Hi friends
Yesterday, I Purchased a copy of ISO 14001:2004 for 390 Rs (around 8 USD) in Mumbai, India.
How much You do Pay for the same? :agree1:

Hi friends
Yesterday, I Purchased a copy of ISO 14001:2004 for 390 Rs (around 8 USD) in Mumbai, India.
How much You do Pay for the same? :agree1:
How about it--does anyone else have a comparison for this standard's price in India?

From the ASQ Bookstore
http://qualitypress.asq.org/perl/catalog.cgi?item=T14001

ANSI/ISO/ASQ E14001-2004: Environmental management systems - Requirements with guidance for use
ANSI/ISO/ASQ
<14001>
ANSI/ISO/ASQ E14001-2004 specifies requirements for an environmental management system to enable an organization to develop and implement a policy and objectives which take into account legal requirements and other requirements to which the organization subscribes, and information about significant environmental aspects. It applies to those environmental aspects that the organization identifies as those which it can control and those which it can influence. It does not itself state specific environmental performance criteria.
This American National Standard is applicable to any organization that wishes to
a) establish, implement, maintain and improve an environmental management system,
b) assure itself of conformity with its stated environmental policy,
c) demonstrate conformity with this Standard by
1) making a self-determination and self-declaration, or
2) seeking confirmation of its conformance by parties having an interest in the organization, such as customers, or
3) seeking confirmation of its self-declaration by a party external to the organization, or
4) seeking certification/registration of its environmental management system by an external organization.
All the requirements in this Standard are intended to be incorporated into any environmental management system. The extent of the application will depend on factors such as the environmental policy of the organization, the nature of its activities, products and services and the location where and the conditions in which it functions. This Standard also provides, in Annex A, informative guidance on its use.
38 pages. Softcover. 2004.
Item: T14001
Member Price: $56.00
List/Forum-Division Price: $70.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSI/ISO/ASQ E14001-2004: Environmental management systems - Requirements with guidance for use
ANSI/ISO/ASQ
Quantity:
Requests for multiple subscriptions should be directed to ASQ Customer Care at 800-248-1946 or 414-272-8575.

The question is simply whether psavijay bought his copy new through an official source or a used or pirated copy from an unofficial source.

My Query also probably includes whether the documents have same number of pages.

Pertinent comment:
The concept of charging fees for Standards which go far beyond the cost of merely producing the written document is a fascinating subject which we have tackled on more than one occasion here in the Cove. The Question is whether the fees support the activity of the committees which actually create and maintain the Standards or whether they are siphoned off to other use having nothing to do with creating or maintaining Standards. It would be convenient if the organizations selling such Standards provided a detailed cost accounting - none do!

How about it--does anyone else have a comparison for this standard's price in India?
The ASQ member price (http://e-standards.asq.org/perl/catalog.cgi?item=T14001E) is US$56.00 and the ANSI (http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO+14001%3A2004) price is US$81. Of course I can't say for sure, but there's a better-than-even chance that the price the OP cites is for a bootleg copy.

It would be convenient if the organizations selling such Standards provided a detailed cost accounting - none do!
You'd think that if they were truly concerned about bootlegging that such information would be readily available. One reason for seemingly high prices that's often given is that prices reflect some sort of compensation for pirated copies, but that's a circular argument, so the only real justification would be related to actual costs.

Hi friends
Yesterday, I Purchased a copy of ISO 14001:2004 for 390 Rs (around 8 USD) in Mumbai, India.
How much You do Pay for the same? :agree1:

Here is an example from ISO 9001 standard comparison:

Bureau of Indian standards
http://www.bis.org.in/bis/html/ISO9001.html
GR9 is Rs. 260.00 OR 5.97 USD (1USD = 43.55 INR)

ASQ:
http://qualitypress.asq.org/perl/catalog.cgi?item=T2101

Member Price: $52.00
List/Forum-Division Price: $65.00

www.iso.org
CHF99
78 USD

There is always going to be difference in cost between countries. Example if ISO 9001 standard is sold at USD 65 or 78 (2830 INR or 3396 INR), I don’t think many Small Scale industries in India would pay that money to buy a standard.

The idea of releasing such a standard is to make it affordable for organizations (in developing countries as well), help them develop an effective QMS and obtain greater good to the society.

