possess:

Ability to supervise - second and third shift employees within the Product Development Unit. Interpret and execute company policies, interact with all levels of the organization.

QUALIFICATIONS:

* Bachelor's Degree Chemical Engineering or Chemistry, required
* Must have 5-7 plus years hands on' Quality Assurance experience required.
* Dealing with Bulk Tankers raw material must be tested before going to production.
* Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems
* Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required.
* Will work in a lab environment
* Some travel required.

Hey, I know what you are saying, a blind ad. But if you read it, it looks like they are looking for a change in quality and don't feel that they have anyone inside that can do it. If they are talking about ensuring a quality operation I can't complain about that.
Anyway, partly due to your prompting, I have made a cover letter that I would love some feedback on. Please be brutally honest; I'd rather have it here than in the interview.

Thank you again.
OK.
We are hitting the weekend doldrums here in the Cove (most Covers go to their REAL lives on the weekend) so answers will be infrequent until Monday. I'll try to remember to "bump" it so it comes to the top of the 24 hour cycle. If I forget to bump by 10 am your time, just add another post to the thread and it will come to the top of the heap.

I am pressed for time myself this weekend since I am giving a presentation early tomorrow morning and need to prepare for a big one Tuesday.

Here's a few brief observations you should consider until you see more replies:
The wording of the letter is weak and tentative. You need to be more direct and positive. This letter is going to an agency/3rd party recruiter - acknowledge that and say something to the effect:
Dear Sir or Madam,
I’d like to meet with you and your decision makers to explore how my skills and experience can best help your client achieve its goals.

You only get on further if you can get an interview - always press to get the interview!

The ad as you present it is very specific about two requirements:
* Bachelor's Degree Chemical Engineering or Chemistry, required
* Must have 5-7 plus years hands on' Quality Assurance experience required.
You must be SPECIFIC how you meet those or your letter will hit the round file. The letter doesn't convince ME you meet the minimum requirements and I WANT you to succeed. It will be a lot different with a recruiter looking at multiple responses. Emphasize the Pfizer learning in the following manner:
I have five years of world class Quality Assurance experience with two companies. My first three years were at Pfizer's Quality Laboratory in Holland, Michigan, in a variety of increasingly more responsible positions. I was able to take those three years of experience to my present employer to take the post of QA/QC Manager, which I continue to hold. Nobody cares at this point that you got rehired by a former employer - you are merely trying to validate your experience. Deal with the education situation as simply as possible - save the Horatio Alger struggle until the interview.I have a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from Grand Valley State University.
Next after education and experience which you will be required to document at some point in the process, the recruiter throws in some "scare language" to separate the mice from the men
* Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems
* Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required.
You will need some forceful story to convince anyone you really do have the ability to deal with 2nd and 3rd shift folks (essentially this means you are going to be all alone) whose livlihood may depend on how much production they can get out and who will be very unhappy with any lab nerd who shuts them down without having the personal charisma to command their respect. These guys won't take kindly to a flubbed test shutting off their income. (Think about the movie franchise "Ghostbusters" and all the flack the Ghostbusters put up with from people they were trying to help. Multiply it and you have an idea of what an apparently honest recruiter is trying to say.)

The way you do this is with a case history (one is all you need in the cover letter - two or more for the interview would be great) of a tough incident you handled well which illustrates how you maintained your cool, prevailed with your opinion, and won the respect of the folks who were of a different opinion. Introduce this case history with something like this:I have a keen appreciation for the situation of being a lone expert who has to make an unpopular decision stick with coworkers and stressed out subordinates and superiors.

When I . . .
I discovered that . . .
This meant . . . [cause of stress].
So I . . . [action] and calmed fears of others by explaining . . .
The end result was that [process improvement which gave big benefit to organization.]At the end of your letter, dump this weak ending
If you are seeking a person with extensive experience in a quality lab, in-depth knowledge of laboratory supervision, and the ability to maintain quality procedures no matter the pressure, then I am the right person for this job.

In the next couple of days, I will contact you to ensure receipt of the attached. I would entertain the opportunity to discuss this position further. Contact me at (xxx) xxx-xxxx to schedule an interview.

