I am the sole quality person at a manufacturing facility that produces product from wood. Our customer is the RV industry.

First of all, I've been here 3 months and I have no previous qualilty experience. My job is to set up the quality systems and procedures for the company. The six sigma black belt who held this job before me was let go for failure to perform. The accepted attitude around here is that since our raw material is an organic and inherently imperfect product, that it's okay to let marginal quality product go to the customer. Then we get rejects back from the customer and I'm being asked how it got out the door.

I've been specifically told that my job is not to be an on-the-floor inspector, but to train the people on the floor to recognize quality product. I've been discouraged from defining our quality standard based on number and size of defect per product. Our products are laminated plywood panels. We have "trimmers" on the machine that use box knives to slit the continuous web of film to fit the individual pieces of plywood as it travels by them. They have approximately 4 seconds to trim and inspect the panel to decide if it's passable or not. That's the extent of the inspection. It's subjective and varies from one person to the next. We do have a person who has the authority to stop a line if too much poor quality product is produced, however we have four lines and she ends up filling in for people when they are absent, so she's not really in a position to be sure that each of our four laminators are accepting to consistent standards. I've suggested that she become a full-time person and that's also been discouraged.

I talked to my supervisor (VP of Manufacturing) this morning about this and his reply was that I was in a "tough spot."

Anyway... I realize I'm venting here... I'm just wondering if anyone else runs into these kinds of walls and how you handle it.

The six sigma black belt who held this job before me was let go for failure to perform. The accepted attitude around here is that since our raw material is an organic and inherently imperfect product, that it's okay to let marginal quality product go to the customer. Then we get rejects back from the customer and I'm being asked how it got out the door.

I've been discouraged from defining our quality standard based on number and size of defect per product.

We do have a person who has the authority to stop a line if too much poor quality product is produced...I've suggested that she become a full-time person and that's also been discouraged.

I talked to my supervisor (VP of Manufacturing) this morning about this and his reply was that I was in a "tough spot."

I'd start looking for a new job. Nothing in your post suggests there is any hope of any person succeeding in that position. Believe me - I'm not trying to be funny or trite - and there is no doubt another personality may be able to get somewhere with your managers - but I wouldn't want to try. I am too old and have fought enough good fights - I don't want to work for anyone who does not give me all the resources (which includes management support) I need to accomplish the task they have given me.

Don't let me discourage you, though - if you have the energy to take this on, go for it.

I agree with Cari. There are times and situations when you will be continually beating your head against the wall and wind up with nothing to show for it other than a battered cranium. The best time to look for a job is when you already have one, so you should consider getting the heck out. They can do a fine job of self-destructing without you.

Hi, Holly.

Is there any way to quantify how much each part costs? And, do you have an idea what it costs to get parts back from the customer (shipping, are any of the customer costs charged back, etc.)?

If these exact numbers are not available, come up with a good estimate. If someone argues with that estimate, make them come up with a better one.

If you can find out how many returns there are per day, week, or month, multiply that by the per unit costs above. Now, you have the 2 x 4 board with which you can knock some sense into people.

Speak in dollars, and emphasize the fact that the "Unknown and unknowable" (Deming) costs ARE NOT included, and they can be much, much greater than what you can quantify.

I agree that it sounds desperate, but with the right approach you might succeed. As Cari suggests, though, if too many people are too entrenched there, it may be time to bolt. That's for you to decide.

Hope this helps.

If the management and the production suporvisor do not support the quality thought, the job is hopeless. I would advice to get them on one line first by giving $-data on how quality can improve the company's profit.

Is there any way to quantify how much each part costs? And, do you have an idea what it costs to get parts back from the customer (shipping, are any of the customer costs charged back, etc.)?

If you can find out how many returns there are per day, week, or month, multiply that by the per unit costs above. Now, you have the 2 x 4 board with which you can knock some sense into people.

