Where you work is it easier to get permission, or forgiveness.

When my boss (President/Owner) hired me fifteen years ago; at the close of my hiring interview he told me, "It easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission." I nodded my head, but didn't have a clue of what he meant by that. I needed a job to support my young family.

When I finally did come to an understanding of what he meant some years later, I still sought permission rather than forgiveness. Well, that's the way I was raised, and years in the military only fortified that way of thinking.

Now I've been thrust into QM, and had been totally frustrated in my new responsibility without being granted authority, till I joined 'The Cove'. It's starting to make sense now as I apply this rule. Seize the day!

How about you?

Where you work is it easier to get permission, or forgiveness.

snip

How about you?

I don't typically ask for either permission or forgiveness. I identify risks. I make recommendations. I make decisions.

Where I work, it depends on the management team (& we have a lot of those - it's a huge company). Mine expects me to make decisions based on assessed risks & to keep them informed. My functional management & most of my program managers would kick me out of the office if I brought them a problem without several possible solutions. My goal is to be part of the solution, not part of the problem - that way I never have to ask forgiveness....

I don't typically ask for either permission or forgiveness. I identify risks. I make recommendations. I make decisions.

Where I work, it depends on the management team (& we have a lot of those - it's a huge company). Mine expects me to make decisions based on assessed risks & to keep them informed. My functional management & most of my program managers would kick me out of the office if I brought them a problem without several possible solutions. My goal is to be part of the solution, not part of the problem - that way I never have to ask forgiveness....

Good points all...well taken. My company made the jump about two years ago to add QM to our QC/QA processes. We have no where near the company infrastruture, manpower and resources that yours does. Thanks!

I don't typically ask for either permission or forgiveness. I identify risks. I make recommendations. I make decisions.
Even so, occasionally we will make the wrong decisions and we have to live with the consequences.

I presently work for an owner of a company that he built up with moxie and elbow grease. And he appreciates the employees who take the initiative and sometimes "take chances" for the good of the company. They will make mistakes (and "ask forgiveness") from time to time, but that is better than constantly "asking permission" to make every new move.

However, there are limits to how far you go, left or right, and sometimes becoming a maverick who never asks permission (or does his own thing despite a clearly developed system) is just as dangerous as never making a move without permission.

Even so, occasionally we will make the wrong decisions and we have to live with the consequences.

I presently work for an owner of a company that he built up with moxie and elbow grease. And he appreciates the employees who take the initiative and sometimes "take chances" for the good of the company. They will make mistakes (and "ask forgiveness") from time to time, but that is better than constantly "asking permission" to make every new move.

However, there are limits to how far you go, left or right, and sometimes becoming a maverick who never asks permission (or does his own thing despite a clearly developed system) is just as dangerous as never making a move without permission.

I work for a large publicly held company. My stock portfolio includes stock from my employer. I am a stakeholder in all decisions that I make.

My decisions are always tempered by answers to the following:

Would I be unwilling to go up in the aircraft fitted with my product that is impacted by this decision ?
Would I be bothered if this decision were plastered over the front page of the Dallas Morning News?

If the answer to either of the above is yes, I look for an alternate solution...

Even so, occasionally we will make the wrong decisions and we have to live with the consequences.

I presently work for an owner of a company that he built up with moxie and elbow grease. And he appreciates the employees who take the initiative and sometimes "take chances" for the good of the company. They will make mistakes (and "ask forgiveness") from time to time, but that is better than constantly "asking permission" to make every new move.

However, there are limits to how far you go, left or right, and sometimes becoming a maverick who never asks permission (or does his own thing despite a clearly developed system) is just as dangerous as never making a move without permission.

Rob, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for taking the time to read my original post, and present in other words (more effectively), what I was trying to say.

Your reply is most helpful.

Judging from the poll, the answer is pretty much a no brain'r for most people here. What can I say...I'm a late bloomer with one heck of a lot of new responsibility.

I do however remain optimistic. Again thanks!

I work for a large publicly held company. My stock portfolio includes stock from my employer. I am a stakeholder in all decisions that I make.

My decisions are always tempered by answers to the following:

Would I be unwilling to go up in the aircraft fitted with my product that is impacted by this decision ?
Would I be bothered if this decision were plastered over the front page of the Dallas Morning News?

If the answer to either of the above is yes, I look for an alternate solution...

I appreciate your point of view, however I work for a small privately owned company. There are no stock options, and decisions I make impact my ableness to hold on until retirement (whatever that is).

As a U.S. Certificated Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic (pulled from among rank and file to head QMS) I've flown on (out of mx test flights) every aircraft I have ever done heavy maintenance/inspection. My name and A&P number are forever inked in many aircraft/engine log books.

Am I a major stakeholder? I think so...actually I know so! Besides I enjoy a good nights sleep, while people are flying around the world at 40K at .75+ mach.

Suffice to say for me, quality=safety of flight (first and foremost). Now that I've been thrust into QM$, I MUST learn to identify more with $takeholders.