Sincerely,with something short and to the point like
Please call or email me to arrange an in-person or phone appointment where we can discuss your client’s requirements and how I can help meet them.

Sincerely,
Don't forewarn the guy you are going to contact him - how can you? It's a blind ad! If he doesn't answer, don't bother checking whether he got it in any way shape or form - this is the equivalent of a "Hail Mary" pass. If it works, you'll be a hero, if it doesn't, you know you need to keep looking and maybe go back over the basics of looking. Of course he knows what he's looking for - he wrote and placed the ad for pity's sake!

Don't bother sending a resume with this cover letter. You give enough information to whet his appetite to get a call or email. You also don't have to add a gratuitous line like "Resume available upon request or available at interview." When you get the call will be soon enough to worry about dealing with that.

Some tips:

Double check the voice mail message on your phone - is it professional (no toddler saying, "Daddy can't come now, he's giving me a bath!") Some folks get a cell phone just for this purpose with voice mail so no kids inadvertently answer or tie up the line. You can make outgoing calls on any phone and not run up the cell bill.
Get a separate free email box (Yahoo or hotmail) which is just for job hunting. No one will think less of you for this. Have email rigged to send a "vacation notice" in response to every incoming mail which says something to the effect, Please ensure I have all necessary contact information if you need a reply. I check this mailbox every 24 hours and will return a response the following business day. Call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx if you need to reach me right away.I think this should be a good start for the weekend.

Thank you again Wes for your honest assessment. Here is the revision I worked on over the weekend. If anyone has any assessment please make a comment.
Thanks

Thank you again Wes for your honest assessment. Here is the revision I worked on over the weekend. If anyone has any assessment please make a comment.
Thanks
Don't bother repeating what the guy asked for in the first paragraph or anywhere - just incorporate an answer in a declarative sentence.

Make this more formal -
Re: QUALITY ASSURANCE TEAM LEADER - Michigan
Dear Sir or madam:

I’d like to meet with you and your decision makers to explore how my skills and experience can best help your client achieve its goals.
(you are addressing decision makers at the agency in THIS letter)

Don't bother counting out your points (first, second, etc.) If the sentence doesn't make it clear what requirement you are addressing, you've lost the reader before he gets to "Second." Numbering them makes you look like a fourth grader writing "how I spent my summer vacation."

This paragraph
Furthermore, as Quality Manager, I am responsible for making the unpopular decisions to ensure continued quality. When I notice an instrument not meeting requirements, I “red tag” it out of service. I ensure that the Technical Manager knows exactly how the instrument needs to perform to be allowed back into production. I actively monitor the correction to ensure that the instrument is returned to production expeditiously.
does not begin to address the "deal breaker" requirement I wrote about

* Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems
* Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required. You will need some forceful story to convince anyone you really do have the ability to deal with 2nd and 3rd shift folks (essentially this means you are going to be all alone) whose livlihood may depend on how much production they can get out and who will be very unhappy with any lab nerd who shuts them down without having the personal charisma to command their respect. These guys won't take kindly to a flubbed test shutting off their income. (Think about the movie franchise "Ghostbusters" and all the flack the Ghostbusters put up with from people they were trying to help. Multiply it and you have an idea of what an apparently honest recruiter is trying to say.)

The way you do this is with a case history (one is all you need in the cover letter - two or more for the interview would be great) of a tough incident you handled well which illustrates

how you maintained your cool,
prevailed with your opinion, and
won the respect of the folks who were of a different opinion.Introduce this case history with something like this: I have a keen appreciation for the situation of being a lone expert who has to make an unpopular decision stick with coworkers and stressed out subordinates and superiors.

When I . . .
I discovered that . . .
This meant . . . [cause of stress].
So I . . . [action] and calmed fears of others by explaining . . .
The end result was that [process improvement which gave big benefit to organization.]
Dealing with one lab tech is not dealing with the equivalent of shutting down an entire plant and facing angry coworkers and superiors who stand to lose work and money because there is no production.

Here's the deal:
"You only have one chance to make a good first impression."
With a blind ad, your cover letter has to get the reader's juices flowing to the point where he says, "Wow! I got to meet this guy just to see if he's real!"