Speak in dollars, and emphasize the fact that the "Unknown and unknowable" (Deming) costs ARE NOT included, and they can be much, much greater than what you can quantify.
Or the 2 x 4 laminated plywood panel - teehee.

Money is usually the best attention grabber - though, I would have assumed the six sigma black belt who was fired might have thought of doing that already.

Holly - did you know that guy? When you say you've been "here" for 3 months - did you mean with the company - or were you promoted from within?

holly21,
Do you have access to your predecessors notes, agendas, collected data: well everything he/she did? If you do, you may be able to retrieve a reasonable benchmark from where to proceed.

Since you have been discouraged from an aspect of quality control, there's no way you can define issues related to certain parts of your perceived quality system.
I would suggest you start with identifying gaps in and throughout the manufacturing processes that make up your system. It does seem quite a daunting task yet, not impossible. You must be assured management support.
A note of importance, a Six sigma black belt is a well trained individual and, I would doubt if he/she was let go due to performance ratings. I perceive the culture of your company may be a contributing factor to your predecessors departure.
Wallace.

A note of importance, a Six sigma black belt is a well trained individual and, I would doubt if he/she was let go due to performance ratings. I perceive the culture of your company may be a contributing factor to your predecessors departure.
Wallace.

The belt is not a reliable indicator of extent of training, depth of knowledge or one's ability to get along with people. It's possible that the individual was let go for good reason(s). It's also possible the he/she was axed because of too much competence.

The belt is not a reliable indicator of extent of training, depth of knowledge or one's ability to get along with people. It's possible that the individual was let go for good reason(s). It's also possible the he/she was axed because of too much competence.

Your right, I stand corrected.
I certainly overlooked the possibility of communications issues.
I do however believe a six sigma black belt is a BB, due to passing levels of competence and communications skills. These would be a significant aspect of presenting data and findings.
Back to the issue of helping holly21!!
JMO
Wallace. ;)

First of all, I've been here 3 months and I have no previous qualilty experience. My job is to set up the quality systems and procedures for the company.

I've been specifically told that my job is not to be an on-the-floor inspector, but to train the people on the floor to recognize quality product.

I talked to my supervisor (VP of Manufacturing) this morning about this and his reply was that I was in a "tough spot."

Anyway... I realize I'm venting here... I'm just wondering if anyone else runs into these kinds of walls and how you handle it.

Holly,
Must agree that you are in a tough spot, but i don't think untenable, or undoable.
First let me say that I think you've found one of the best resources on the web for quality people. They have helped me out more times than I can count.

In your post you say that you have been tasked with creating the quality systems and procedures. Then to train people in quality. My advise is do just that. Create the system and procedures. Will you be working to a standard? Since your customer is the RV industry are you working to the TS16949?

Your system will record what is happening. Then you can place before the
bosses and associates the numbers in cold hard cash. If they choose to make changes fine. If they don't, just keep collecting the numbers and keep right on training, and needling. Someone here uses a signature "Stealth Quality". That's what you need here. :bonk:

If you like quality, stick with it. Even if it doesn't work out here, you will have gained terrific experience for you next position. :bigwave:

Hang in there.

James

I'm absolutely stunned!

Whatever my feelings about the "commercialization" of Six Sigma, I have a lot of respect for most folks who have actually achieved 6S BB status, regardless if it was ASQ , Motorola, or one of the others. The mere fact of being a BB speaks of some familiarity with the various Quality "tools."

To have a relative neophyte in Quality (sorry, Holly) replace a BB says to me only one of two things:

Management has absolutely no clue about a lot of things, especially Quality and economics.
OR
The BB was NOT a real BB (from anywhere) and therefore has "poisoned the well" with the management for ANY kind of Quality professional.
It seems to me the management and Holly and maybe even some customers need to have a "sit down" with a true Quality professional for an "advice" meeting on how to use existing resources to deliver consistent quality goods to customers.