"Injury is to be measured by malice." Italian Proverb

Though I am a common man...I have malice toward none. I believe we are ALL in this together.

Rob, I have to agree with you. I'm in a very similar situation but we are a subsidiary of a very large, multinational organization. On one side our plant is like working for a mom & pop store, but in corporate meetings it is more like the web based conferences you see advertised.

The company did grow by playing by the book. There were chances taken and a good deal of flying by the seat of your pants. Those types of decisions are still being made, at different levels, on a daily basis. As a manager, and an engineer, I have been trusted to make tough and sometimes "out of the box" choices. Not all are cut & dry, you can crunch numbers and establish risk but you still have to go with what you know.

I don't typically ask for either permission or forgiveness. I identify risks. I make recommendations. I make decisions.

Where I work, it depends on the management team (& we have a lot of those - it's a huge company). Mine expects me to make decisions based on assessed risks & to keep them informed. My functional management & most of my program managers would kick me out of the office if I brought them a problem without several possible solutions. My goal is to be part of the solution, not part of the problem - that way I never have to ask forgiveness....

I am in a family owned business that was micromanaged to death. No one had the authority to do the necessary things that would enable success. The owner has been burned on many occasions in the past and was not willing to give up that control. After making a few calulated risks and geting forgiveness later worked well for me. She was able to identify that I had the company's best interests at heart. I am in the same situation, if I arrive with a lot of problems (a gripe session, as she calls it) and no solutions then I have wasted her time and mine. But in the beginning I had to take action without her knowledge. I was confident in doing so, becasue I knew it was the right thing to do. In illustrating the need after the deed was done won her over. Now I pretty much have carte blanche to do what I need to get done. Several co-workers are peeved becasue they have been here for years and she still makes them ask to go to the potty (ok, not really, but almost). Now that her and I have an understanding, we work on permission and forgiveness, because I have proven I am not out to sell her down the river for my own gain.

Just some thoughts.....

I am in a family owned business that was micromanaged to death. No one had the authority to do the necessary things that would enable success. The owner has been burned on many occasions in the past and was not willing to give up that control. After making a few calulated risks and geting forgiveness later worked well for me. She was able to identify that I had the company's best interests at heart. I am in the same situation, if I arrive with a lot of problems (a gripe session, as she calls it) and no solutions then I have wasted her time and mine. But in the beginning I had to take action without her knowledge. I was confident in doing so, becasue I knew it was the right thing to do. In illustrating the need after the deed was done won her over. Now I pretty much have carte blanche to do what I need to get done. Several co-workers are peeved becasue they have been here for years and she still makes them ask to go to the potty (ok, not really, but almost). Now that her and I have an understanding, we work on permission and forgiveness, because I have proven I am not out to sell her down the river for my own gain.

Just some thoughts.....

Thanks for posting this. I am in a similar situation, and can learn/understand from those who share real life events like this. Again, :thanks:

30 years ago I began my engineering career with a family owned company run by the sons of the founder. These guys didn't know anything about engineering but knew that they needed the capability in order to be in business.
I was in charge of design and development. In this position I could assess the need for additional improvements in my processes or the addition of more capability.
I developed a plan for the development of software for performing seismic analysis of piping in nuclear power plants. I presented the plan to the sons along with my guess at the ROI. They turned me down flat.
For those of you who know anything about the analysis work that was performed on nuclear power systems, you know that we lost millions by not participating in that business.
After that I never asked for permission to develop anything, I just did it. I went on to develop several analytical programs that did allow us to generate millions in engineering labor dollars.
How did I get to do this? They had no control over where the labor dollars went, so I buried the development costs into other projects.
When I acquired contracts based on my software, they never asked me where I got the software. They were just happy to see the dollars.
Keep in mind, I never attempted a project based on a whim, my odds of success were always high. But I could never convice this bunch of boobs. They thought that they were to only ones who knew anything. So going around them was the only way to success.

30 years ago I began my engineering career with a family owned company run by the sons of the founder. These guys didn't know anything about engineering but knew that they needed the capability in order to be in business.
I was in charge of design and development. In this position I could assess the need for additional improvements in my processes or the addition of more capability.
I developed a plan for the development of software for performing seismic analysis of piping in nuclear power plants. I presented the plan to the sons along with my guess at the ROI. They turned me down flat.
For those of you who know anything about the analysis work that was performed on nuclear power systems, you know that we lost millions by not participating in that business.
After that I never asked for permission to develop anything, I just did it. I went on to develop several analytical programs that did allow us to generate millions in engineering labor dollars.
How did I get to do this? They had no control over where the labor dollars went, so I buried the development costs into other projects.
When I acquired contracts based on my software, they never asked me where I got the software. They were just happy to see the dollars.
Keep in mind, I never attempted a project based on a whim, my odds of success were always high. But I could never convice this bunch of boobs. They thought that they were to only ones who knew anything. So going around them was the only way to success.