Well, I like India for many reasons. Purchasing affordable standards is not in that list. That is a given.

Regards,
Govind.

The idea of releasing such a standard is to make it affordable for organizations (in developing countries as well), help them develop an effective QMS and obtain greater good to the society.
So the sellers of the standards decide who can afford it and who can't and set prices accordingly? Doesn't this mean that people in "developed" countries are forced to involuntarily subsidize the competition in markets where they're already being unfairly undercut? A small startup in the US is better able to afford a relatively high price than a large established company in a "developing" country? And btw, I would be interested in seeing your evidence that development of an ISO-based QMS contributes to "the greater good" of society.

So the sellers of the standards decide who can afford it and who can't and set prices accordingly? Doesn't this mean that people in "developed" countries are forced to involuntarily subsidize the competition in markets where they're already being unfairly undercut? A small startup in the US is better able to afford a relatively high price than a large established company in a "developing" country? And btw, I would be interested in seeing your evidence that development of an ISO-based QMS contributes to "the greater good" of society.
Valid criticism, especially when none of the organizations (India, ASQ, or ISO)gives a cost accounting of their costs.

The main question is:
"Who are we subsidizing if we pay ten times as much in USA for the same document delivered in India?"

Ancillary questions:

Are we subsidizing bloated bureaucracy within ASQ and ISO?
Do any of the excess funds go to subsidize the committees creating and maintaining the Standards?
What does India pay toward the Standards system?
What is the situation in China and other countries outside of Europe and North America?

Do I care about the merits of "greater good?"
(Not if I am going to be the one ruined financially for the "greater good!")

The ASQ member price (http://e-standards.asq.org/perl/catalog.cgi?item=T14001E) is US$56.00 and the ANSI (http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=ISO+14001%3A2004) price is US$81. Of course I can't say for sure, but there's a better-than-even chance that the price the OP cites is for a bootleg copy.Many things are much cheaper in other countries such as India, from food to lodging to - Well, you name it. That doesn't mean it's 'bootleg'.

Dear Wes,

I could not get clearly your 3rd Point "What does India pay toward the Standards system?"

Regarding difference of price of Standards in India and some part of World, Marc has appropriately replied, "Many things are much cheaper in other countries such as India, from food to lodging to"

I don't think so that a person like me who has B.Tech as well as M.Tech (Masters in Engineering) from famous IIT (Prime Engineering Institute in India) and having 14 years of Experience is getting little more than 10000 and I am not an exception.
So Wes, do you find such type of example in countries where standard's price is higher? I don't think so.
Actually we people try take advantage in all the fronts from all the corners. May be Salery and wages or may be on Standard purchasing.

This issue is not just for India.
I remember that when I wanted to buy the ISO9000:2000 series I found that the price from the Australian Standards Instute was substantially cheaper

and see this thread http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=110401 where ISO is cheaper than ASQ.

I am talking about pdf copies.

I bought ISO/TS 16949 from ISO direct as it was cheaper.

Dear Wes,

I could not get clearly your 3rd Point "What does India pay toward the Standards system?"

Regarding difference of price of Standards in India and some part of World, Marc has appropriately replied, "Many things are much cheaper in other countries such as India, from food to lodging to"

I don't think so that a person like me who has B.Tech as well as M.Tech (Masters in Engineering) from famous IIT (Prime Engineering Institute in India) and having 14 years of Experience is getting little more than 10000 and I am not an exception.
So Wes, do you find such type of example in countries where standard's price is higher? I don't think so.
Actually we people try take advantage in all the fronts from all the corners. May be Salery and wages or may be on Standard purchasing.There has long been a hope for an "ideal" or "utopia" where each member of the community contributes according to his ability and takes according to his need. Practically speaking, these systems rarely continue past the lifetime of a charismatic founder who runs a small commune as if it were an extended family with one "parent" overseeing who shall contribute and who shall "take."

If we extend the idea to a Standards Organization, the lack of fairness to the primary contributors immediately becomes apparent. Further, the system practically begs for participants to cheat. If there is no equable method of obtaining contributions from all members either in cash or in services, then the members may be persuaded to "shop" for the best deal.