Folks often accuse me of being Pollyanna in thinking there is a solution to every problem, but I feel it takes some "face time" to scope out the emotions and motives behind the management errors to set the organization back on an efficient path. Most likely, the Quality problem stems from an inadequate understanding of the "cost of poor quality" expanded to include

employee morale,
turnover,
apathy,
lost sales,
hard and soft costs of customer returns,
hard and soft costs of dealing with customer complaints,
price pressure on the product because poor Quality does not differentiate it as a "prime product" able to command "prime prices"
as well as dozens of other factors and facets which are readily detected by an experienced professional.

I feel like the true title for this thread should be, "Can this company be saved?" I happen to think it can be saved, but only with a competent "intervention" by a professional. There is no reason Holly would have to leave this job if management could be persuaded to investigate having such an intervention. Let's get a few more comments and suggest Holly take a transcript of the thread to the bosses with a request for them to follow our suggestions.

More often than not, "Occam's Razor" (see below) is the philosophy which should be considered.

:read: Occam's Razor
Ockham's razor (also spelled Occam's razor, pronounced AHK-uhmz RAY-zuhr) is the idea that, in trying to understand something, getting unnecessary information out of the way is the fastest way to the truth or to the best explanation. William of Ockham (1285-1349), English theologian and philosopher, spent his life developing a philosophy that reconciled religious belief with demonstratable, generally experienced truth, mainly by separating the two. Where earlier philosophers attempted to justify God's existence with rational proof, Ockham declared religious belief to be incapable of such proof and a matter of faith. He rejected the notions preserved from Classical times of the independent existence of qualities such as truth, hardness, and durability and said these ideas had value only as descriptions of particular objects and were really characteristics of human cognition.


Ockham was noted for his insistence on paying close attention to language as a tool for thinking and on observation as a tool for testing reality. His thinking and writing is considered to have laid the groundwork for modern scientific inquiry. Ockham's insistence on the use of parsimony (we might call it minimalism) in thought resulted in some later writer's invention of the term, Ockham's razor. Among his statements (translated from his Latin) are: "Plurality is not to be assumed without necessity" and "What can be done with fewer [assumptions] is done in vain with more." One consequence of this methodology is the idea that the simplest or most obvious explanation of several competing ones is the one that should be preferred until it is proven wrong.

More often than not, "Occam's Razor" is the philosophy which should be considered.
I agree. The argument could be made that the simplest solution is to update the résumé and get the h*ll out. It's impossible to say from this vantage point, but from personal experience it seems a long shot that there's anything to be gained (for Holly) from giving the elephant tango lessons.

So there you have it, Holly. Will you let us know:

What is your background - how did you land this job without any quality background? Did you do systems management in some field other than "quality"? Did you move from another department within the company? (I don't want you to feel I'm asking you to defend yourself or anything like that - it will just let the covers who want to help know whether you just need the time or need to know how to build the watch.)

What has your predecessor already tried? Do you have his notes? If there aren't any records of his attempts - then maybe he did suck. If you do have records - do they include any reference to the "cost of poor quality" items in Wes's list?

Here's where my edit starts: I just went to your user profile and took a read through some of your posts. I missed most of them because I rarely look through the SPC or professional degree/certs forums - but in reading through your thread about operator quality certificates and visual inspection...well, it just reinforces the feeling I got when I read your first post in this thread. You're in a tough spot. :rolleyes:

I recently left a similar wood industry mainly because of the same frustrations...let me guess..you're not the highest paying employer, you have a good deal of turnover, we've been doing it this way for years and the floor supervisors simply blow you off...pretty close?

There are some things that have to be done before you can really start.

1. The "boss" has to establish some definite (read SPECIFIC) goals/objectives for the company and you to work towards...none of this ambiguous crap of "make quality better"

2. Specific roles, responsibilities and authorities have got to be defined, understood and accepted as a fact of life.

3. The "boss" has to be committed to change, has to say so, and has to make everyone believe it.

Unless these 3 primary things occur you'll be wasting your time.