Sorry, but this letter didn't do that for me and I doubt it would get an interview with anyone unless he was getting paid by the number of interviews he makes, not on how many he passes on to the next step in the process. (If a guy spends his time interviewing people he is pretty certain won't make the grade, his superiors look at HIM like he's an idiot for wasting time on losers and figure he doesn't know how to separate winners from losers by their cover letters. If your letter doesn't make the grade, why should the guy expect an in-person interview will be better?)

I'm going to take a break for a day or two on your case and see what other replies come from our Covers. I realize you are anxious to get moving, but sending a bad letter now is worse than sending a good one a little late.

Anyone else with comments? How about some of the recruiters who visit? Any comments for our newbie trying to pique the interest of a blind listing?

Anyone else with comments? How about some of the recruiters who visit? Any comments for our newbie trying to pique the interest of a blind listing?
Wes, your advice here has been very good, and there isn't a lot that I would add. I've attached a marked-up version of the cover letter that's punched up a bit and subtly addresses an area of concern for the employer:Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required.

Here's how I would revise your letter. Take it with a grain of salt, I’m no expert.

It’s been said before, but it bears repeating – this company is clearly looking for someone who gets what they want. They need someone who can decide to shut the line down, and then GET IT DONE. Your letter needs to say “I can make the decision, I can get the job done, and if people get mad, I can take the flak” not only in your words, but in the tone of your writing.

Just my two cents worth.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with this. The difference between one week ago and now is immeasurable. I now am tackling the toughest part, the "forceful story". In the latest incarnation of my cover letter I have provided two examples of stories, each with my comments on their prospective merits. If anyone has any other comments that they would like to add I would appreciate it. Thank you again.

I think you dwelled too much on the negative aspects. Just not as professional as it should be. Everyone knows QMs make unpopular decisions, but these are based on compliance with requirements.
I wouldn't infer production supervisors are arrogant by confirming you know how to do your job. Notification is sufficient to communicate the status, reason and alternate plans.
Just a few thoughts to be constructive. I'm sure you are good at what you do, and have what it takes to do the job.

I think you dwelled too much on the negative aspects. Just not as professional as it should be. Everyone knows QMs make unpopular decisions, but these are based on compliance with requirements.
I wouldn't infer production supervisors are arrogant by confirming you know how to do your job. Notification is sufficient to communicate the status, reason and alternate plans.
Just a few thoughts to be constructive. I'm sure you are good at what you do, and have what it takes to do the job.
I agree with Ralph; you already said that you have experience dealing with "entrenched, long term team members," so let it go at that. You don't need to tell stories or give examples--you've responded directly to the qualifications listed in the ad. You have them, you've informed the addressee affirmatively that you have them, and that you're interested. At this point, unless they want to see a résumé, that's all you need to say.

I disagree! You MUST address the issue of the two points in the ad:
* Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems
* Proven ability to lead strong willed, long term team members, required.

If you do not, your letter will go in the circular file. Recruiters may be a lot of things, but they aren't stupid or forgetful. The guy will have his list of requirements in mind as he scans each letter. First responses will go to the folks who covered EVERY item. If you don't address the issue, it is the same as saying you don't meet the requirement.

Recruiters put these kind of trap doors in job listings to help them weed out the unfit and unwary. If it didn't work in their opinion, they wouldn't continue to do it.

My guess, after reading several revisions, is that nalandmark does not have real experience in facing down pressure from colleagues, subordinates, AND superiors with an unpopular judgment call.

Reading between the lines of the job listing (even in the skeletal form it has been described to us) tells me this recruiter is being unusually candid in describing the kind of pressure a job candidate may face when on the job. Further interpolation tells me the open position has probably been a revolving door for precisely the reason incumbents can't take the pressure.

Perhaps nalandmark does NOT have the requisite experience and aptitude for facing such flack. Many of us here in the Cove are experienced warriors in the battle. As I look at nalandmark's Profile, I see his past two years have been at an extremely small company where everyone probably acts like "family." Previously, he was at Pfizer, which has a reputation of being a civilized place to work. I can't imagine any tales of 2nd and 3rd shift workers at Pfizer grumbling if an incoming or outgoing shipment got put into quarantine because of a suspected nonconformance.

