Hello All:

Are the requirements of AS9003 included in AS9100? Is AS9003 a subset of requirements from AS9100 specificaly for organizations involved only in inpection and test?

Is the structure of AS9100 sort of like the old structure of ISO 9001:1994 where there were other versions (9002, 9003) for diffeent types of organizations?

I am trying to learn about AS9003.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten

We need an aerospace expert for this one. Sidney, do you know the answer to this one?

AS9003 is a standard, based on the obsoleted ISO 9003:1994. The intent of the AS9003 document, which is a model based on final inspection and test, is for small, non-design responsible, make-to-print shops. There are only 3 CRBs accredited for AS9003, but few OEMs are flowing down AS9003, so that document might end up being obsoleted.

AS9100, presently at Rev. B, is an ISO 9001:2000 based document, with many Aerospace specific additional requirements.

I would not say that AS9003 is a subset of AS9100, since they are based in different standards, but, IN PRINCIPLE, if you were to comply with AS9100, you should be also in compliance with AS9003.

......but few OEMs are flowing down AS9003, so that document might end up being obsoleted.

AS OF RIGHT NOW, Boeing's Quality Mangement System Requirements for Suppliers (BQMS)(document D6-82479), requires suppliers to be either AS9100 registered or AS9003 compliant. (I say AS9003 compliant since we have never been pressed to seek registration on it, and have been audited several times by Boeing in regards to AS9003.) My Boeing quality rep confirms that AS9003 is for smaller, build-to-print shops, which is the category my company falls in.

I was wondering if anybody ever heard anything about AS9003 being updated to mirror 9000:2000? I doubt that it will but as long as Boeing makes this one of their requirements, I don't see AS9003 going away anytime soon.

Dirk,

I agree with Sidney and RCW's assessment. Here's one definition I found:

AS9003 is based on ISO 9001:1994 and adds specific requirements for the outsourced inspection and test quality system providers. AS9003 has less stringent requirements compared to AS9100 due to the scaled back nature of operations of such organizations.

It might help to know that:
International Standards - AS91XX - Are recognized globally
Americas Standards - AS90XX - May become a 91XX if approved by the International Aerospace Quality Group.

May I ask why you are looking into AS9003? My company is an aerospace supplier and we have never been asked to show compliance with AS9003 by any of our customers. We are always asked if we are AS9100 3rd party ceritfied, which we accomplished in Feb. 2004.

RCW, I have also heard that they are looking at bringing AS9003 into the ISO9000:2000 format.

Hello KimLoree:

I started this thread becasue one of our aerospace customers is asking us to be certified to AS9003. We are complaint to AS9100 but not certified. We are certified to TS 16949.

We had never heard of AS9003.

Thank you for all of the responses, Dirk

Last week I became a member of the team rewriting AS9003.

At this point we are going over the AS9100B document to identify requirements that could be deleted, in order to keep AS9003 a "less than 9100" document.

However, it seems that a consensus has already been reached that ALL of ISO 9001:2000 will be in AS9003.

Hello Sidney:

I realize you just joined the AS9003 revision group but I am hoping you can seek out some feedback to my comments below. My rant below is NOT directed at you but I am hoping you can represent my thoughts or gather some feedback from the AS9003 revision group.

How will a revised AS9003 standard (with all of ISO 9001:2000) differ in content and purpose from AS9100? I thought AS9100 was the sector specific version of ISO 9001:2000? It continues to confuse me why the Aerospace industry beleives they need AS9100, company specific requirements like Boeing Quality Management System (BQMS) and now a revised standard (AS9003) that used to be applied to organizations that provided inspection and test but now will include all of ISO 9001:2000.

Where do we draw the line between standardization and standards? Could we just stick with AS9100, minimize the number of standards, and simplify things for the users? This would also simplify things for the conformity assessment world and the aerospace customers. A simliar simplification happened when ISO 9001 / 90002/ 9003 were combined into ISO 9001:2000. Every standard has to be managed for content, interpretations of intent, implementions, and conformity assessment.

The world of quality does not need more standards. The world of quality needs more oversight and support for the current standards and their users.

Thank you, Dirk

AS9003 Rev. A, when released, should be a subset of AS9100 Rev.B. In other words, all of AS9003A should be contained in AS9100B.