If they don't occur, break out the parachute and bail. No if's, and's or but's. If you don't you'll be leaving anyway.

Randy, JSW05, and others are correct in this respect - if you do nothing to involve management in the effort to improve, you will be without a job whether you go voluntarily or not.

One of my long-time friends is a criminal defense attorney. His standard line to all his clients is "Hope for the best; prepare for the worst!" This is good advice in your situation, Holly. This is not always easy advice to swallow. The simple truth is there may be limiting factors hidden from you that will override ALL improvement attempts you make. A really experienced professional "might" be able to spot them and counter them. The very best professionals might have a 90% success ratio - that doesn't keep your scenario from being in the 10% that fail.

There is some sage advice in the above posts, Holly. I'll just make a few quick comments from my experience.

What do the "leaders" of this company consider important based on their deeds, not words? That is what they really care about. If quality is not one of those things you will struggle to survive in your position no matter how good you are. If you are really good and really persuasive and can get one person above you to help you, you might have a 20% chance of implementing a good QMS and reducing customer complaints, quality problems, etc. More likely you will be a scapegoat and a person assigned to keep the upset customers at bay.

Holly --

This is an interesting thread, and certainly there is a lot of information here for you to digest. If I may offer just one other thing to think about -- does the management understand the financial impact of "making bad product"? Is this hurting the company enough? Sometimes getting our heads into the costs of poor quality can help a reluctant management group to "see the light". However, if the costs don't make an impact, and the customers don't walk away and take their revenue, you will have a tough time. Based on what you said the VP told you, this is not a endorsement that screams for you to have success!

Wishing you a positive outcome, whatever it may be!

--QG

Excellent input in this thread. Holly, you are not alone!

When measuring cost of poor quality, it is important to include the time required to deal with the poor product issues. Management understands this cost exists, but it is very vague to most people and so it is seldom tallied.

The higher the person's station, the higher the cost of course. This includes activities like phone calls and engineering reviews.

I advocate quality costs with spreadsheets because they are so malleable and living graphs can be formed, which change as entered data changes. One can use spreadsheets to quantify this cost, and add it to the costs of materials, shipping, overhead per item as applicable, and even the loss of a customer if one adds the loss of sales to the costs of trying to woo them back. (I've read--wish I could find the source--that cost is 7x that of the original price to obtain the customer.)

Management must also understand that this issue is about cause-and-effect, much more than reducing counts of defects. It is about changing the behaviors that allow the defects to proliferate (a timely shutting down of lines if that's the only practical restraint) and it is about resources to allow those behaviors to shift.

Showing in dollars the costs of runaway defects versus the costs of improvement might convince management to walk the walk. However, conversions to the Quality way aren't always possible; even with all this math you could fail to change everyone's minds if power or fear controls them. Every horse can reserve the right to die of thirst.

If that should happen, you mustn't feel badly, even though I'm sure you care; and certainly the more you care, the more it hurts to see them turn away.

If your predecessor has left notes, by all means study them and get an impression of what was tried, and the methods to get as far as was managed. Since Six Sigma is cost oriented, I hope you will find some math but I somehow suspect there may not be much to look at. I really want to be wrong about this.

I understand your management has asked for sweeping program developments, where changes may better if more direct for now: examine the processes and plug the leaks if you can (like getting that girl on a permanent, full time inspection spot and get her off the line) and then, when Quality is shown to pay a dividend, can you think about programs.

Be well!

The wonderfull world of wooood. I just came to this industry and can feel your frustration. One thing that you must remember is the wood is a living material. Once you get to that point things get a little easier. DO they have a QMS in place?? I feel that an established QMS is essential to set the foundation to 6 SIGMA, Lean,etc.

well, you received many wonderful suggestions...some good..some..never mind...

so, how are you holding out, holly?

an inquiring mind wants to know :)

Holly,
You say you have no previous quality experience. With that in mind, I think you are in a losing situation. Management is not supporting your position and you don't have enough time to learn all of the tricks of the quality trade before the world falls around you.
How did you get in this situation in the first place? How did the company go from a Black Belt to someone with no experience?

