Hello everyone

As you might have guessed from the title I work in the Aerospace industry, as a manufacturing engineer. My question is if anyone out there knows what the standards for this field AS9... says about conducting MSA, on gages used for inspection of parts. I know that there are a lot of very competent and experienced people in this forum, so if you could take the time to help me I would really appreciate it.

I am not familier with AS91XX, but I'm sure one of our aerospace/AS91XX experts will chip in.

May be you will find something here: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/supplier/

Hello Atul,

From many of the threads involving MSA, you appear to be very knowledgeable on the subject, so if you may, I have a few questions in regards to MSA.

1) Where can I purchase a MSA procedural manual? (How to book)
2) What appears to be the most useful/popular software? (Minitab, etc.)
3) Any information on MSA studies on DCC CMM's would be very helpful.

I apologize for throwing so many questions all at once, it's just that I'm new to this element (MSA) and I'm trying to learn as much as possible in a short period of time.

:thanx:

Hello everyone

As you might have guessed from the title I work in the Aerospace industry, as a manufacturing engineer. My question is if anyone out there knows what the standards for this field AS9... says about conducting MSA, on gages used for inspection of parts. I know that there are a lot of very competent and experienced people in this forum, so if you could take the time to help me I would really appreciate it.Hey there,

I'm not familiar with the AS9100 std either, but others around here are, so answers should turn up. If not, we can always move this thread to the AS9100 - Aerospace (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=95) forum.

Skoj att det dyker upp fler svenskar här, förresten :bigwave: Vi är inte så många. Välkommen.

/Claes

Hello everyone

As you might have guessed from the title I work in the Aerospace industry, as a manufacturing engineer. My question is if anyone out there knows what the standards for this field AS9... says about conducting MSA, on gages used for inspection of parts. I know that there are a lot of very competent and experienced people in this forum, so if you could take the time to help me I would really appreciate it.

Most of the ASXXXX Standards are listed here http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=98741&postcount=9

Thank you for your kind help. I still could not find the answer to my question, so I was thinking that maybe we could follow Claes suggestion an move this thread to the other forum, concerning AS9100. How do we do this, can I do it myself?
I have been trying to get hold of the right person to answer my question at work, but I have not found him/her yet. But on the other hand, that is how it should be in the aerospace industry, we always work on a five to ten year plan on our projects....hmmm.

Hej förresten Claes... :) ...att det inte finns så många svenskar här beror väl troligen på att vi inte vanligtvis arbetar på fritiden i vårt land... :tg:

For those of you who are not familiar with the swedish language, I just said hello to Claes.

I have worked for an independent inspection facility accredited to Nadcap, AS9100, and audited by Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Gulfstream, Pratt, GE, and others. Saying that... no two of those entities has had the same interpretation of MAS requirements. Most of those audits have looked for equipment that has been calibrated throughout the full range of use by a standard with a 4:1 accuracy, that's it. No gage R&R, no MU budgets, no proficiency programs, etc.

I don't think AS9100 uses the term "MAS" anywhere but indirectly gets there by refering to appropriate inspection equipment and that the "measurement uncertainty is known". Unfortunately, I don't think there is a good answer to your question. The requirements are not clear and the subsequently interpretation is inconsistent. On the upside, if you put in any kind of system for getting a hold on your measurement capabilities, it is probably going to be sufficient.

Hopefully this isn't a completely worthless post.

Daryl Montie

As Daryl pointed out in the previous reply.."if you put in any kind of system for getting a hold on your measurement capabilities, it is probably going to be sufficient"

I would add that conducting GR&Rs/measurement systems analysis as defined in the AIAG MSA Manual would be an excellent starting point especially in the absence of specific guidance in the ASXXXX series.

We have AS9100B certification and when it comes to Inspection & Test equipment, the only thing that is really "interrogated" is our calibration system.

As you may all know, calibrated equipment is only part of the story and does not mean it is perfect for its intended application.

I don't think AS9100 uses the term "MAS" anywhere but indirectly gets there by refering to appropriate inspection equipment and that the "measurement uncertainty is known". Unfortunately, I don't think there is a good answer to your question. The requirements are not clear and the subsequently interpretation is inconsistent. On the upside, if you put in any kind of system for getting a hold on your measurement capabilities, it is probably going to be sufficient.

Thank you for your thaughts on this subject. Actually we already have a system for conducting MSA, which we are currently updating.

So if we should try to define what is meant by, appropriate inspection equipment with a known measurement uncertainty then. One interpretation of this, is that it only concerns the gage used for inspection. But then we, in my point of view, haven't taken care of the term appropriate correctly.
To me the uncertainty of a measurement system (MS), in the case of inspection, is the part of the variation caused by the MS, as % of Total tolerance. So if calibration takes care of any bias then you would still have to conduct an MSA to verify that the MS is appropriate for the intended use.

If anyone has a different opinion I would be happy to hear it.

Thank you for your kind help. I still could not find the answer to my question, so I was thinking that maybe we could follow Claes suggestion an move this thread to the other forum, concerning AS9100. How do we do this, can I do it myself?Nope... But I can. Here we go... Hej förresten Claes... :) ...att det inte finns så många svenskar här beror väl troligen på att vi inte vanligtvis arbetar på fritiden i vårt land... :tg: Det kan det ju ligga någonting i, ja. Hur som helst: Välkommen :agree:

/Claes

Why, thanks, Raddog..but be warned that appearances can be deceptive!! :rolleyes:

About your questions:

1) The AIAG MSA manual is the only book I have seen that gives you step-by-step procedures for conducting MSA studies. For Variable Gage R&R, there is Barrentine's book (Concepts for R&R Studies). And of course, if you have any questions, just ask away here.

2) Yes, Minitab is the leading statistical analysis software. At the other end of the spectrum are Excel spreadsheets - you will find many if you search the threads. In between, there are a few software products including the one by my company.

3) You need to think of it as a Measurement System and factors that can introduce variation in the measurement. IMO, a satndard 10x3x3 scheme should work with a CMM. Also See:
Gage R & R and CMM (http://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=63075)
GR&R on CMM (http://www.isixsigma.com/forum/showmessage.asp?messageID=27704)
CMM GR (http://www.cmmtalk.com/views.aspx?topic_id=2165&forum_id=79&topic_title=CMM%20GR&R&forum_title=&category=8)
Evaluate your CMMs (http://www.qualitymag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,6425,100281,00.html)