Once here in the US it was said something like "What's good for GM is good for the country"? Was that GM?

From: The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1463922,00.html) The sense of crisis surrounding General Motors was heightened yesterday when the company reported a loss of $1.1bn (£580m) in the first three months of the year.

The Detroit firm blamed a slump in North American sales and the failure to grapple with the soaring cost of providing healthcare to its US workforce. The loss compared to a profit of $1.2bn last year.

The figure was the biggest quarterly loss recorded by the company since 1992.

GM had warned in March that it would fall into the red during the first quarter but the actual loss was at the top end of Wall Street's expectations. Shares in the company were trading 2.1% lower in mid-day trade at $25.65.

The company said it would not provide any further guidance on full-year earnings after warning last month they would be about 75% lower than previous forecasts. Hi*manshu Patel, an analyst with JP Morgan, said in a note that the lack of additional guidance "will alarm some". Group sales declined 4.3% to $45.8bn.

Chief executive Rick Wagoner seized day-to-day control of the struggling North American business two weeks ago, an acknowledgment of the scale of the problems.

The company's automotive business made a loss of $1.3bn in the quarter, against a profit of $561m last year. The drop was chiefly down to North America, which reported $1.3bn in losses against a $401m profit last year. GM Europe marginally narrowed its losses to $103m.

GM blamed the weaker performance in North America on lower sales and production volumes, intense price competition, an unfavourable sales mix - it sold more cars than trucks - and the health burden.

GM's market share in North America was 25.2% in the first quarter, down from 26.3% a year ago. The company said it expects 17m vehicles to be sold there in the second quarter, flat on first quarter levels.

Mr Wagoner said GM needed to "accelerate" efforts "on the challenging US healthcare situation". The cost of health provision is rattling corporate America, particularly GM with its huge number of current and former employees. Last week it attempted to re-open employee contracts to reduce the burden on GM, a request rejected by labour officials.

As with previous years, losses were offset by the company's finance arm, which delivered profits of $728m, albeit down from $764m a year ago.

The GM earnings figure included $265m of one-off charges related to the restructuring of its European business and job cuts in the US.

GM's Asia Pacific operations reported profits of $60m, down from $275m a year earlier. GM Latin America/Africa/Middle East turned in profits of $46m, up $1m on the first three months of 2004.

the phrase was related to US Steel!

It might be interesting to note that GM cancelled the planned and announced appearance of some of their people at the Quality Expo today because they froze the travel budget and wouldn't let them come to Chicago on the GM expense account.

Mr Wagoner said GM needed to "accelerate" efforts "on the challenging US healthcare situation". The cost of health provision is rattling corporate America, particularly GM with its huge number of current and former employees. Last week it attempted to re-open employee contracts to reduce the burden on GM, a request rejected by labour officials.

To summarize: It's the darn workers!!!! Statements like this will be the death knell of GM. When are they going to learn that a lack of sales has NOTHING to do with the cost of healthcare. It's about the product!

When Lutz took over he made some immediate changes to the product at Pontiac that piqued the interest of the media and the buying public. But as it was in the years before John Z. DeLorian, I have to believe that within that corporate structure there are, and have been, engineers that have struggled for years to deliver exciting products to the market - but bureaucracy stymies many a brilliant idea.

So once again where are the moves to flatten the corporate structure and eliminate some of the bureaucratic malaise that is so predominant in what we so proudly referred to as "corporate America" years ago?

I guess this means that all suppliers will have to cut their prices to GM again!!!

the phrase was related to US Steel!


"What's good for the country is good for General Motors, and vice versa."
Charles E. Wilson, President of GM, in 1955.

When are they going to learn that a lack of sales has NOTHING to do with the cost of healthcare. It's about the product!

I don't think anyone said that lack of sales is related to the cost of healthcare. Lack of profit is undoubtedly related to those kinds of costs, however, perhaps irrespective of sales volume. In other words, given the same volume of sales, and lower costs--including healthcare costs--profitability will be higher. This is not to say that I disagree with you in principle, however. Another cost that could be reduced is executive salaries, especially in light of dismal performance in the market.