I further imagine nalandmark feels stymied in growth opportunities at a small company and wants to broaden his horizons.

This particular opening seems like a tough fit based on what I've seen so far. I envision a recruiter making a similar judgment. I have a lot of experience putting a positive spin on a story, but I need something of substance to spin. I don't see it so far. Most recruiters will not be as charitable of their time and energy as we are in the Cove. This recruiter will just move to the next candidate.

I disagree! You MUST address the issue of the two points in the ad.


If you do not, your letter will go in the circular file. Recruiters may be a lot of things, but they aren't stupid or forgetful. The guy will have his list of requirements in mind as he scans each letter. First responses will go to the folks who covered EVERY item. If you don't address the issue, it is the same as saying you don't meet the requirement.

Recruiters put these kind of trap doors in job listings to help them weed out the unfit and unwary. If it didn't work in their opinion, they wouldn't continue to do it.

The issue was addressed by the simple expedient of the applicant saying that he had experienced with entrenched long-term employees. If, as you suggest, recruiters aren't stupid, they don't need to be bludgeoned three paragraphs of the bloody obvious. Having been faced on many occassions with stacks of letters and resumes, I know from personal experience that brevity is not only the soul of wit--it's a sign of clear thinking and being able to cut to the heart of the matter. I don't need the applicant's life history or tales of accomplishments in a cover letter. The applicant in this case concisely and clearly showed that he had the qualifications listed in the ad. That's all that recruiters want to see in a cover letter.

The issue was addressed by the simple expedient of the applicant saying that he had experienced with entrenched long-term employees. If, as you suggest, recruiters aren't stupid, they don't need to be bludgeoned three paragraphs of the bloody obvious. Having been faced on many occassions with stacks of letters and resumes, I know from personal experience that brevity is not only the soul of wit--it's a sign of clear thinking and being able to cut to the heart of the matter. I don't need the applicant's life history or tales of accomplishments in a cover letter. The applicant in this case concisely and clearly showed that he had the qualifications listed in the ad. That's all that recruiters want to see in a cover letter.
OUR opinion is less important than the opinion of the gatekeeper who will read the letter.

Only time will tell which of us had more insight into the frame of mind of the recruiter.

Must have ability to shut down production due to raw material testing problems

Just a penny's worth.

Why would anyone want to shut down production due to testing problems?
Is the testing procedure ambiguous? Does it fail MSA? Is this question a test to see what someone would do if a test procedure fails?

What about doing the test again? What about isolating and trying to run a controlled batch?

Regardless of the testing problem, there is still a demand to meet customer shipment with the quantity and quality at expected levels.

I can't imagine telling the customer " Oops, sorry, we can't ship product to you today because of a raw materials testing problem?

Just another penny's worth.

To get by the gatekeeper, I pay a gatekeeper $100 to $200 to write my resume for me and get about a 30% response rate.

OUR opinion is less important than the opinion of the gatekeeper who will read the letter.
Absolutely. The value here is that the OP has the opinions of several experienced people and a new perspective on his efforts.

Only time will tell which of us had more insight into the frame of mind of the recruiter.
As David Letterman would say, this is not a competition, so please--no wagering. A lot depends on the market, the skills of the recruiter, time constraints and a lot of other variables that might contribute to how the applicant's letter is received. If the applicant is hired or never hears from the recruiter, there will probably be no way of telling what the cause(s) might have been.

Just a penny's worth.

Why would anyone want to shut down production due to testing problems?
Is the testing procedure ambiguous? Does it fail MSA? Is this question a test to see what someone would do if a test procedure fails?

What about doing the test again? What about isolating and trying to run a controlled batch?

Regardless of the testing problem, there is still a demand to meet customer shipment with the quantity and quality at expected levels.

I can't imagine telling the customer " Oops, sorry, we can't ship product to you today because of a raw materials testing problem?
Just as a clarification:
In actual practice, processors of bulk materials delivered in tank cars or hopper cars generally have a two-step inspection process for "suspect material."

