Hi folks.
Just came across the question on remote manufacturing locations under the new rules for certification 16949 valid from mid Dec 2004 onwards.

Is it still possible to list remote manufacturing locations on the main location certificates?

regards

Dongle

We have the same situation here. Our main plant is in Hanover,PA and our remote location is in Wytheville, VA. They now must be part of our certification under TS which means they need to be 3rd party audited.

Is it still possible to list remote manufacturing locations on the main location certificates?
The requirement contained in Paragraph 5.e) of the Rules for achieving IATF recognition states:

"...include any remote supporting functions, e.g., design centers, purchasing, contract review, etc., which are part of the quality management system and have been audited, including both their locations and scopes. ...."

Section 5 of the document deals with ISO/TS 16949:2002 Certificate Content Requirements.

The posting from Sidney (paragraph 5, e) applies to what must go on the certificate. Sidney's posting nicely answers your question. Here is a little more information based on my reading of the new TS2 rules.

Paragraph 5, e does not dictate what the required organizational structure must be or which facilities must be audited. You define the scope of your quality management system. You define which, if any, remote sites are included in your quality management system. This decision must be justifiable I assume; justifiable to your registrar.

For my organization, our headquarters are in California. We have facilties in Washington, Penang, and Singapore. Even though these 3 sites provide inputs into the HQ management system, and even thought HQ provides inputs into their QMS, all 3 sites have their own, independently audited and registered TS quality systems. Based on this, the 3 remote sites are not included in HQ's qms. We work together. We provide inputs and outputs to each other. But we have seperate QMS scopes and registrations.


Section 2.3 of the new TS2 Rules explains the requirements around remote sites. I think it is worth the $40 (?) USD for the new rules since they indirectly affect TS users. I can't remeber exactly how much we paid for a copy of the rules. We bought them from the AIAG.

Thank you, Dirk

This answer should best be answered by a registrar. According to my information, it depends on the organization being registered to include all applicable locations in the scope of certificate.

Some registrars can issue one certificate for all locations and do the matrix audit. It means that not all locations need to be audited, if they are having the same quality manual and have the same kind of processes. This makes registration economical. I learned that Fedex has one certificat for all worldwide location.

After some detailled thoughts on the changes to the certification rules, it looks that every single manufacturing location (site=value added process) will have to have its own certificate - irrespective of matrix certification and scope of activities in that location - this really looks like a significant change!
Of course all remote supporting functions for the site have to be described on the certificate and must include "remote supporting" management as well, if applicable.

Tx for the contributions!

Dongle

Hello Dongle:

I would appreciate it if you would give us more information about your posting. Would you please clarify what your are saying? Are you saying that the new TS2 rules requires that all manufacturing locations for an organization have to have their own cert; their own quality management system?

Or are you stating that you have decided that the best structure for your organization is for each location to have their own qms?

Amjadrana: As far as I know, and have read, all locations included in the scope of a qms must be audited. The TS2 rules state that the remote supporitng functions must be audited first and within 90 days of the manufacturing site. If a remote site is using the same quality manual and documents, I think they still need to be audited if they are included in the scope of the qms.


Thank you, Dirk

Dear Dirk,

I understand that if say a manufacturing organization has 100 different sales locations in different parts of the country and they have the same quality manual and processes, then not all locations would be audited 100%. The registrars have a formula to audit randomly selected sites. The certificate would be for all locations. I think it is the same principle of auditing. The auditors do a random audit of processes of an organization.

I think maybe a registrar may be able to answer this question better.

Hello Dongle:

I would appreciate it if you would give us more information about your posting. Would you please clarify what your are saying? Are you saying that the new TS2 rules requires that all manufacturing locations for an organization have to have their own cert; their own quality management system?

Or are you stating that you have decided that the best structure for your organization is for each location to have their own qms?

Amjadrana: As far as I know, and have read, all locations included in the scope of a qms must be audited. The TS2 rules state that the remote supporitng functions must be audited first and within 90 days of the manufacturing site. If a remote site is using the same quality manual and documents, I think they still need to be audited if they are included in the scope of the qms.


Thank you, Dirk

Hi Dirk - in the new rules you find that the multiple locations section has been deleted (under changes). :bonk:

Regards

Dongle

Hello Dongle:

I reviewed the TS2 rules. I found on page 41, the reference to "Multi Sites" under item 5j. Multi Sites was 5j and is now listed as 5i. On page 41, TS2 states that nothing was deleted. It states that "Multiple sites replaced by corporate, and Additon of One certificate for each site." Is this what you are refering to? If so, it apprears to me to have nothing to do with allowing sampling of sites.

5i in TS2 now states, "For corporate site certificate, each site shall receive a seperate certificate, with a common certificate number plus suffix." Again, I see nothing about sampling sites.

I did read the following which supports all "sites" being audited:

2.2 1) For corporate audit scheme all sites shall be audited, the sampling of sites is not allowed.

2.3 Supporting functions on site or remote, e.g. engineering, ......shall be included in the inital and ongoing surveillance audits. The certification body audit plan shall address all applicable processes at each location.

Supporting functions shall be audited as they support a site but cannot obtain independent ISO/TS certification.

I don't see any firm, clear info about sampling sites, supporting functions, remote sites, etc.

The following is a general rant independent of Dongle comments:

However, I have no idea how CB's determine what is a "site", what is a "supporting function", and what is a "remote site". To be honest, above I have quoted the TS2 rules but I am not sure what it really means.

Of course the IATF would never dream of providing training and awareness to the end users of TS. They gave some training to the CB's. I asked the IATF how the planned to make the auditees aware of these changes that affect them. They did not even understand the question. The new TS2 rules do impact the end user; the auditee. But why would we ever want the ultimate customer to understand the changes? Nah, just jam it down our throats.

After these rules went into effect, I called our auditor to understand what the impact was. Our auditor did not know there were new rules. This was AFTER they went into effect. Our auditor called the CB. Becasue our auditor is a contract auditor, the CB would not buy him a copy of the TS2 rules nor would they give him any training on the rule changes. Sounds like a great management system to me. Not!

Regards, Dirk