It has finally happened - - I have experienced the worst auditor ever. Is there a website or listing that has a listing of auditor competencies? Had I been able to see feedback on this lady, I would have held off until I could get another auditor.

I have had good auditors and I have had bad auditors - - there should be an area where we can post these experiences?

Diana, actually and very recently there were some discussions about this very subject; check this post by Wes (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=93384&postcount=3).

Nope...but you should contact whoever this person works for and file your complaint.

What do you mean by bad? Please explain...

Randy, were you out there auditing? :p Oh wait, she said the auditor was a lady...

Randy, were you out there auditing? :p Oh wait, she said the auditor was a lady...Sometimes, when his throat is really dry, Randy's voice goes up a register or two, but for the most part, he looks exactly like you'd expect an ex-cop gyrene to look - rough, tough, and hard to bluff.:lmao:

For the full impact of the thread Sidney wrote of, start at the beginning http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=93379&postcount=1

We ALWAYS suggest raising the topic with the registrar first. Think of it like a restaurant - if you see a busboy wring out the floor mop with his bare hands and then go straight to setting silverware at place settings, you talk to the manager first, not go running to the health department to file a complaint. Only if the manager blows you off do you escalate the issue to the health department.

I'm sorry to hear you had an issue, Diana, but the best time to strike is as soon as you have an inkling that things aren't going right. First, clarify the issue is real (no misunderstanding), then ask to see the "shalls," and, finally, stop the audit in midstream, call the registrar and explain your position. Sometimes, you just need to stand your ground and issues miraculously seem to disappear. Other times, it does turn into a magilla. Randy will tell you - cops are taught not to pull a gun unless they intend to or are ready to fire. Then, not to fire unless they intend to kill. Shooting guns out of hands only happens in bad cowboy movies. If you start to complain, you have to be ready and sure of your ground to withstand backlash.

Thanks for all that you guys have stated. I guess I should clarify. One of our facilities is a very small and very contained Plastics IM facility. We have been registered to ISO14001 for three years in this facility. Each year we have had a different auditor and have used their non-con's and OFIs to improve the systems.
Part of the problem was that we had this audit scheduled and the management rep for that facility had a sudden death occur in the family. We explained yesterday morning that this might slow us down a bit, but to be patient with us and we would struggle through the first day until Management Rep could come back the second day.
During the course of the morning, the auditor we have this time was very insulting, raised her voice to our audit team leader there, did a series of heavy sighs, eye rolls, etc. Right before lunch, two of our audit team members joined us. I noticed that she started directing all of her questions to these two gentlemen and discounting or deriding anything that the two ladies in the room said. Sooooo - - I changed tactics. After lunch, I handed the records book to one of the gentlemen and told him that he was now on point. I instructed the two ladies (and myself) not to speak until/unless spoken to. Same questions, same answers, same evidence as earlier - - smiles and giggles. Hmmmm. This lady talked to about 7 people yesterday and managed to offend or scare every single one of them (with the exception of the one she was flirting with).

I have called my account manager for the registrar, and I also developed a survey last night. I thought maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt and have EVERYONE rate her since maybe I am being over-critical. I will hand this survey out today. I have also told my registrar that if the day starts in the same vain today, that I will immediately stop the audit and escort this woman from the premises.

Here is the survey. Comments??

Thanks for all that you guys have stated. I guess I should clarify. One of our facilities is a very small and very contained Plastics IM facility. We have been registered to ISO14001 for three years in this facility. Each year we have had a different auditor and have used their non-con's and OFIs to improve the systems.
Part of the problem was that we had this audit scheduled and the management rep for that facility had a sudden death occur in the family. We explained yesterday morning that this might slow us down a bit, but to be patient with us and we would struggle through the first day until Management Rep could come back the second day.
During the course of the morning, the auditor we have this time was very insulting, raised her voice to our audit team leader there, did a series of heavy sighs, eye rolls, etc. Right before lunch, two of our audit team members joined us. I noticed that she started directing all of her questions to these two gentlemen and discounting or deriding anything that the two ladies in the room said. Sooooo - - I changed tactics. After lunch, I handed the records book to one of the gentlemen and told him that he was now on point. I instructed the two ladies (and myself) not to speak until/unless spoken to. Same questions, same answers, same evidence as earlier - - smiles and giggles. Hmmmm. This lady talked to about 7 people yesterday and managed to offend or scare every single one of them (with the exception of the one she was flirting with).