It's really sad to think that GM might go the way of the Hudson, Studebaker, etc. But, isn't this just typical? Execs getting huge salaries, workers getting more and more benefits negotiated into their contracts without ever wondering if they'd eventually "break the bank". GM has watered down its product line so far, instead of working on getting the buyer into a FEW select really great cars, you can choose from a gazillion trucks or cars and none of them really have much in the line of true brilliance to set them apart from any other model, or brand.

I am a true GM product buyer, I'd prefer to buy GM than anything, and right now, I need a new vehicle. But, I cannot find anything that really excites me enough to go to the dealership to look.

It's really sad to think that GM might go the way of the Hudson, Studebaker, etc. But, isn't this just typical? Execs getting huge salaries, workers getting more and more benefits negotiated into their contracts without ever wondering if they'd eventually "break the bank". GM has watered down its product line so far, instead of working on getting the buyer into a FEW select really great cars, you can choose from a gazillion trucks or cars and none of them really have much in the line of true brilliance to set them apart from any other model, or brand.

I am a true GM product buyer, I'd prefer to buy GM than anything, and right now, I need a new vehicle. But, I cannot find anything that really excites me enough to go to the dealership to look.Said a mouthful, there.

Notice the surging attention and profits when Chrysler wheeled out the PT Cruiser? Its designer, Bryan Nesbitt, has since moved to GM, which is said to have been working on spiffing up its design. http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/28/A01-102661.htm and http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=104126 .

To summarize: It's the darn workers!!!! Statements like this will be the death knell of GM. When are they going to learn that a lack of sales has NOTHING to do with the cost of healthcare. It's about the product!

When Lutz took over he made some immediate changes to the product at Pontiac that piqued the interest of the media and the buying public. But as it was in the years before John Z. DeLorian, I have to believe that within that corporate structure there are, and have been, engineers that have struggled for years to deliver exciting products to the market - but bureaucracy stymies many a brilliant idea.

So once again where are the moves to flatten the corporate structure and eliminate some of the bureaucratic malaise that is so predominant in what we so proudly referred to as "corporate America" years ago?


:applause: :applause: :applause: Up until I purchased my Ford Ranger in 2000 I always purchased GM. Never again will I own a GM. Although I am not a great lover of Ford products The purchase was an emotional response from a total lack of concern from GM regarding my written complaints about their products. GM is getting its just dues. I heard a rumor just the other day that Pontiac will follow in the footsteps of the Oldsmobile! My next purchase will not be from a big three company.

\I heard a rumor just the other day that Pontiac will follow in the footsteps of the Oldsmobile! My next purchase will not be from a big three company.

Actually, I was surprised when they quit making Oldsmobiles that Pontiac wasn't the first to go.

As for the not listening to customer complaints, I'm sure that we can all find someone who could give us horror stories from any of the manufacturers, your reason for not buying GM, is my reason for not buying Ford. And I would kind of like to get a PT Cruiser, but the last time I went to a Dodge dealership, the salesman told me "bring your husband back before you test drive that pick-up, little lady, that is a man's vehicle. Let me show you this nice mini-van over here, it has this new storage system to keep your grocery bags from falling over." I asked him if I could haul 16 tons of hay with his "nice mini-van". So, there you go, none of them are in tune to their customers.

What a shame. And people wonder why so many consumers buy foreign brands, and we are loosing so much of our manufacturing. They sit there in their ivory towers, beating the @#$% out of their vendors to force them to sell at ever lower prices and never even see that their customers are turning away from their outdated, unrealistic views of what the public really wants.

Not too many folks that I know are buying "specialty" cars right now. You know the ones I mean, drive it on the weekends if the sun is shining just to see people look at you with awe and envy? Most of us want a vehicle that will pull double duty, a little work, a little play, get us to work during the week without breaking us and still look a little classy if we have to go to a funeral? Pick up the groceries, pick up the kids. Take the dog to the vet or your mother-in-law to the airport. A sedan that you can get out of without worrying about wrenching your back, that costs less than my first house did.

Will we ever see it?

Actually, I was surprised when they quit making Oldsmobiles that Pontiac wasn't the first to go.

