I cannot seem to get a definite answer from my registrar. I have to transition from QS to TS according to 1 OEM. 2% of the company business is supplying service parts only to this OEM and a couple of other OEM-types. The remainder of the company business is automotive/motorcycle aftermarket products and the #1 customer is ourselves - we supply to distributors as they place orders from our catalog. Service Parts applies/afternarket doesn't...I Got it - understood. But according to TS, I cannot register to TS across the board. I get the impression that only the activities relating to that OEM can be registered to TS. The remainder must be registered to ISO 9000:2000. I have 3 separate mfg bldgs, a warehouse for storage and shipping, and a "Corporate" offices building that houses ALL the main support functions of the entire company. 2 of the 3 mfg bldgs do NOT have any OEM business. All product designs are ours (R&D is in the "Corporate" offices bldg). The OEM basically selects a product from our catalog and requests minor changes to satisfy their needs. The OEM initiates an order(contract), then we have to make new dedicated tooling based off of an existing product. That's the extent of our OEM business in a nutshell.
Where exactly do I implement TS and where do I implement ISO? :confused:

Lee - seems to me you have said it yourself. The TS only applies to the automotive portion of your company. If you only sell 1 automotive part, and are TS certified, your entire corporate structure as it relates to the automotive part is subject to the TS requirements. All other products need ISO so you will need a seperate certification.

In my opinion, your management needs to make a decision on supplying the OEM. It would depend on the bottom line whether 2% is worth getting certified to TS. You do have other options.

First, talk to the OEM and see if they will give you a waiver on the few products you supply. If they will state you are exempt from the requirement then well and good.

Second, you can sell to the OEM through a "partner" who is certified. You will be the supplier to your "partner" and your "partner" will supply the OEM.

Third, you can decide that it just isn't worth the hassle and tell the OEM you won't certify to TS. If they decide to buy from someone else, so be it. Truth be known, the new supplier will probably want to buy from you and you can probably double the price.

Please understand this is only my opinion but I hope it helps a bit.

Dave

Lee,
Refer to the second edition of the "rules",#1.7, 2nd paragraph. Your registrar should have been able to direct you to this caveat.

Well, the idea that we can ask for a waiver might work. They (GM) wouldn't waive QS though! Your other ideas are not an option. We want the business.
Thanks!

I see 1.2 Applicability, 2nd paragraph. "...this can be considered for exclusion." That line pretty much says that TS is excluded from all non-OEM activities. Right?

Previous reply: GM has already stated that we have to get registered to TS and now that I think about it, a waiver is most-likely going to be denied. I don't know if GM has requested ISO for the entire company. I'll have to ask my upper management.

Thanks again.

We have a similar structure. We build to catalog and not to customer specifics. Our automotive customers can buy any product from our catalog. Therefore, all processes (the entire quality system) could be used for automotive production. Even though our current automotive customers do not buy all of our products, they could and therefore our entire company is included in the scope of our TS 16949 certificate. If a customer buys a part that has never been purchased by an automotive company, we have to do a PPAP for them. This is interesting since we are already producing the part. The PPAP is after the fact and less effective.

We not only look at which products are purchased by auto customers but we also look at which processes support auto customers or create auto parts. In our case, any of our proceses can be used to support the auto customers since we do not know which of our 5,600 parts they will order next.

The Process Approach and not the product approach.

Regards, Dirk

Contact your registrar and tell them that you want to have two scopes on your certificate.

Dirk,
Our customer could buy anything from the catalog but then we must make dedicated tooling with their name in the tooling, which makes it a new part number/product. But as you mentioned, it is the same processes only with different tooling in our case. I can suggest the process perspective or have a dual certififcate and see what my registrar approves.

Thanks everyone,
Lee

Although you can place the TS stuff in its own scope, you will be billed as though all employees do TS work. That means if you have 100 employees, and only 2 are involved in TS products, your audit days will be as if all 100 do TS work. At least that is my understanding. Perhaps Randy, or Sidney can clarify.

Dave, you are correct. (At least with my system)
But the expense of the audit VS the $ of impementing TS across the board (98% of the customer base)


Go with the $ audit

Although you can place the TS stuff in its own scope, you will be billed as though all employees do TS work. That means if you have 100 employees, and only 2 are involved in TS products, your audit days will be as if all 100 do TS work. At least that is my understanding. Perhaps Randy, or Sidney can clarify.

If your registrar is charging you for a 100 people and only 2 are working TS2 then they owe you some money.
Refer to IAOB website, FAQ, audit day calculations.
Auditors can audit non-TS2 ONLY if you have agreed to have it included in your scope, other only those processes and people performing work for a customer prescribing to TS2 is auditable.

I agree with cncmarine...perhaps going with 2 scopes for the business would be an easy way for you to handle this issue. I work in a plastics mfg facility. We mold numerous parts for the auto industry. Only the molding business processes are TS, our extrusion/expansion processes are ISO.

The registrar has come back and said that any activity/function that has OEM involvement must be registered to TS. Well, that even includes the accounting dept according to the registrar! So, we are implementing TS at the 3 OEM applicable sites/remote locations and implementing ISO 9000:2000 at the remaining 2 non-OEM sites.
Thanks for all your input!
Lee :D