The rationale, from the Aerospace OEM’s for AS9003 is that, many suppliers in Aerospace Supply Chain should not be subjected to the full set of requirements contained in AS9100. For example, as well known, there are a number of small machine shops, who simply “build-to-print”, with no design capability and much less sophisticated QMS than, larger, tier 1 and 2 Aerosuppliers. For these small suppliers, the Aerospace OEMs felt that AS9100 would be too much of a burden. Thus, the concept of AS9003A which will (likely) include all of ISO 9001:2000, plus some specific Aerospace requirements.

Please note that, AS9003 was not meant to organizations that provided inspection and test, as you said. AS9003, in it’s original inception was meant to organizations that, due to less complexity and criticality, could “assure” the conformity to requirements, based on final inspection and test. I, for one, never agreed with that concept for Aerospace suppliers.

Also, remember that AS9003 is just one more document of a long list (see below). 9110 and 9120, aimed at, respectively, Repair & Overhaul and Aerospace Distributors are other “certifiable standards” that the Aerospace Community decided to develop.

AIR5359B (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AIR5359B)
Requirements for Certification/Registration of Aerospace Quality Management Systems
2003-07-23
Revised

AIR5493A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AIR5493A)
Requirements for Development, Implementation and Control of An Aerospace Auditor Training
2003-05-15
Revised

ARP9004 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=ARP9004)
Direct Ship - Recommended Practices for Aerospace Companies
2002-04-08
Issued

ARP9034 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=ARP9034)
A Process Standard for the Storage, Retrieval and Use of Three-Dimensional Type Design Data
2003-09-04
Issued

ARP9062 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=ARP9062)
Aerospace Operator Self-Verification Programs
2004-03-24
Issued

ARP9090 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=ARP9090)
Requirements for Industry Standard E-Tool to Collaborate Quality Assurance Activities Among Customers and Suppliers
2004-06-16
Issued

ARP9134 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=ARP9134)
Supply Chain Risk Management Guidelines
2004-03-03
Issued

AS9000A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9000A)
Aerospace Basic Quality System Standard (Cancelled Feb 2004)
2004-02-19
Cancelled

AS9000-APPNDX1A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9000-APPNDX1A)
AS9000 Audit Summary and Supplier Profile Instructions (Cancelled Dec 2003)
2003-12-19
Cancelled

AS9003 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9003)
Inspection and Test Quality System
2001-10-01
Issued

AS9006 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9006)
Deliverable Aerospace Software Supplement for As9100a
2003-03-12
Issued

AS9012A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9012A)
Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirements (Cancelled Apr 2003)
2003-04-17
Cancelled

AS9100 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9100)
Quality Systems - Aerospace - Model for Quality Assurance in Design, Development, Production, Installation and Servicing
1999-11-01
Issued

AS9100A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9100A)
Quality Systems - Aerospace - Model for Quality Assurance in Design, Development, Production, Installation and Servicing
2001-08-01
Revised

AS9100B (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9100B)
Quality Management Systems - Aerospace - Requirements
2004-01-06
Revised

AS9101 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9101)
Quality System Assessment
2000-09-01
Issued

AS9101A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9101A)
Quality System Assessment
2002-04-24
Revised

AS9101B (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9101B)
Quality Management Systems Assessment
2003-03-17
Revised

AS9102A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9102A)
Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirement
2004-01-13
Revised

AS9103 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9103)
Variation Management of Key Characteristics
2001-10-01
Issued

AS9104A (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9104A)
Requirements for Aerospace Quality Management System Certification/Registrations Programs
2005-01-21
Revised

AS9110 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9110)
Quality Maintenance Systems - Aerospace - Requirements for Maintenance Organizations
2003-01-11
Issued

AS9120 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9120)
Quality Management Systems - Aerospace Requirements for Stockist Distributors
2002-11-04
Issued

AS9121 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9121)
Aerospace Series Quality Systems Quality System Assessment Applicable to Stockist Distributors
2003-08-04
Issued

AS9131 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9131)
Quality Systems Non-Conformance Documentation
2001-12-21
Issued

AS9132 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9132)
Data Matrix (2d) Coding Quality Requirements for Parts Marking
2002-02-26
Issued

AS9133 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9133)
Qualification Procedure for Aerospace Standard Parts
2002-07-16
Issued

The team involved with the AS9003 rewrite effort has ben placed on hold. Under the auspices of the AAQG/RMC - Americas Aerospace Quality Group/ Registrar Management Committee - discussions are being held about the adequacy of an aerospace standard that is "less than" ISO 9001. Futher, due to the fact that the European Aerospace OEMs have no desire to implement/flow down AS9003, certificates to this Standard are not available in the OASIS database.