First of all, thanks for all of the responses. I never expected that this thread would go as far as it has.

Okay... how I got this job to begin with... The guy who was here before me, the six sigma, came from the airline industry, where quality means people's lives. He came to a company where there is NO quality systems in place and an old school sort of culture. Obviously, there was some clashing of ego and although the "official" opinion is that he didn't perform, I personally feel that a personality conflict was the real reason he was let go.

This company understands the importance of quality, to an extent. Our customers are becoming increasingly interested in excellent quality product as the demands of their customers (retiring baby-boomers) are buying these units and expect them to have the same quality as their homes. We have to have a quality system in place to answer to their concerns. They understand that.

There is a quality guy here, but he is a consultant and is primariliy working with the company owners on things like strategic vision, helping to manage the company growth, etc. This guy actually has published books in the quality field, and he is the person that hired me and he is the one who guides and helps me with my projects. However, his attitude about quality clashes a bit with the manufacturing world and their need to get product out the door. I don't feel as though my boss is in total agreement with this person, but everyone accepts that he has done a lot for the company in the time that he's been here. He has told me that the president understands the need for quality and will basically back me up, but that there's going to come a point where I am going to have to stand up and challenge manufacturing on quality issues. He tells me that I have the full support of the president to do this sort of thing and that is why they hired me. At the same time, guess who my direct supervisor is? Yep... the VP of Manufacturing.

I have an engineering degree and lots of manufacturing experieince training and troubleshooting. I was interested in moving into the quality field. I saw the ad in the paper and I didn't have the quality experience they were looking for, but I had all of the other skills, so I applied on a whim. About 3 weeks later after 6 hours of interviewing I was hired. The attitude of the company was that "you're new to quality, and so are we. We'll help you get the training you need, and as you grow, our quality systems will grow." The company started me off at what I think is a relatively low salary for my background and education, however, my job offer states that when I pass the CQT, I get a $5K raise. When I get my CQE, I get another $5K.

The way I see it, this company took a chance hiring me, but for me it is a huge opportunity. I've been charged with setting up all of the quality systems, but not necessarily to do any sort of on-the-floor inspecting, troubleshooting, or corrective actions - that's all at the hands of manufacturing with me acting as an administrator to the systems that we have in place I've been getting a lot of positive feed back and do have some projects where I feel as though I am making headway and feel good about.

However, I see increasing rejects, unhappy customers, and am not really in a position to do anything about it because I'm supposed to be setting up our systems. They have limited my contact with customers, and i think its because they know I that I'm inexperienced. I have learned a lot since I was hired (end of november) and took the CQT last weekend, but I'm still frustrated by the fact that our manufacturing systems have no automatic controls, no standards around temperature, pressure, etc, (they don't even record this stuff even though there are gauges on the machines that would allow them to do so), and the ultimate excuse of poor quality - we are dealing with an organic material and this is an "art" rather than a science. So when we have a problem that affects more than once customer, we cannot go back and understand the variables that were in place on that particular day (although we can see which line it came from, which PO the raw materials were from etc). I want to use science.

The next project that I've been charged with is revamping and setting up data collection. So, obviously my frustrations about lack of scientific data is becoming more and more pronounced.

So.... hopefully that long-winded post answers some of the questions that people have. Thanks again for all of the responses.

I would be leary of a company that based my raise on passing the CQT,CQA or CQWhat-ever. Many times these companies are not in the real manufacturing world and remember "you do not read it in a book, you live it." Nothing wrong with education and applied education.