As for the not listening to customer complaints, I'm sure that we can all find someone who could give us horror stories from any of the manufacturers, your reason for not buying GM, is my reason for not buying Ford. And I would kind of like to get a PT Cruiser, but the last time I went to a Dodge dealership, the salesman told me "bring your husband back before you test drive that pick-up, little lady, that is a man's vehicle. Let me show you this nice mini-van over here, it has this new storage system to keep your grocery bags from falling over." I asked him if I could haul 16 tons of hay with his "nice mini-van". So, there you go, none of them are in tune to their customers.

What a shame. And people wonder why so many consumers buy foreign brands, and we are loosing so much of our manufacturing. They sit there in their ivory towers, beating the @#$% out of their vendors to force them to sell at ever lower prices and never even see that their customers are turning away from their outdated, unrealistic views of what the public really wants.

Not too many folks that I know are buying "specialty" cars right now. You know the ones I mean, drive it on the weekends if the sun is shining just to see people look at you with awe and envy? Most of us want a vehicle that will pull double duty, a little work, a little play, get us to work during the week without breaking us and still look a little classy if we have to go to a funeral? Pick up the groceries, pick up the kids. Take the dog to the vet or your mother-in-law to the airport. A sedan that you can get out of without worrying about wrenching your back, that costs less than my first house did.

Will we ever see it?

:applause: :agree1: The wifes XG350L Hyundai is a marvelous machine compared to her old Malibu. When she took it in for routine service just last week she learned the dealership has recorded record sales and is now building a new dealership across town. Business is awesome! I wonder if they make a pick up truck?

Jim, I have thought seriously about the Hyundai line. or the Kias.

It seems that the big 3 have been building the gas drinkers and trying to sell an image while the foreign market has been delivering economy and a nice looking product. It is also like the K-mart attitude. "there is no way a hick from Arkansas will out do us". Just change the words.

Hey, I resemble that remark. Just two words. Sam Walton

I guess this is why I am often called unemotional. I try to research the statistical data for reliability, performance and safety as much as possible before spending my hard earned money. Vehicle aesthetics being the least important quality. I have never owned an American vehicle (unfortunately) that I did not have a bad customer experience with. GM utilizing the cost of health care as a reason for low profits appears to me as being a “herring” for not executing to market needs. Born and raised in the USA the culture really needs to change from one of blame to responsibility.
:eek:

I have never owned an American vehicle (unfortunately) that I did not have a bad customer experience with.

In this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=106603#post106603) you listed these as the American cars you've owned:

73 Ford Pinto Station Wagon
80 Pontiac Lemanz
74 Oldsmobile
83 Ford Thunderbird
78 Ford Fairmont

The most recent model dates back 22 years and all are from the golden age of poor quality in Detroit. Almost everybody who owned one of those cars had some sort of trouble with them. Before making big generalizations you should make sure you're using reasonable comparisons.

From MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7630142/) ....Posted Today:

--------------------Start Quote--------------------
DETROIT - General Motors Corp. Monday said it was recalling more than 2 million vehicles to fix a variety of potential safety defects, most of them on cars and trucks sold in the United States.

advertisement
In the latest setback for the world’s largest automaker, GM said the largest of the safety actions included nearly 1.5 million full-size pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles from the 2003 to 2005 model years with second-row seat belts that may be difficult to properly position across passengers’ hips.

Five other recalls
GM also announced five other recalls on Monday. They include a recall of 332,202 of the 1500 Series Chevrolet Suburban and Yukon XL SUVs from the 2000 and 2001 model years for possible overheating of fuel pump wires that could lead to engine stalling, failure to start, a possible fuel leak and inaccurate fuel-level readings.

Also recalled were 142,585 1500 Series Silverado and Sierra pickups from the 1999-2002 model years and 2500 and 3500 Series pickups from the 2001-2004 model years with manual transmissions. The parking brakes could wear out, allowing the vehicles to move unexpectedly.

GM also recalled 69,037 of its 2005 model year Buick Lacrosse and Buick Allure sedans, which went on sale last year, for a potential problem with a brake part that could lead to brake loss. GM said it was aware of a low-speed crash, which did not result in any injuries, as a consequence of the potentially faulty brakes.