The initial inspector (or anyone) raises an issue the particular carload may be suspect and "quarantines" or segregates the shipment for followup.
After further testing or conferral with competent advisors who may issue a formal waiver, the shipment is declared conforming or not conforming. This followup may require an extra day or so to complete.

The point at issue becomes what happens to co-workers whose output is crippled (along with their paychecks) because they don't have raw material to work with. In some organizations, and apparently the one the recruiter is writing about falls in this category, attitudes of "long-entrenched workers" are that their pay is diminished, but not the pay of the nerd who ordered the shutdown. This "us vs. them" concept fosters resentment and that can manifest itself in many forms from subtle to outright brutality. Back in the 1920's and 1930's, mine workers were known to retaliate against safety officers who shut down sections of the mine, depriving miners of work. (It never seemed to enter into the workers heads to look at the long term that the safety officer might be saving their lives, only at the short term of what that week's paycheck would be.

Similarly, the lab nerd caught in the situation described in the job listing needs to have the knowledge and the force of personality to get the big picture across to affected workers that assuring quality starting ingredients will keep them ALL employed over the long term. "Better safe than sorry," as my mom would say.

Bottom line:
Ultimately, the blocked or quarantined shipment may be released into production, but everyone needs to have faith that the lab nerd is doing his best to limit false alarms. Faith that an alarm today may save their jobs tomorrow.

On his part, the lab guy has to be on constant alert to avoid "crying wolf."

I disagree! You MUST address the issue of the two points in the ad:

Wes, I am trusting your judgement on that one, and I think I will include the forceful story, if I can somehow make it forceful enough.


My guess, after reading several revisions, is that nalandmark does not have real experience in facing down pressure from colleagues, subordinates, AND superiors with an unpopular judgment call.

You seem to have a shrewd understanding of someones profession by looking at just the cover letter. But you are wrong that I don't make unpopular decisions on a regular basis. My current boss uses "quality" as a marketing tool, instead of the right way to do business . He gives creadance to what I say only when it doesn't affect his bottom line. He is really passive aggressive and only gets stressed when I tell him he is wrong about something that he knows he is right about. (Even when he is not right)

Reading between the lines of the job listing (even in the skeletal form it has been described to us) tells me this recruiter is being unusually candid in describing the kind of pressure a job candidate may face when on the job. Further interpolation tells me the open position has probably been a revolving door for precisely the reason incumbents can't take the pressure.

My take was that the position was open through some sort of attritian, and the manager sees an oportunity to fill the position with someone who will do it right. Of course, I am a glass half full kinda guy.

Perhaps nalandmark does NOT have the requisite experience and aptitude for facing such flack. Many of us here in the Cove are experienced warriors in the battle. As I look at nalandmark's Profile, I see his past two years have been at an extremely small company where everyone probably acts like "family."
That was the idea when I took the position, but as most of you know being in charge of quality is not the best way to make friends. In fact, the "family'' atmosphere has worn off a long time ago, and now I frequently have to call the staff out, including the boss,for not maintaining basic quality control procedures.
Previously, he was at Pfizer, which has a reputation of being a civilized place to work. I can't imagine any tales of 2nd and 3rd shift workers at Pfizer grumbling if an incoming or outgoing shipment got put into quarantine because of a suspected nonconformance.
Wanna bet? Try telling the off shift supervisor his sample isn't as good as he knows it is and see how civil they are.

I further imagine nalandmark feels stymied in growth opportunities at a small company and wants to broaden his horizons.

I'd be lying if I said there was alot of growth potential at this firm. But I actually want to leave for different reasons:
Money is always an issue and after the latest layoffs I'm the most expendable.
I want to make improvements to our quality system, but quality is not part of the culture.
I want to get into a position that is based on the quality of the product; there are less grey areas in that environment.
I won't deny it, the money is better.

This particular opening seems like a tough fit based on what I've seen so far. I envision a recruiter making a similar judgment. I have a lot of experience putting a positive spin on a story, but I need something of substance to spin. I don't see it so far. Most recruiters will not be as charitable of their time and energy as we are in the Cove. This recruiter will just move to the next candidate.
The thing is this is what I did at Pfizer! I was in the quality lab, often on off shifts. I have shut down production because of my analysis. I have been questioned about my skills after doing it. I did ensure the supervisor that I knew what I was doing. I have been managing employees in my current role. I'm just having trouble showing that "I've been there and done that" in the way that you are suggesting. Wes, you have been nothing but honest with me and I really appreciate it, I guess I want to know is it better to put in a story with questionable bite, or just leave the story out?