Holly,

Your statement that "...the quality guy told you that the president was behind you..." bothers me. Did the president ever talk directly to you about your postion? Did he ever go before the entire company at a company meeting and formall endorse quality and you? Why are you not directly reporting to the president?
I still think that you are between a rock and a hardplace.
There are a bunch of fundamental things that are necessary here. Go to ISO 9004:2000 and follow the process for identifying interested parties, setting up a quality policy and objectives. Identify your processes. Get a good data collection system in place. Set up a cost of quality process. Then implement your improvments. Good Luck

I want to use science.

That's good. Science is your friend and your best hope. You're handicapped by lack of experience in the industry, so it will help if there's someone there with some expertise whom you can lean on for information and support. You might be surprised to learn that there are people there who may seem outwardly indifferent, but will really try to help if they think something good will come of it. I'll flatly state that you will not be able to do this on your own, and your success will depend on recruiting the right people. You do this not by forcing yourself on them, but engaging them in conversation and asking what they would do differently if they could. The quality of your data collection efforts is dependent upon reliable sources--knowing what's important and what's not. You need to convince the right people that it's not their fault that things go wrong--it's the system that's not right, and you just want to help them to fix it.

Just for clarification, passing the CQT and the CQE, with the associated raises, are meant to get me up to the base of the salary range that they would've given to another successful applicant who had that level of education. Those certifications (primarily the CQE) would establish the base salary, then the person would've been offered more based on previous experience.

I dont' know if this contributes to the discussion, but I am actually the fourth person who has been hired for this position. The first never showed up, the second left after one day, the last guy stayed for 8-9 months, and I've been here for a little over 3 months.

I think as far as getting into the field of quality, I would've been better off being hired by a company where I could work with other quality professionals and learn that way. However, I saw this as a chance to get some quality experience under my belt... otherwise it's hard to find the type of position I would be looking for with certifications alone. The alternative is that this is a growing company, and if I can pull this off, then it's been hinted by the consultant that I would move up to the next level in the organization with a quality group working for me. Of course... that's way down the road and is based on the assumption that I can pull this off. The thing is I do really like the company and the people I work with.

Well then, you go girl!! Worst case scenario - you learn a whole lot!! Best case - you WOW them. There are a couple of threads around here that will be helpful to you. Try searching using the terms "lip service" and "change agent" for starters.

I would really love to have a discussion with the "consultant" who dreamed this employment scheme up. From one point of view, it makes perfect sense to "groom from within" IF (a big IF) the top management really will go along for the ride. I have some doubts about the "grooming process" because I would have gone about it a different way if I were the consultant to the company. (more hands on training WITH Holly, rather than seemingly let her be "self taught.")

Since we only have Holly's point of view, it's very difficult to get a solid handle on the operation and its philosophy. Wouldn't you all have liked to have been part of the exit interviews for Holly's predecessors?

Dear Holly,

My impression is that the company prefers the QM, you, to start out ignorant enough to, to some degree as you "grow", mold yourself to your employer's way of thinking: It is imperative that we ship! We make no money of we don't ship!

But they need, not necessarily want, a QM to impress upon them that they don't make money if they ship bad product; they must embrace the thinking that avoids poor quality because the real money is in not making errors in the first place.

I'll grant you that wood is a living material. As raw material it is subject to inherent flaws and thus supplies its own trickiness in controlling the processes.

This used to be the case with metals, too--but less so now, as process control has improved in foundries and steel mills. As an old NDT inspector I know there are any number of potential process flaws that impact metal stock and its end product. Some of these are invisible, which means control of this stuff is not in avoiding receiving problematic raw material (unless you can identify and stop using poor suppliers), but in identifying, and isolating it from production: where possible, ensuring that batches of it are kept from the manufacturing stream. For this we have material identification, incoming inspection, nonconformance programs and stock control--not excuses like "It's a living product, so there are going to be problems."

All of this means you must control the processes as much as practical (it's going to require math to decide the point of cost-to-reward equilibrium) because your material is that much more difficult to work with. No excuses, since obviously you can't sell flawed product. So why make it if you can't sell it? All levels of the organization must grasp this concept and go along with it (even if they don't embrace it) for the program to succeed.