Also recalled were 39,078 2004-model year Buick Rendezvous and Pontiac Aztek SUVs, which could stall or fail to start due to a faulty ignition relay. GM said the problem resulted in one minor crash, but no injuries.

Lastly, GM recalled 22,115 Saturn L Series wagons from the 2002 to 2004 model years because they were built with center and passenger-side rear seat belt anchors that fail to comply with U.S. and Canadian safety standards.
---------------------End Quote---------------------

I recently read an article that questioned whether or not GM (at least in its present state) would be around in another five or six years.

Wayne

In this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=106603#post106603) you listed these as the American cars you've owned:

73 Ford Pinto Station Wagon
80 Pontiac Lemanz
74 Oldsmobile
83 Ford Thunderbird
78 Ford Fairmont

The most recent model dates back 22 years and all are from the golden age of poor quality in Detroit. Almost everybody who owned one of those cars had some sort of trouble with them. Before making big generalizations you should make sure you're using reasonable comparisons.
That is a pretty crumby list.

:applause: :applause: :applause: Up until I purchased my Ford Ranger in 2000 I always purchased GM. Never again will I own a GM. Although I am not a great lover of Ford products The purchase was an emotional response from a total lack of concern from GM regarding my written complaints about their products. GM is getting its just dues. I heard a rumor just the other day that Pontiac will follow in the footsteps of the Oldsmobile! My next purchase will not be from a big three company.

What do Barbie Doll's and General Motors have in common
At face value and for whatever it's worth, check out this GMI Poll (http://www.gmipoll.com/screens.phtml?id=chartrelease7-large.gif) of European and Canadian Consumers who are avoiding American Brands in Opposition of American Foreign Policy. Here's the full article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2112272/#ContinueArticle) if interested.

The wifes XG350L Hyundai is a marvelous machine compared to her old Malibu. When she took it in for routine service just last week she learned the dealership has recorded record sales and is now building a new dealership across town. Business is awesome! I wonder if they make a pick up truck?


Record sales? And exactly how long has Hyundai been around? If they sold three vehicles this year compared to one last year it would be record sales :rolleyes: New kid on the block who is building dealerships every where.

Yea, business is awesome...until the service bays start filling up :yes:

In regard to GM recalls - as a Quality professional, I find myself wondering whether the problems engendering recalls have a root cause of "design" or "supplier approval" or poor attention to mistake proofing and Poka Yoke on both OEM and Supplier sides of the equation. Somebody must be trying to get away with "shortcuts" and subsequently, everybody else pays for the short-term saving "somebody" took credit for.

Certainly, none of the flaws which engender recalls are due to willful sabotage (as in the 50s when employees used to stash trash in door panels as a way to get back at miserable SOB supervisors) or are they?

Certainly, none of the flaws which engender recalls are due to willful sabotage (as in the 50s when employees used to stash trash in door panels as a way to get back at miserable SOB supervisors) or are they?


Interesting observation. I saw a lot of sabotage at my old automotive job, but it was always sabotage of machines to bring production to a screeching halt.

Was there a recall for the trash thing? And what kind of trash are we talking about - like banana peels and unwanted salami sandwiches and fish guts?

trash - food garbage, beer cans, whiskey bottles, excrement, etc.
It got pretty weird.

Imagine a drug sniffing dog checking your car at the border!

In regard to GM recalls - as a Quality professional, I find myself wondering whether the problems engendering recalls have a root cause of "design" or "supplier approval" or poor attention to mistake proofing and Poka Yoke on both OEM and Supplier sides of the equation. Somebody must be trying to get away with "shortcuts" and subsequently, everybody else pays for the short-term saving "somebody" took credit for.

Certainly, none of the flaws which engender recalls are due to willful sabotage (as in the 50s when employees used to stash trash in door panels as a way to get back at miserable SOB supervisors) or are they?

I remember Grandpa saying quite often, "They sure don't build them like they used to." Of course he did not coin the phrase, but simply chimed in with the sentiment of multitudes.