I just came up with this revision. Let me know what you think.

I just came up with this revision. Let me know what you think.

I think it's too negative. You say,

. I have shut down production while at Pfizer. I have shut down production at my current job.

It sounds like the next line will be, "I shut down production where ever I go, and I'll shut down your production too, if you're not careful."

Look. I'm trying to be as frank as I can without being insulting.

There are ways to make normally unpalatable material so that recipients can swallow it without retching. The mark of the experienced, capable person tasked with presenting bad news is that he makes it presentable so that recipients are grateful to receive it now, rather than later when it can do more damage. As I wrote in one of the above posts Similarly, the lab nerd caught in the situation described in the job listing needs to have the knowledge and the force of personality to get the big picture across to affected workers that assuring quality starting ingredients will keep them ALL employed over the long term. "Better safe than sorry," as my mom would say.

Bottom line:
Ultimately, the blocked or quarantined shipment may be released into production, but everyone needs to have faith that the lab nerd is doing his best to limit false alarms. Faith that an alarm today may save their jobs tomorrow.

On his part, the lab guy has to be on constant alert to avoid "crying wolf."As Jim writes, you have to avoid appearance of being a guy who relishes the power of shutting down a line. It would be like being the guy who brags about being the executioner at a prison.

If I write what MY answer to the job listing would be, you might be tempted to copy it, but that would be unfair both to you and the recruiter. It would be extremely difficult for you or anyone to maintain the facade of having the depth and variety of experience I possess for more than a few minutes during an interview. Experienced managers like Rob Nix or Jim Wynne or many others here at the Cove could similarly make their own responses and be able to defend and expand upon them during an interview and reasonably expect to get through to the next level of interviews.

The overwhelming question is: "Would we make the effort to go for the job ourselves?" Probably not. None of us has any idea of who your competition will be to get the listed job. What we do know is that you MUST get the attention of the gatekeeper to get to the next step (interview) and your current letter will not stand against even mediocre competition. Right now, the most important person you have to influence is the gatekeeper who will either act on your letter or discard it.

It's been a long time since we had any addition to this thread. Is everyone happily and profitably employed?

In another thread (What do job candidates want to see in job listings? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=16988)), we are raising the topic of what an employer should put in his job listing to get the right candidate. Any employers got any comments about what they do or don't want to see in a candidate resume?

Some of you have probably gotten new positions since we began this thread. Did this thread or its companion (Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325) ) help you?

It's been a long time since we had any addition to this thread. Is everyone happily and profitably employed?

In another thread (What do job candidates want to see in job listings? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=16988)), we are raising the topic of what an employer should put in his job listing to get the right candidate. Any employers got any comments about what they do or don't want to see in a candidate resume?

Some of you have probably gotten new positions since we began this thread. Did this thread or its companion (Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325) ) help you?Monday "bump!" Comments?

really? but why do you ask the informations about high school?!!! :lmao:

The advice on here is indeed very useful, and I find the insight from those experienced in varied perspectives quite interesting. I'd like to say, good resumes and cover letters are certainly not the product of one draft one shot, it's good! Rather, a good cover letter and resume should be reviewed and revised, critiqued, and revised until you achieve what you feel is the best you can produce without presenting false information.

Another thing I take into great consideration on cover letters is the flow and style. If i've done my homework I already know what the company is looking for, what I have that makes me suitable, and what items I want to cover in the letter.....the next step to me is to make that cover letter shined and polished in it's style and use of language.

Anyways, I wanted to bring this thread back up to say thank you for the useful information. As always the cove offers such an abundance of advice and information, I'm glad I've found this forum.

I'm still eager to know if any of these job hunt threads have been helpful to someone in hiring or getting hired. If so, how about a testimonial for the next crop of job seekers?

long long discussion but real interest me.
I have to take time out to read all these stuff.
thanks to all participants.:applause:

On a similar note...