Just as the USA "shops" for goods and services in China, India, Pakistan, and other countries where current costs are low, thereby disrupting their domestic suppliers, so, too, might USA and European folk "shop" for Standards in India at 10 cents on the dollar instead of supporting the domestic institutions (ASQ, ANSI, etc.) by purchasing at the domestic price. This form of "disintermediation" can eventually erode the efficacy and viability of the very institutions which supply committee members and experts to write the Standards and pay their expenses to meetings.

The question simply is: What do the "bargain rate" organizations contribute in terms of cash and services to support the Standards to justify the bargain rate for individual copies? Does India, for example, merely charge the true rate while ASQ and ISO charge an exhorbitant rate and divert the profits to activities having nothing to do with Standards? Or, does India charge a bargain rate and give its buyers a free ride on the backs of the American and European buyers?

The problem is compounded because NONE of the organizations involved give a true detailed cost accounting of the services and activities. Personally, I have no bias one way or the other, I just want to know some facts before I go off on a rant against one faction or another. I have a hunch I'm being cheated by paying ASQ prices for Standards, but I want to know who is cheating me - ASQ or India?

Many things are much cheaper in other countries such as India, from food to lodging to - Well, you name it. That doesn't mean it's 'bootleg'.
That's very true. What's also true, though, is that there is a great deal of traffic in pirated copyright material in "developing" countries, so I don't think the surmisal was unreasonable, especially since the OP gave no indication as to where he got his copy. I'm not moralizing here, just stating the facts. I would guess that the ratio of legitimately purchased copies of standards to pirated ones is quite high in this country, but here, apparently, it's because of what seem to be ridiculously inflated prices whereas in India, the price for a legitimate copy seems much more reasonable. Like Wes, I wonder why this is.

In Malaysia it costs MYR50, that is about US$ 13. It is published as an MS document (Malaysian Standard). I guess this is what many countries are doing: Officially printed locally by their own standards bodies. I do not see anything wrong with that. It is a small price to pay for copyright material. We pay much more for other business expenses.
You may be interested to know that the OHSAS 18001 standard document costs more, since it is not an MS standard. We get the originals from BSI...and it costs MYR200 (US$52).
Also, Microsoft Office costs more in Malaysia than in US.......

:)

Hi Folks

The standard copy is purchased from BIS authorised selling point, still here in india Paper copies are the famous mode for standards publication, the name given by our BIS for the standard is IS/ISO 14001:2004.

I have a doubt is it legitimate If I purchase copy of standards from foreign countries, Will it be considered as non authorised or pirated copy? in today's globalised world we can purchase through internet very easily isn't it?

I understand all about "cost of living" as it applies to food, housing, labor, etc. within a local community. Normally, all those things which count in the "cost of living" are items from two major categories:

goods and services produced locally
goods and services imported from other areas
Often there is no control over the price of imported goods and services.

Arbitrage:
When a product or service can be bought at one price and sold elsewhere to a willing buyer for a higher price, the middle man has an opportunity for an arbitrage profit.

Hence when an organization can buy a product at a low price in one locality (due to either low material cost or low labor cost) and resell it at a profit over and above the cost of transportation to the purchaser in another locality, it has earned both entrepreneurial and arbitrage profit for the transaction. (Entrepreneurial for recognizing and exploiting the opportunity.)

However, normal market forces often preclude fantastic arbitrage profits unless the middleman has secured some sort of monopoly. Hence, for years and years, DeBeers held a monopoly on diamonds, maintaining a level price throughout the world which had no real relationship to the actual cost of production and thus enjoying a high profit margin on the diamonds.

Once the monopoly is broken, however, market forces also bring the price up to a level throughout the world, but with less profit margin. Consider the precious metal "gold" and its history for a mini-education on the system.

The very nature of a Standard makes it a commodity like gold, because it is the same everywhere. Users of Standards should consider themselves free to purchase such a commodity from the least expensive source. It is up to the middlemen (national Quality organizations) to justify continued high prices in the face of a competitor who undercuts the prices or find a way to exclude the price cutter from the Cartel and deny it access to the product to eliminate the price cutting.

