http://www.asq.org/cgi-bin/guestbook/guestbook.cgi
is the direct link to the ASQ Living Strategy "Forum."
Posts to this Forum go through a censor prior to being published on the ASQ website.

If you pay dues to ASQ or are considering joining ASQ, you owe it to yourself to read through the posts which have made it past the censor system.

Some very visible and active ASQ members have made posts expressing discouragement and dissatisfaction with the status quo at ASQ. This is a good thing because "successful change management first requires the Change agent to get the interested parties dissatisfied with the status quo."

Often, bureaucrats are so blind, they don't recognize whether change can be good or bad - they are MOST satisfied when things stay the same with no change.

If, after reading the comments to date, you have a comment for that page, please don't hesitate to post it.

Yes, I have posted a comment. Thank you for sending the link.

It has been awhile since I frequented the ASQ message boards. Overall I haven't felt like a member for a long time. I don't sense outreach or mentoring, people seem to be working for themselves. This includes my local chapter, full of nice people with whom I've never built a sense of comraderie at all.

Yes, I have posted a comment. Thank you for sending the link.

It has been awhile since I frequented the ASQ message boards. Overall I haven't felt like a member for a long time. I don't sense outreach or mentoring, people seem to be working for themselves. This includes my local chapter, full of nice people with whom I've never built a sense of comraderie at all.
The sorry truth is that many ASQ members "on the ground" or, as they said in 'Nam, "in country," are under a tremendous amount of stress just keeping a job. When the stress factor builds up, there just simply is no time for Mentoring. If the only common ground for comraderie is joint misery, who wants to share that?

Despite all that, though, the folks at the Section level do what they can to provide training and tips for taking certification exams.
Many of the larger Sections have fantastic monthly programs with practicing experts and authors bringing in new methods to attack old problems.
Almost every Section has some sort of program to provide free or low cost access to the meetings for members who are out of work.
ASQ, itself, provides a discount for membership fees for out-of-work members, based on years of membership.
When approached directly, on a one-on-one basis, almost any Section member will review a resume from another member and offer suggestions (if any are warranted) for improving the presentation.
Section officers will suggest members who may help a member "role play" in preparation for a job interview.
All in all, ASQ HQ offers the infrastructure of tools, courses, and publications to help members and would-be members prepare to advance in the Quality Industry. The Sections offer hands-on implementation of those tools and tips on taking the courses. There are a number of glitches and disconnects. The curse is there is no viable competitor to ASQ to spur improvement. Improvement, therefore, must be self-generated from within.

Experience both here in the Cove and in the ASQ Forums clearly demonstrates there are "some" who offer answers to questions from even the most naive "newbie." Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere, tempered with a modicum of good humor. The task, then, is to concentrate on finding the helpful ones and leaving the others to their own brand of misery.

Experience both here in the Cove and in the ASQ Forums clearly demonstrates there are "some" who offer answers to questions from even the most naive "newbie." Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere, tempered with a modicum of good humor. The task, then, is to concentrate on finding the helpful ones and leaving the others to their own brand of misery.
I agree that improvement must be generated from within. I'm almost completely self taught. I guess I'm just exasperated with trying to find an outlet for that improvement. Like, employment in my industry.

But now I'm confused. Is it bad to take a newbie's question seriously and answer him or her with the same respect as a more experienced poster would receive? Am I out of place for doing this?

My self generated improvement doesn't include enough workplace experience to answer questions on CPK, House of Quality or in a host of involved subjects. My research is in small businesses (most of Maine's economy) and how to help them fill their needs. For this, one starts with the basics and one does not make the student feel bad, or one's credibility as an advisor is shot. I thus recognize and accept I am best for answering the more elementary questions. Should I worry about being a "some" body--am I shutting myself out of a community for doing this? What a strange feeling.

There are many very advanced people here who can answer the very technical questions from experienced practitioners. You needn't tarry in places that aren't appropriate for advanced expertise. Your time is much more valuably spent in answering very technical questions.

The point is there is someone ready, willing, and able to answer ANY level of question. It is all part of one community. No matter how knowledgeable any of us is individually, it is the GROUP knowledge base (the totality of all who visit) and the willingness to share to the best of one's ability which makes for a good Forum.