I heard a ring of familiarity when I heard about the aerospace guy. I was trained in Navy submarine quality. When I entered service in a small, family owned machine shop, my desire for establishing systems was eschewed as "beaurocratizing the company" but eventually the management creaked forward and did implement the very things I had been pressing for. If your group wants to survive, your management will do this too. But they don't want a high-blown, foreign feeling system, and I don't blame them. They want something home grown, which is why they chose you. And that's fine.

Until they establish a comfort level for systems and process control, these people are exhibiting, and will continue to show a serious case of cold feet and identity crisis. They live a conundrum: they don't want to employ the inspector full time, but wish to use her on the line as a fill-in when needed. No doubt they don't think they can stand the personnel expense, but my guess is the poor quality is costing far more. It is your job to point this out in a way that finally grants your resources needed to make this whole effort work.

They shall need to understand the money aspects of quality, since apparently they understand costs and finance far more than they understand quality management. This is also indicated by their tying your pay to certification (growth) levels. They understand quantitative analysis, but not qualitative analysis. You will need to help them connect these dots if they are ever to embrace true quality, not just preventing shipping defective product.

To show progress in your work you would need to establish a baseline of costs so you can prove benefits of the strategy their consultant is trying to teach them and the systems you develop to control the processes (as much as possible given it's "living material"). You would need to find out from accounting how much that product is earning in a profit ratio, costs of raw materials and other company expenses like personnel. This will be a test of their trust in you, but time is a necessary metric because time is money just as is material.

If you wish for a tool to do these calculations with, I can send it to you or attach it here. I was planning to submit it to The Reading Room but needn't wait.

I agree with the idea that this journey and your development, even if you don't "succeed" with this company, will be very enriching because every employer wants to know how your service would bring them value. Learning how to answer that can help get you hired in places that are better suited for you, even if it turns out these good people are not.

Be well!

I would really love to have a discussion with the "consultant" who dreamed this employment scheme up. From one point of view, it makes perfect sense to "groom from within" IF (a big IF) the top management really will go along for the ride. I have some doubts about the "grooming process" because I would have gone about it a different way if I were the consultant to the company. (more hands on training WITH Holly, rather than seemingly let her be "self taught.")

Since we only have Holly's point of view, it's very difficult to get a solid handle on the operation and its philosophy. Wouldn't you all have liked to have been part of the exit interviews for Holly's predecessors?
Indeed I would, except many-a-time we are so careful in our exit interviews--if we get them--that we don't say what we really think. It's a self-preservation exersize if one has decided they wouldn't understand what one is trying to communicate.

Holly - check out the "Stealth Quality vs. No Quality" thread too.

Since we only have Holly's point of view, it's very difficult to get a solid handle on the operation and its philosophy. Wouldn't you all have liked to have been part of the exit interviews for Holly's predecessors?

:topic: I'd like to see Wes start a whole different thread on exit interviews, since I've never had one and am curious about the reasons for and against conducting them. The gatekeeper thread was excellent and I think the exit interview one could be just as interesting.

:topic: I'd like to see Wes start a whole different thread on exit interviews, since I've never had one and am curious about the reasons for and against conducting them. The gatekeeper thread was excellent and I think the exit interview one could be just as interesting.
Yep! It's an interesting topic, but probably only to the folks who remain behind when someone leaves.

Here's a BIG TIP - When you are the one leaving voluntarily, don't burn ANY bridges.

If you hated everyone, including the horses they rode in on, that's a personality issue which has no place in the exit interview.
If you felt advancement opportunity was limited, say that and only that. Do not say, "You only promote aliens with two heads!"
If you thought you were the fall guy for a boss's misdeeds, merely say, "I thought it was time to move on."
If you are leaving involuntarily, it is time to be probing to understand WHY (the real reason, not the politically correct one) - I MAY deal with this limited aspect in a new thread.