I was once told that the big 3 woke up one day and realized they were building them too good...that they were their own worst competition...repeat business is coming in too slowly...we've got to do something about it! Hey, let's build some failure factors into our product...what dah yah think?...Hmm, just might work. Do you think the masses will catch on. Nah, they're sound asleep. :naughty:

In this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=106603#post106603) you listed these as the American cars you've owned:

73 Ford Pinto Station Wagon
80 Pontiac Lemanz
74 Oldsmobile
83 Ford Thunderbird
78 Ford Fairmont

The most recent model dates back 22 years and all are from the golden age of poor quality in Detroit. Almost everybody who owned one of those cars had some sort of trouble with them. Before making big generalizations you should make sure you're using reasonable comparisons.


All those vehicles were owned before I got into quality, in fact they were hand me downs bought from family and friends, not choices. The only vehicles I actually bought off a lot was the Toyota and Honda :lmao:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota26apr26,1,4440351.story?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=2&cset=true

Toyota May Raise Prices to Avoid Backlash

Toyota Motor Corp.'s chairman suggested Monday that the Japanese automaker might consider raising the prices of the vehicles it sells in the United States because of the troubles of its ailing U.S. peers, Kyodo News reported.

The head of the Japanese business lobby Keidanren, Hiroshi Okuda, who also is Toyota's chairman, suggested the possibility of price increases in the United States after U.S. auto manufacturers General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. reported weak earnings results last week, Kyodo reported.

Japanese daily newspaper Asahi Shimbun reported that Okuda said at a news conference that the U.S. automakers' problems could cause a backlash for Toyota and other foreign rivals.

"I'm concerned about the current situation surrounding GM. Although a trade conflict … may be avoided, there may be some impact" on Japanese automakers "because the car industry is symbolic in the U.S. economy," Okuda said.

He said Toyota "may need to adjust prices," hinting that it might increase the prices of its vehicles in the United States.

trash - food garbage, beer cans, whiskey bottles, excrement, etc.
It got pretty weird.

Imagine a drug sniffing dog checking your car at the border!


Long, long ago...

I used to work in an auto body shop in the late '70s, early '80s. While I never found soda cans ect., I sure did hear about others finding them. What really surprised me was the number of fasteners rolling around loose inside door panels, fenders, etc. Sometimes there would be a missing fastener nearby, sometimes not.

The worst thing I have ever heard of (anecdotal, I know) was a wire suspended from each end by bolts under the dash. Upon the wire someone had thoughtfully placed several washers, which caused one heck of a racket.

I am a true GM product buyer, I'd prefer to buy GM than anything, and right now, I need a new vehicle. But, I cannot find anything that really excites me enough to go to the dealership to look.[/QUOTE]

I was until recently the proud owner of a C4 Corvette Roadster. I have lost this vehical roughly 5 weeks ago as the result of some "mysterious" deal I apparently made with my 18 year old son, regarding graduating marks. I don't recall any of the details, however my wife confirms I did in fact make this "Deal" and I never argue with my wife, so it must be so. Having said that I watched both my babies (The Son & The Vette) take off for the summer at the end of the school year. So I too find myself looking for a new vehicle. I have never in my life bought anything but GM. As far as nothing exciting, the new C6 Corvette as well as the Cadilac CTS-V would have provided some of that excitment I seek. It a shame, I'm only about 100 Grand shy of the cost of either of these vehicles. And much like yourself, nothing else (GM) excites me right know either. Good Luck with your search.
PS. I think I'm going backwards....have my eye on a 1970 Chevelle.

I bought a new Imapala a few weeks ago, saved beaucoupe bucks with the employees discount for everyone. (sorry, ragnar, not very exciting, except for all the cops in my little town are impressed. it's what they drive) I do like the car, but not near as much as my pickup. But, I needed something a little more economical...but, I am getting off topic a little.

So....I saved 6 thou on this car. then, just cuz I am nosy, I started to look at similarly priced vehicles from other brands. Can someone tell me why the discount for vehicles is so much higher from chevy than the others? Are Ford and Dodge employees paying too much? Are Chevys just priced too high to start with? I just found it pretty interesting, not that it really matters to me, just curious. Anyone else noticed this?