I have called my account manager for the registrar, and I also developed a survey last night. I thought maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt and have EVERYONE rate her since maybe I am being over-critical. I will hand this survey out today. I have also told my registrar that if the day starts in the same vain today, that I will immediately stop the audit and escort this woman from the premises.

Here is the survey. Comments??As a "quick and dirty" it will serve the purpose. Be cautious what you say in passing them out to avoid indicating your own bias.

I had to smile at the use of "vain" when you meant "vein" - If the audit continues in the same vein, it will be in vain because the auditor was vain.:)

Gender bias is difficult to understand. I know folks who still assume a female in a conference room is there to fetch and carry coffee. For one female to display it to other females is totally incomprehensible to me. Sometimes, a sharply worded statement as to who is in charge and to whom questions should be addressed straightens the situation out and gets fervent apologies.

All in all, though, this is a good learning opportunity. Management reps need backups to cover contingencies. Auditors need to learn to go with the flow. Whenever some person gives off nonverbal signals like you describe (eye rolls, sighs, etc.), stop right then and say, "What was that for? What did you mean by it? Are you willing to put that in a written statement? If not, stop it or leave!" And stick by your decision.

...Whenever some person gives off nonverbal signals like you describe (eye rolls, sighs, etc.), stop right then and say, "What was that for? What did you mean by it? Are you willing to put that in a written statement? If not, stop it or leave!" And stick by your decision.
LOL - I was going to say Diana should ask her if she's got something in her eye.
:rolleyes: :tg: But, seriously, I totally agree. Call her on it right then and there.

Diana,

I agree with you, this auditor has no place in a professional setting if she cannot be professional. After all, you were not having beers at a ball game!

You may find out if she is a certified auditor (e.g. RAB, IRCA). If so, they have a code of ethics, which she may have at the very least been pushing the limits.

As it has been mentioned, bring it up to the registrar in any case.

Just my pennies.

Hershal

I sure hope this isn't someone that I trained! What you've said is about 180 degrees from what I would call correct conduct.

You're absolutely correct in your course of action.

As for the jokesters Steve and Wes....I'll catch up to you guys somewhere between here and there ;)

depending on my mood I might say something along the lines of "Are we a burden to you or are you just having a bad day?" and if either are agreed to as being her "problem" I would say "Would you call and have someone else come out to audit or do you think this can be done in a more professional manner?" But that is just me.

Mark

During the course of the morning, the auditor we have this time was very insulting, raised her voice to our audit team leader there, did a series of heavy sighs, eye rolls, etc.Awful behaviour. There is no other way of describing it. It would be considered terrible manners in any situation, and I see no excuse for an auditor behaving like that.Right before lunch, two of our audit team members joined us. I noticed that she started directing all of her questions to these two gentlemen and discounting or deriding anything that the two ladies in the room said.Exceedingly poor manners...
Sooooo - - I changed tactics. After lunch, I handed the records book to one of the gentlemen and told him that he was now on point. I instructed the two ladies (and myself) not to speak until/unless spoken to. Same questions, same answers, same evidence as earlier - - smiles and giggles. Hmmmm. This lady talked to about 7 people yesterday and managed to offend or scare every single one of them (with the exception of the one she was flirting with). I only hope she dindn't manage to harm your coworkers confidence in the EMS in the process. Some of them will probably be wary when the next auditor turns up, and that is a great shame and totally unnecessary.I have called my account manager for the registrar, and I also developed a survey last night. I thought maybe I should give her the benefit of the doubt and have EVERYONE rate her since maybe I am being over-critical. I will hand this survey out today. I have also told my registrar that if the day starts in the same vain today, that I will immediately stop the audit and escort this woman from the premises.I have a feeling that today may be different, since your account mgr without a doubt will have contacted her after your call. I'm looking forward to the rest of the tale.

Good luck, Diana.

/Claes

I have a feeling that today may be different, since your account mgr without a doubt will have contacted her after your call. I'm looking forward to the rest of the tale.
Good point - I know I would have addressed it if I were the account manager that received that call!! I too am looking forward to hearing how it goes today.