If you are the employer, it is often better to follow Machiavelli's rule "No two great Princes should ever meet without an intermediary." This means use someone who was NOT the decision maker on the firing or hiring to conduct an emotionally neutral interview with the departing employee. (This works very well in large organizations with a HR department.) If you are an employer in this position, you should contact me by PM to discuss this for your particular situation. I do NOT think this aspect would make a good thread.

Holly -

Noted that you said your next project is data gathering. Also that you have gauges on the machines for temp and pressure.

Are these gauges calibrated, or have they ever been?

Just an observation from an old inspection/test technician.

James

I have an engineering degree and lots of manufacturing experieince training and troubleshooting. I was interested in moving into the quality field.

However, I see increasing rejects, unhappy customers, and am not really in a position to do anything about it because I'm supposed to be setting up our systems.

ultimate excuse of poor quality - we are dealing with an organic material and this is an "art" rather than a science.

Hi Holly21

Don't worry too much about your "Quality" knowledge. Anyone who got through engineering is already a demonstrated problem solver - you could not have graduated without these skills.

It sounds like there is an urgent problem. Perhaps you should pause the system building for a while and stomp out this fire. Some times you have to bail for a while before you can find the cause of the leak.

I have lived through something similar for years. I just re-read this and it sounds preachy, please take this with a grain of salt.

We make painted wheels and we have the same problems with visual inspection by our customers. They "don't like" what they see. I hate it.

I think people are "trying you on" with the this "organic material" red herring. Push this one back. Your goal should be to kill subjectivity.

I tell people that our standards are black and white. If anyone thinks there are any gray areas, come see me and I'll return it to black and white.

If you don't have them, you need appearance masters agreed between you and the customer. One set for each of you. Signed by both of you.

A lot of work? Yes!

All samples MUST BE MEASURABLE. So many scratches within 1 square inch. No scratch over 2" long. No dents over 0.25" wide. Blisters not to exceed such and such.

Do not accept customer specs such as "workmanlike" and "free from defects".

Don't ever let them reject a part without a reference to a sample. If it is a new defect, it becomes a new sample.

Another hint is to insist on getting the actual physical part back for examination. If the customer can't or won't return it, hey...for all purposes they accept it and it is good. End of problem. One of our customers is famous for this. The scream that the wheels are no good and they demand a credit. When we ask for them back to look at they say they are on cars -sold. Sorry, no credit!

Are your customers RV builders or the actual owner of the RV? If you are selling to a builder, there is hope you can work with them. If these complaints are from owners, it'll be harder, you will have to make your own standards.

Another red herring is the "inspector". QC died 50 years ago. Many people have their eyes and hands on your parts all through the process. They are the ones to make the call right then and there. No need to wait for QC to decide. Train them to the boundary samples. Empower them to make the call.

This is a big change. But I think you said your boss said production is responsible for product quality? If so, hold their feet to the fire. Train them, support them, coach them, but insist they be responsible for their work.

I suspect people actually know what is OK, they just don't want to buckle down and fix the process. It's just easier to blame QC, the customer, or nature.

One last idea. Is there a trade association? Perhaps they have standards?

Another last idea, call you competitors and ask what they do. All they can do is hang up on you. You have nothing to lose.

Hang in there, it is frustrating but it can be fun as well. If you can improve this, you'll have a big win and get a bunch of credibility.

Good luck

Wonderful advice--excellent! It is real-world, and addresses the product problems. :applause: :applause: :applause:

I like what Caster said, to insist on developing mutually agreed standards and stick to them. I really like this part: "I tell people that our standards are black and white. If anyone thinks there are any gray areas, come see me and I'll return it to black and white." Some people will not like this blunt declaration, but this is not a time to be a wuss. Always choose your message and delivery to match the moment, of course.

Holly, I expect you are going to be dealing with some real winners: pressure-raising problem clients. There is such a thing as "firing" a customer if that customer is more trouble than value. Chances are, that customer will stay with you once you stand your ground because they have already alienated the other suppliers.