When Howard, Randy, and I met last Wednesday, it was one of the things we strongly agreed - the sense of community is very strong here in the Cove.

To be sure, many of the Private Messages which pass back and forth are the clarifications of points which may be only hinted at in the public Forum because some Covers are too shy to expose their lack of knowledge to the whole world
or
(much more likely) because the information may be too sensitive to discuss in a public Forum when specific details have to be disclosed to get the best solution for a problem. Without the public Forum, though, the exchange of information might never have taken place because one party would not know the other existed.

Adding a clarification:
When I wrote
"Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere, tempered with a modicum of good humor. "
it occurs to me I thought I had implied something, but on casual reading, the implication is not obvious -
So, same sentence with the implication added.
"Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere (not available in one's own workplace), tempered with a modicum of good humor. "

Adding a clarification:
When I wrote
"Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere, tempered with a modicum of good humor. "
it occurs to me I thought I had implied something, but on casual reading, the implication is not obvious -
So, same sentence with the implication added.
"Questions from more experienced practitioners are dealt with much more comraderie and respect, creating a certain collegial and mutually respectful atmosphere (not available in one's own workplace), tempered with a modicum of good humor. "
Oh. Phew. Thank you for that clarification. With me, one really does need to spell it all out. :bonk:

I was confused because when I referred to a low camraderie level, I was referring to my local ASQ chapter, not the Cove.

I think it is a marvelous thing to have this forum as a resource and a place to visit one another. Good information can be hard to get, insight on a problem made from outside the problem's sphere. I never had that when I was the Quality Department and Safety Department in my machine shop some time back. Without an accessible, willing, and responsive community to access I felt truly alone. I'm still alone, as my chapter's members mostly work in manufacturing, I alone work in public education. No one in my school district has expressed a clue about what Quality [management] is as we know it.

Now I hasten to add that my ASQ membership is comprised of fine, professional and kind people. I simply never felt like I was truly part of the group. I'm sure they didn't mean for that to happen. They were all in management positions and I was an inspector, an inside auditor. Things might have been different if I had taken a chapter office. So I do not blame them. Your insight on their possible nervousness about their own jobs really did help. They never appeared concerned to me, I never got that impression.

Making it clear that all are welcome is critical for The Reading Room to succeed. All must truly feel invited, and taken seriously so they will submit their articles and such.

Now I hasten to add that my ASQ membership is comprised of fine, professional and kind people. I simply never felt like I was truly part of the group. I'm sure they didn't mean for that to happen. They were all in management positions and I was an inspector, an inside auditor. Things might have been different if I had taken a chapter office. So I do not blame them. Your insight on their possible nervousness about their own jobs really did help. They never appeared concerned to me, I never got that impression.

Making it clear that all are welcome is critical for The Reading Room to succeed. All must truly feel invited, and taken seriously so they will submit their articles and such.
Only "some" of the managers feel secure enough in their jobs to devote time to being an officer in a local ASQ Section. The fact they do volunteer the time (it takes a LOT of time) shows they care about providing a safe, secure environment for Quality Practioners to meet, learn, and interact.

I wish I had a perfect formula for making every Section super-effective for the members. Sadly, the FEAR that pervades most workplaces spills over into the professional and private lives of the workers and affects their interaction with peers, even outside the workplace.

The feeling of frustration can be overwhelming when the suits and other bosses in the workplace completely discount any value of the Quality folk as a whole, reserving special scorn for folks who want to pursue "certification."

My own frustration level reaches a peak when I see the out-of-work or underemployed come by with resumes which demonstrate they've never had a chance to be more than a cog in a wheel at their jobs, with no authority or empowerment.

Amongst other things, I am the chair of a rural ASQ section. We have in past year's taken hits on the ASQ surveys, and I sure would like to do a lot more things with the Section. I wish I had a bunch of folks beating down my door saying - 'we want to go and and do this . . .' But unfortunately, it is all I can do just to keep the section "legal". Section planning for 95 members is done by 3 officers (of which one wears both the secretary and vice chair hats, and also writes the newsletter) and one non-officer. We do what we can and are able to do.