Well, thanks to the supportive advice of you all, it is over with. I had a discussion with her yesterday morning prior to our opening meeting. I told her, "I understand that personalities dont always click on an audit and that people have bad days. I am willing to put yesterday behind us and start fresh today. I apologize if Mike not being here yesterday caused some of the frustration that you had. However, part of our training as auditors is to be flexible and do what we need to do to get at conformance. In my opinion, having looked at the soft stuff yesterday and developed trails relative to what operational controls and project plans you wanted to see, it will now be easier and more pointed today. I have informed the registrar that we are willing to give it another try rather than stop the audit. However, if we start to have the same body lanquage and tone of voice as we had yesterday - I will stop that audit and immediately ask you to leave the premises. You need to understand that I am the Mama Bear here and I will not allow you to harm or intimidate my cubs in this facility (this is very funny coming from someone who is four foot nothing). I am very protective. If you are not ok with all of this, you need to let me know now before we start to waste peoples time." She told me that I had totally misinterpreted her comments and body language from the day before and that she did not think we would have an issue. Sure enough, people kept pulling me aside and asking me if I had slipped tranquilizers in her coffee. She was a completely different person.

I guess that I should also note that part of her conversation the first morning was that she hated auditing in the south of the country because people were "just dimmer" there than in the northeast. So my opening discussion was with my best southern accent and at some point I mentioned that I didnt know how things in were done in the north, but that I am from Texas where Southern hospitality is alive and well and everyone deserves a second chance. I figured if she had any sense at all, she would figure out that she had done the unpardonable of insulting my southern heritage.

:mg: So, in addition to doing a complete 180 on her attitude and the way she addressed people, she also proved her competency level. Beyond the management rep, she only talked to 2 people. At no time did she walk the floor and just ask employees about the system. It was pathetic. As a result, she was unable to write any non-conformances. Nor was she able to give any value added OFIs. It was pathetic and i am glad that it is over.

I sent the surveys via inner office mail. Gave a cover letter that explained that in order to fulfill our requirements of assessing supplier performance, we needed to complete the survey. It was a blind, anonymous survey so people did not have to worry about pleasing me with their answers.

The guidance that was offered here was very helpful. I appreicate it very much. Have a wonderful day.

People from the South are dimmer??

Well pardon my BS Summa Cum Laude, MBA and Mensa card all to He_l!!!!!!

You didn't get an audit, you got a sham if what you say is correct. I'd scream like crazy to the auditing organization and their accreditation body, If this person holds a certification from RAB, IRCA or whatever I'd hammer her butt with a complaint.

I train people to audit. I take great care and pride in promoting the profession and stressing conduct and behavior (as some here in the Cove who have met me in a training environment can attest to).

Bottom line, you paid for something you didn't get and that constitutes a breach of contract as well as various codes of ethical behavior.

You should push hard to get this fixed and that auditor fixed as well.

She told me that I had totally misinterpreted her comments and body language from the day before and that she did not think we would have an issue. Sure enough, people kept pulling me aside and asking me if I had slipped tranquilizers in her coffee. She was a completely different person. Well, who wouldn't be after starting your day with that kind of conversation? :lol: Besides, I'm pretty certain your account mgr was hot on the phone minutes after your call too, so she had probably already been clobbered. I guess that I should also note that part of her conversation the first morning was that she hated auditing in the south of the country because people were "just dimmer" there than in the northeast.Biased from the start, eh? she was unable to write any non-conformances. Nor was she able to give any value added OFIs. It was pathetic and i am glad that it is over. And there we may have the root cause of her behaviour. She was skating on thin ice, and probably aware of it. In lack of competence she tried to steam roll you instead. Little did she know that she was messing with a Mama Bear... You did good Diana. Always protect the cubs :agree1:

/Claes

I went on to the RAB site to find out what protocol is for complaining. I have started this process by complaining to the registrar in writing. If they can not resolve the issue to my satisfaction, I can then take it up a notch with RAB? Would insisting on seeing documentation of re-training be sufficient? I dont think so - - they could do a quick dirty training and be done with it.
I have asked the registrar to contact other clients to assess their satisfaction with her performance, my concern is that many clients who have had her may find her performance satisfactory if it resulted in an audit with no findings or only findings related to fluff, so I am not sure that a survey of the clients she has audited would satisfy me. I know there was a time (many years ago) when we would have been ecstatic with an audit that netted 0 findings and would have given that auditor glowing reports.