I don't think I would have lasted long enough there. Sounds like you did a lot of work for little recognition.
Not that the recognition is all that it's about, but it's important to me. Maybe I'm just young and still need reinforcement from management that my ideas and efforts are worthwhile. Who knows?

I voted that it's easier to get permission. We are a similar company - small, micromanaged, founder still works there, and the common sentiment from top management is that they want the staff to work on their own - without handholding from the top dogs. Yet, whenever I send anything out the door to a customer, it has to be reviewed by the president before I can send it. Otherwise, wrists will be slapped.

How's that for backwards?

I voted that it's easier to get permission. We are a similar company - small, micromanaged, founder still works there, and the common sentiment from top management is that they want the staff to work on their own - without handholding from the top dogs. Yet, whenever I send anything out the door to a customer, it has to be reviewed by the president before I can send it. Otherwise, wrists will be slapped.

How's that for backwards?

Maybe its a female perspective that makes it different - I dont know.....
I voted permission as forgiveness is something that is, in my opinion, very hard to truely get.
If you had chosen a different word - perhaps "overlook", I might have thought differently.
Someone always ribs you for the things you did wrong (or reminds you or rubs it in or distrusts you in future).

Does this make any sense? :2cents:

I work for a large publicly held company. My stock portfolio includes stock from my employer. I am a stakeholder in all decisions that I make.

My decisions are always tempered by answers to the following:

Would I be unwilling to go up in the aircraft fitted with my product that is impacted by this decision ?
Would I be bothered if this decision were plastered over the front page of the Dallas Morning News?

If the answer to either of the above is yes, I look for an alternate solution...

Leanne - you go!

If only Enron, Martha, dubya, Nortel, and an almost endless list of CEOs thought and behaved the same as you we'd have a much better world to work in.

Top management doesn't always make ethical/informed decisions. Another thread examines this in terms of sociopathic behaviour. I find this idea very interesting.

I am voting for Permission.

My "better half", well he always assumes it easier to get forgivness. His current theory on this is that I would not have allowed him to get certain things (can you say "Hot Tub" we didn't have a deck big enough for and now there is more $$$$$ an work involved?) if he first got my "permission". However, on every occassion he did something without my "permission" he regrets it. It has turned out, he wished he would have gotten permission before. Now he is regreting his decision, and I would have been right. LOL!

I am voting for Permission.

My "better half", well he always assumes it easier to get forgivness. His current theory on this is that I would not have allowed him to get certain things (can you say "Hot Tub" we didn't have a deck big enough for and now there is more $$$$$ an work involved?) if he first got my "permission". However, on every occassion he did something without my "permission" he regrets it. It has turned out, he wished he would have gotten permission before. Now he is regreting his decision, and I would have been right. LOL!


Uhh, wait a minute. Lets hear what you have to say AFTER you get in the hot tub!!!

Uhh, wait a minute. Lets hear what you have to say AFTER you get in the hot tub!!!

NO COMMENT! I PLEAD THE 5th :lol:


However, if he first got permission, I would have noted that the deck was not big enough and that we would have to pull permits add on, etc. etc.

Now, he is upset because he is not very handy as a carpenter, and now has to figure out how to build a deck. We do live next to a carpenter, but he won't be available to help until near the end of summer. So, now my better half is upset because he might have to pay to have this done..........

Also, there was the Harley incident, the race car incident, the four wheeler incident....... the jet ski incident............. :whip: (I am not in anyway against having fun or being able to have some nice "toys", but you have to look at your finances and what is more important to you).

All in which he said "I wish I would have asked you first". He has a "slight" problem with impusle purchasing! I tend to be more of the lets think about this first type of person.

So, if you see a Hot Tub for sale..... well you can safely assume it is probably mine :biglaugh:

Harley, race car, four wheeler and jet ski "incidents"? At least there is less chance of an unplanned hospital visit with a hot tub!

:lmao:

Harley, race car, four wheeler and jet ski "incidents"? At least there is less chance of an unplanned hospital visit with a hot tub!

:lmao:

:tg: Ummmmm.......(LOL) you need to meet my husband........ he can make even the hot tub dangerous. Well let's just say that him and his friends believe that it is a "tub o' fun" that they can practice cannon balls in at 2am at night. Spashing water all over the doorwall. They also believe that is is hilarious to play "Look I am floating face down" and running and leaping over the side of the hot tub as a fun event! :bonk: Last time they got together I found an empty beer can, a black paper clip binder, and a lighter torch floating in the water. Yes... I am scared! Let's just say maybe I should take this as a sign and run for it..... how's the weather where your at? :lol:

Anyway, nothing against having fun, and really I rather them "playing" in the backyard supervised! At least they are living life up and having a great time. I used to be a life guard, so maybe I should get the red bathing suit and whistle back?

84.62% responded "It's easier to get forgiveness."
15.38% responded "It's easier to get permission."

Thanks