That is why I find it so bizarre the behavior sometimes at ASQ HQ. There are a bunch of us beating on the door saying "Let's go out and do this . . . and we are even committed to making it happen", but nooooooooooo . . .

Things are better now than 5 years ago. And I think if we want to keep things getting better, we need to continue to push on ASQ staff and leadership. I know I will be doing what I can do for politicking at the ASQ annual (The WCQI in Seattle in May).

I submitted a rather detailed comment on the Living ASQ link Wes included yesterday, but it doesn't appear to have made it past the webmaster.

I included suggestions on how to keep ASQ relevant. As usual, it regarded the opportunity we have of reaching out to the small business nonmanufacturing sectors, which in fact dominate the economy.

Their silence helps explain the nature of frustration I have been reading in their forum's posts. It doesn't feel like the organization is paying a lot of attention.

Figure one to two business days to get past the sensor (I mean "censor") for a straightforward comment. Up to a business week or more for relatively strong comments. FEAR runs rampant at ASQ HQ and no low level staffer is going to risk his job by letting ANYTHING through that would upset his "masters."

For some of the positions, the rule seems to be "revolving door" while other positions seem "tenured for life." If it were mine to revamp, I would re-engineer several departments to fit closer to a Deming ideal company, rather than the current Deming Red Bead factory.

I see... Oh dear. What a shame I am not a town crier for Six Sigma. That would get me air time very quickly, I suppose.

I see... Oh dear. What a shame I am not a town crier for Six Sigma. That would get me air time very quickly, I suppose.
Nope! They are, after all, bureaucrats! Haste is NEVER rewarded in a bureaucracy.

Jennifer's message in now on the Living Strategy page at ASQ. (Open to the public.) http://www.asq.org/cgi-bin/guestbook/guestbook.cgi

Please note ballots are in the mail or email notice to vote on secure website to approve/disapprove recent modifications to the by-laws of ASQ.

If you are a member, please read them carefully and vote your conscience. If you have comments or questions about the changes, you may post them either in ASQ Forums or here (preferrably BOTH.)

I appreciate my message being posted. I do not know how many agree with me, but I looked at this issue in depth during my SBIR project and I stand by my assertions. We can do better, but the practitioners can't reverse this lack of awareness problem on our own.

Will the offshoring pressure equate to the import effect on manufacturing (starting in 1970's) Japanese auto phenomenon? I don't think so, because the manufacturing pressure forced existing organizations to change (though some did fold) and with offshoring, the processes simply disappear. In some cases, such as Dell's corporate help desk function, quality was examined and the organization adjusted. What is missing is wide-scale, open and searching talk about how the (even basic) management tools can be applied to improve competetiveness with our low-wage competition. I see no signs of a quality "movement" in services as there was in manufacturing.

The problems in public education have similarities and certain differences, but basic lack of awareness applies, and the pressure to improve is based on quantitative analysis for a qualitative problem.

Maybe I am just not being patient enough. What do you think?

Nope! They are, after all, bureaucrats! Haste is NEVER rewarded in a bureaucracy.

Haste is frequently rewarded. It's efficiency that's frowned upon.

Haste is frequently rewarded. It's efficiency that's frowned upon.
Too true! Too true!:frust:

There is an issue that I have been pulling the string on at ASQ over the past several years, and would appreciate any independent support on. That is the ACSI. ASQ has partnered with the American Customer Satisfaction Index and is backing it. All sorts of "breathless" press releases come out each quarter that to me appear to be reacting to random noise. From my point of view, ASQ is simply reinforcing what most quality engineers are trying to fight against - the treatment of random noise as some sort of signal worthy of action.

There is an issue that I have been pulling the string on at ASQ over the past several years, and would appreciate any independent support on. That is the ACSI. ASQ has partnered with the American Customer Satisfaction Index and is backing it. All sorts of "breathless" press releases come out each quarter that to me appear to be reacting to random noise. From my point of view, ASQ is simply reinforcing what most quality engineers are trying to fight against - the treatment of random noise as some sort of signal worthy of action.