Say I'm interested in applying to a large business which has multiple positions which interest me, they've advertised one opening in particular which I would customize my cover letter to...would it then be acceptable to have a generalized sentence along the lines "I would also be amenable to discussing other positions within XXX Corp. in which my skills and knowledge would be an asset."? Or do you believe I should keep all focus on the position which I know there is an opening for?

Your input on this would be quite appreciated.

On a similar note...

Say I'm interested in applying to a large business which has multiple positions which interest me, they've advertised one opening in particular which I would customize my cover letter to...would it then be acceptable to have a generalized sentence along the lines "I would also be amenable to discussing other positions within XXX Corp. in which my skills and knowledge would be an asset."? Or do you believe I should keep all focus on the position which I know there is an opening for?

Your input on this would be quite appreciated.
In the very first post of this thread, I wrote (color and size emphasis added for effect in stressing the point pertinent to your question),
I believe the primary reason is that the candidate has neglected the first step in the job search - he hasn't decided the kind of job he wants and is suited for.

I have seen countless resumes begin with
Objective: a management position where I will have a chance to grow and expand my skills
I usually stop reading right there.

How about:
Objective: . . .Open to a wide variety of positions within an organization assisting in . . .
"assisting" is a sure sign of a "follower" and "wide variety" tells me he doesn't know what he wants and is hoping I will figure out what he's good for. We'll never know, because it hits the circular file.

Get my drift?
If you want to convince a hirer you are right for the job, you have to be convinced yourself. Any hint you are not convinced puts your resume in the trash.

That's a relatively narrowminded "blinders on" perspective I think. Perhaps the applicant is equally talented, qualified, and interested in varying positions (as their resume displays) and simply wants to add a subtle suggestion that opens the reader up to that possibility so that if the position is already filled they might be considered in other areas.

But I do get your drift, the focus should be completely on the job opening with nothing to distract from that.

I do always write my covers with the assumption that the reader has ADHD and perceives application review as a negative task, i.e. concise and focused, I was just curious if there's a good way to nudge the employer to say "this applicant is not limited to only this position", which in my perspective certainly does not infer "indecisive".

Many thanks for the advice :tg:

That's a relatively narrowminded "blinders on" perspective I think. Perhaps the applicant is equally talented, qualified, and interested in varying positions (as their resume displays) and simply wants to add a subtle suggestion that opens the reader up to that possibility so that if the position is already filled they might be considered in other areas.

But I do get your drift, the focus should be completely on the job opening with nothing to distract from that.

I do always write my covers with the assumption that the reader has ADHD and perceives application review as a negative task, i.e. concise and focused, I was just curious if there's a good way to nudge the employer to say "this applicant is not limited to only this position", which in my perspective certainly does not infer "indecisive".

Many thanks for the advice :tg:What do you expect? I tell it like it is, NOT as you would like it to be. My "narrow view" is just factual and what most (not all) "gatekeepers" AND those with hiring authority have as
guidelines or policy in reviewing applicants.

There are exceptions, but I can't think of any with a real probability of occurring in today's job market.

Let's take one scenario and see how it plays out:

Company advertises
"Director of Quality" plus
"Quality Manager" plus
"Quality Supervisor."
The expectation of the hiring authority is that candidates for each position will have have different levels of experience, skill, knowledge, and probably even charisma!

A fellow who qualified for Director of Quality would be viewed with suspicion if he added to his resume "by the way, if you can't see me as Director of Quality material, I'll also want to be considered for the Quality Manager or Quality Supervisor positions you advertised."

That kind of statement signals the candidate is

not confident of his own qualifications, or
desperate, or
both

Most hiring managers think a desperate guy who will take a job far below his real qualification is just "temporary" and has "one foot out the door" until he finds a job to fit his qualifications. Hiring employees is a pragmatic business. No hiring manager is willing to take a chance on a guy he figures will leave in a heartbeat and leave the company in the lurch.

Thanks Wes for pointing me in the direction of this post.