I am at a loss. The only thing that I KNOW I can do is not allow her onto any of our premises. We have 10+ facilities around the world where I have complete oversight of who comes onsite for auditing purposes.

I guess the good thing is that I have learned how truly spoiled I have been. I have had some mediocre auditors, but for the most part, we have had auditors who always push us to be better and who have not minded having some very frank (and sometimes heated) discussions. It has always been in good fun. So, in all aspects of life, it is good to be reminded at times how truly blessed we really are. - - - As with most things in my life, I am trying to put a positive (if not downright humerous) spin on this experience.

Thanks to this audit, I now have a new nickname at work. Instead of "Hey QB!" (QB - Quality _ _ tch) - - It is now "Yo, ISO Pimp" for having pimped out the guys on the first day!!!! :D

For anyone who does training - - I am trying to figure our how to add this to my role playing piece for the internal auditors??

Thanks again for all of the wonderful advice and support from you all.

[QUOTE=Diana Cadwalader]I have started this process by complaining to the registrar in writing. If they can not resolve the issue to my satisfaction,
. . .What would really satisfy you? An apology? a rebate of part of your fee? a detailed copy of the registrar's root cause/preventive/corrective action report on the episode?

Why do you care about the individual auditor? Your concern should be what the registrar will do to assure you have trouble-free audits in the future for ALL your sites, regardless of who the individual auditors are.

Would insisting on seeing documentation of re-training be sufficient? I dont think so - - they could do a quick dirty training and be done with it.
. . . So what? You are concerned about RESULTS, not how they achieve them.

I have asked the registrar to contact other clients to assess their satisfaction with her performance, my concern is that many clients who have had her may find her performance satisfactory if it resulted in an audit with no findings or only findings related to fluff, so I am not sure that a survey of the clients she has audited would satisfy me.
. . . Your "altruism" is admirable, but I think you still relish a little more retaliation against the auditor. Odds are the entire episode was a matter of attitude that would never occur when she encounters all male crew of management reps.

I am at a loss. The only thing that I KNOW I can do is not allow her onto any of our premises. We have 10+ facilities around the world where I have complete oversight of who comes onsite for auditing purposes.
. . . That part is simple enough - just make it a condition of continued contract with the registrar that that particular auditor NEVER be assigned to any of your sites in any role (lead, staff, or in-house analyst of your paperwork.)

As with most things in my life, I am trying to put a positive (if not downright humerous) spin on this experience.
. . . The best way to do that is establish BEFORE you start the complaint process (on anything from this auditor situation down to bad food or service at a restaurant) exactly what it will take to satisfy you and then to determine whether it is within the power of the persons you deal with to grant or provide that satisfaction. The fact is, some folks get all the satisfaction they need just from venting or "kvetching" and others need some concrete action from or to the party about which they complain. Only the complainer can make that decision. Even then, the decision may not result in complete satisfaction - one of the cruelties of life.

Wes:
You are right on all counts. I am certainly glad that we dont get too old to stop learning. :)

Wes:
You are right on all counts. I am certainly glad that we dont get too old to stop learning. :)Golly, Randy, did you snitch out how old I really am?:)

Diana,

The "auditor" (I use the term loosely) should be happy I wasn't there....I might have come over the table at such an insult, professionalism aside.

Your move to complain to the registrar in writing is the appropriate first step. Under the terms of their accreditation, they are required to have (and provide upon request) a procedure or methodlogy for addressing complaints.

I would for such a farce as you endured also copy the accrediting bodies of that registrar. The registrars won't like that, as the accrediting bodies will specifically check that complaint, its investigation, and its resolution, but such a move is likely to cause them to fix any issues. I would certainly include the insult statements in that complaint notification. The accrediting bodies should take a very harsh view of such an audit. We certainly would.

As for the auditor, if she is certified by RAB or IRCA, then such an insult is CLEARLY outside the code of ethics of BOTH the certifying organizations, and I would copy them.

Just my opinion, but such an auditor as that must be called to the carpet. The complaint system for the registrar, accrediting body, and certification organization is the method to call suach an auditor into accountability.

Hope this helps.

Hershal