I let my ASQ membership lapse several years ago, mainly because of their disingenuous marketing of certification. They're fond of touting the benefits by showing statistics that certified individuals generally make more money than their non-certified counterparts, with the clear suggestion (although it's not explicitly stated) that certification is a causal factor. Of course, there's no data to back up that contention, so they're using what is probably coincidence (people who make more money are more likely to seek certification) in a patently dishonest way, and a way that flies in the face of good old-fashioned cause-and-effect analysis.

That, and like Groucho Marx, I don't want to be a part of any organization that would have me as a member :D .

Well, I just entered the fray in the ASQ Living Strategy discussion page. To some extent I was echoing some of the previous sentiments about lack of communications. I also added a few comments about how ASQ describes itself on its webpage as "ASQ ... is the world’s leading authority on quality". Not "Our members include the world's leading authorities...". The emphasis of the whole "About ASQ" section seems to be on the ogranization, not the members.

My main thesis is summed up in the statement "ASQ needs to decide if it is an organization OF quality professionals or an organization delivering services TO quality professionals."

If any of you all are interested in the full version, it is at

http://www.asq.org/cgi-bin/guestbook/guestbook.cgi


Tim F

My main thesis is summed up in the statement "ASQ needs to decide if it is an organization OF quality professionals or an organization delivering services TO quality professionals."

Nice job, Tim. Kudos also to Wes and Jennifer for their contributions both here and on the ASQ board. I wish I had more time and energy to devote to ASQ, but I've always been one who was careful in choosing battles, and directing my efforts where I feel they do the most good. Sadly, I think ASQ is toppling under the weight of the hubris and ignorance of its paid "leadership." I think the battle over renaming the organization from ASQC to ASQ is convincing evidence that people are more concerned with the appearance of the container than for the things contained therein.

Thank you, JSWO5. Very kind.

I sent another, more specific message to the Living ASQ board. I will continue to provide more detailed input until someone tells me to shut up or I just decide it's of no use. Luckily I don't give up all that easily, but I will say I'm at the point of renewing membership and wondering what is the point?

Meanwhile, ASQ's Education division has reduced the ticket price of its Quality in Education seminars and its chair-elect says, "We hope that more K-12 educators will join the Division through the Forum-only membership and start to create a critical mass of quality advocates." http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/thread.jspa?threadID=969&tstart=0&forumID=14

Hoping doesn't cut it. So I am working on ASQ in two directions, to include the Education Division, which appears to be taking the Blind Man's Bluff approach to development.

I guess the point is: we get what we agree to. If we allow the paid staff to usurp the dues paying members, we get the kind of organization we deserve. Thankfully, we have low cost mechanisms to reach out and communicate with the bulk of the 80,000+ members to lobby for votes to change the system.

Adolph Hitler and his mob did not take over Germany with guns and riots. They got themselves elected and worked to change the process from within. That's not to say our goals are similar to Hitler's, but it was a very effective tactic. It could take time - it took Hiter's guys years. The saving grace in ASQ is that a small, but determined group of members from a geographically dispersed demographic (the Cove?) could easily work their way into the elected offices of ASQ and then implement the coup d' etat with no fanfare and all the current highly paid staffers could be terminated and replaced within a matter of a few months. There may even be some mid-level staffers worth elevating to higher position.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/offtopic-d2.gif
Curiously, I was one of the folks who lobbied long and hard to drop "control" and its police connotation from the name. It was bad enough back in the 80's and early 90's when bosses didn't take Quality folk seriously (they still don't, of course), but the rank and file employees hated us (rightly so in many cases) because we were the folks who "ratted them out" to the bosses and the bosses, unenlightened by Deming, punished the employee instead of fixing the process.

From time to time, we still see posts here in the Cove from folks who want plans for dealing with employees who "make nonconforming parts" versus plans for changing processes so employees won't make as many errors. We still get folks who worry more about "detection" than "prevention" of nonconforming parts.

Somehow, there are still thousands and thousands of organizations where "Red Beads" are something guys throw at Mardi Gras parades to get females to bare their bosoms.
(Don't they know it's the emerald green ones that do the trick?:bonkhttp://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/smile-a1.gif