It is quite a difficult task at times - certainly at times of redundancy or unemployment - to put a very positive slant on ones thinking, let alone on your writing. One thing I used to write was "constantly striving for" which sounded as though I was never quite achieving. To me it sounded perfectly positive at the time. Now I realise how it can be read. It is these subtleties in the writing of the English language that are sometimes forgotten.

My only advise is to write it down, then leave it for a while. Then come back and read it and ask yourself, just how is it that these words could be misconstrued? Then go away and do the same again, several times!

Oh, and keep your fingers crossed! This always helps :D

Thanks Wes for pointing me in the direction of this post.

It is quite a difficult task at times - certainly at times of redundancy or unemployment - to put a very positive slant on ones thinking, let alone on your writing. One thing I used to write was "constantly striving for" which sounded as though I was never quite achieving. To me it sounded perfectly positive at the time. Now I realise how it can be read. It is these subtleties in the writing of the English language that are sometimes forgotten.

My only advise is to write it down, then leave it for a while. Then come back and read it and ask yourself, just how is it that these words could be misconstrued? Then go away and do the same again, several times!

Oh, and keep your fingers crossed! This always helps :DYep. It is a good idea to let a cover letter (and even the resume) ripen a bit before sending it on. I also urge everyone to find SOMEONE they trust to give a frank review of the document besides their own review after it has had a chance to ripen.

I had a business partner in the 1990s who had one of the best BS detectors I've ever seen. He'd look at a document (whether it was one of my sales letters or a [supposedly] factual report I wrote on a manufacturing process) and almost immediately begin slashing words and writing big comments in red ink like the following:


REALLY!?
YOU WROTE "TRUST ME" - THAT CALLS EVERYTHING YOU WROTE INTO QUESTION
REMEMBER: "WIIFM" IS OUR CONTINUAL COMMAND FROM THE CUSTOMER - WHERE IS HIS BENEFIT?

What do we do when we do not possess Technical know how when only those people are hired who have the technical skills? I have done MSc Statistics a decade back however, companies are hiring only those people like have strong background of engineering, dyes, worked with FDA.:nopity:

Well, it's been almost a year since the last post in this thread. I just finished rereading every post (even cleaned up some of my old typos!) and I am glad to see the advice throughout the thread holds up especially well in this current economic climate.

One or two of the posters in this thread have moved on, not visiting the Cove in more than a year. I hope they moved on to greener pastures as a result of what they learned from this thread.

In one of my posts, I wrote
Some tips:

Double check the voice mail message on your phone - is it professional (no toddler saying, "Daddy can't come now, he's giving me a bath!") Some folks get a cell phone just for this purpose with voice mail so no kids inadvertently answer or tie up the line. You can make outgoing calls on any phone and not run up the cell bill.
Get a separate free email box (Yahoo or hotmail) which is just for job hunting. No one will think less of you for this. Have email rigged to send a "vacation notice" in response to every incoming mail which says something to the effect, Please ensure I have all necessary contact information if you need a reply. I check this mailbox every 24 hours and will return a response the following business day. Call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx if you need to reach me right away.

Only yesterday, I called a phone number for a person who had left a flyer on my doorstep advertising a car detailing service and was treated to a two minute recording of some heavy metal band with no further information to indicate whether I had even reached the correct number (my redial feature confirmed the number was the same as the flyer) plus my hearing was so jumbled by the music I have no idea whether there was even a "beep" to indicate I could record a message.

Since I had a busy day ahead of me, I chose not to make an effort to educate this person on how to get my business, but merely put the flyer in my recycle bin.

Faced with dozens or even hundreds of resumes and applications, most recruiters and their gatekeepers follow a similar course of action - if the cover letter and resume and subsequent followup contact don't present a case for the candidate clearly and effectively, it's easier to put it in the recycle bin and check the next candidate.

PLEASE TAKE THIS MESSAGE TO HEART!
I want every reader of this thread to be as successful as he can be in his job hunt, but it won't happen by magic. There is a process which works. If you argue that the process is old and outmoded, you may be right, but that won't change the mindset of the folks looking at YOUR cover letter and resume. If you don't sell them on the idea you can be a valuable addition to their organization, your message will hit the recycle bin just like my would-be car detailer's.