Some OEMs are flowing down AS9003. Some require certification to AS9003. But the discussions are on-going and it is unclear, at this time, what is the future for AS9003.

At this moment, there are 5 CRBs accredited under the ANAB Scheme to issue certificates to this Standard.

At Savannah, GA, this week, attending one more round of AAQG meetings. Today we had more discussions on the future of AS9003. Tomorrow, the AAQG will vote on the way forward for this standard, but I suspect that a decision will be made NOT to revise AS9003, i.e., "use-as-is"http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/biggrin-a1.gif . AS9003, which has no supporters in Europe nor Asia will not be an "ICOP" (Industry Controlled Other Party) controlled standard. Nevertheless, the ANAB AS9003 accreditation scheme will probably be maintained. As news develop, I will relay them. Stay tuned.

Here's some food for thought.......

Wouldn't it just be easier (and make more sense?) to:
1) Drop AS9003
2) Have aerospace suppliers comply with AS9100 BUT allow them to take exception to a minimal number of clauses (ex. exclude the design function from their scope)

This is probably too simplistic of an idea and could be a logistics nightmare (tracking what clauses you claim exception for).

Can you tell I just went through another Boeing audit this week? :frust:

Good idea - making that list a sticky, Muleskinner. :agree1:

Here's some food for thought.......
Wouldn't it just be easier (and make more sense?) to:
1) Drop AS9003
2) Have aerospace suppliers comply with AS9100 BUT allow them to take exception to a minimal number of clauses (ex. exclude the design function from their scope) This is probably too simplistic of an idea and could be a logistics nightmare (tracking what clauses you claim exception for).
This option was one of several explored. But, as I predicted, AS9003 will remain as is, i.e., it will not be revised. For those organizations that want or need an accredited certification you can find the AS9003 accredited CRBs at http://db.anab.org/rab/regSearchQMS.do?action=showSearchForm&registrarType=QMS pull down AS9003 and run a search.
The present results are:
Search Results:

The following certification bodies have been accredited (unless noted as an applicant) by ANAB

BSI America Inc. trading as BSI, Inc.
Tom Shelley
12110 Sunset Hills Road
Suite 200
Reston VA 20190-3231
United States
Phone : 703-464-1931
Fax : 703-437-9001


Det Norske Veritas Certification, Inc.
Yehuda Dror
16340 Park Ten Place
Suite 100
Houston TX 77084
United States
Phone : 281-721-6818
Fax : 281-721-6903


National Quality Assurance, USA
Arlen Chapman
4 Post Office Square Road
Acton MA 01720
United States
Phone : 978-635-9256 x.231
Fax : 978-263-0785


Performance Review Institute Registrar
Pete Kucan
161 Thornhill Road
Warrendale PA 15086-7527
United States
Phone : 724-772-7170
Fax : 724-772-1699
Other qualifications:



SGS Systems and Services Certification, a division of SGS US Testing Co.Inc
Malcolm Ting
Meadows Office Complex
201 Route 17 North
Rutherford NJ 07070
United States
Phone : 201-508-3017
Fax : 201-508-3193

Last night I was a guest speaker for the Los Angeles Section of ASQ. I spoke about the Aerospace Standards being developed under the IAQG/AAQG process. The presentation that I used is attached.

Dear Sir,
I am a lead auditor for QMS,EMS,OHSAS offering consultancy services in India. One of the proposed client for me is aviation consumable supplier who want to go for AS 9100.
Clinet has requested me to implement ISO 9001 first followed by AS 9100 or integrating both the standards from the start of the implementation of ISO 9001 followed by AS 9100.

Sir, Who can offer online consultancy support for AS?
wHAT WILL BE THE COST?
Where can i get info on 83 requirements of AS 9100?
rgds
Abhay Rajpurkar

Some upcoming documents and revisions to documents are listed in the attached document, distributed this week at the AAQG meeting.