With the existence of the internet, the one tool arbitragers need to exist is gone - secret knowledge of the price disparity between locales. Is there anyone not aware of wage inflation in previously low wage areas once many organizations arrive to take advantage of low wages? The usual response of the organizations once wage inflation creeps in is to abandon the area for the next low wage locale. We have a perfect example of this with the present situation. Does anyone doubt the combination of low price for the Standard and even the highest international overnight mail rate would still be less than purchasing a similar copy from ASQ (in my case, less than seventy miles from my front door)?

I still want to know if ASQ is cheating me and why. I suspect the answer is "YES! Because they can!"

I am here in china and I've bought a TS16949 standard with 18 RMB(1USD=8.3RMB) and i am sure it is not a pirated copy.

Somebody want the copies of standards at the cheapest prices, try the following BIS (Bureau of Indian standards) links
For your understanding 1USD = 43 INR (Approx)

http://www.bis.org.in/dir/sales.htm

http://www.bis.org.in/sf/14000.htm

A.Vijayakumar

has anyone contacted ASQ and ask why the price discrpencies?

Am pretty sure you will get :frust: but thought i would ask since many of you have an inside connection with ASQ.

If you want to study Lead auditor to ISO 9001/ ISO 14001 etc the best place I know is pakistan where federal Govt. paying half of your fees & is at very subsidized rates. You get copy of your standards as well.

I am here in china and I've bought a TS16949 standard with 18 RMB(1USD=8.3RMB) and i am sure it is not a pirated copy.
how is that possible that you get the exact same copy in this kind of money.

I am here in china and I've bought a TS16949 standard with 18 RMB(1USD=8.3RMB) and i am sure it is not a pirated copy.
I presume the text is in English. How would a USA resident (or Canadian or any other country's residents) go about purchasing such a copy? Is it available in electronic form or only hard copy paper?

I understand both China and India are eager to get hard currencies like dollars, euros, and Swiss Francs. It seems like a tailor-made situation to practice a little selective disintermediation.
(Arbitrage might not be out of the question, either.;) )

For most of us, the nightmare of trusting "snail mail" offsets any price advantage for hard copies, but electronic copies are very attractive at that price.

Dear Wes

What do yoy mean by pirated copy in standards world?
If I purchase a standard copy from ISO for usage in India will it be considered as pirated, why I am asking this Here in India a Government body (BIS-Bureau of Indian Standard) is regulating the standard related matters.

One more doubt In India for ex name of TS2 standard is IS/ISO/TS 16949:2002 (As per BSI) but I observed that in certificates from BVQI India they stated it as ISO/TS 16949 2 nd edition, in UL they mentioned it as ISO/TS 16949:2002, meaning wise little or no difference but the code IS(Indian standard) is missing.

What is the system followed worldwide to mention the standards name in cerificates?

Dear Wes

What do yoy mean by pirated copy in standards world?
If I purchase a standard copy from ISO for usage in India will it be considered as pirated, why I am asking this Here in India a Government body (BIS-Bureau of Indian Standard) is regulating the standard related matters.

One more doubt In India for ex name of TS2 standard is IS/ISO/TS 16949:2002 (As per BSI) but I observed that in certificates from BVQI India they stated it as ISO/TS 16949 2 nd edition, in UL they mentioned it as ISO/TS 16949:2002, meaning wise little or no difference but the code IS(Indian standard) is missing.

What is the system followed worldwide to mention the standards name in cerificates?
Great question! A lot of us (even I:o ) tend to forget that our jargon is not universally understood.

Without going into a long song and dance with legal language, here is a plain language explanation:

Official copy of any document or product - a copy obtained through authorized means (at any price) from a seller who has been officially granted permission to distribute copies.

Gray market - obtaining an official document or product from a distributor who is authorized to sell in one market, but may cross a border and sell a copy in violation of his contract with the original provider or manufacturer. If I were to buy an official copy from India while residing in the USA, I might be aiding a "gray market." If I came to India and bought the copy, there would be no gray market activity. ("Gray markets" are not illegal under a government law, but may subject the distributor to "sanctions" from the original provider or manufacturer, up to losing his distributorship. Some dealers get around this by selling to a wholesaler in their territory, but not enforcing the rule for the wholesaler to resell only in the territory.)

Black market or "pirate" - When a official dealer or someone with a connection to an official dealer obtains "overstocks" (of documents or products) which have been declared "spoiled" and resells them without paying royalty to the original provider. Included in this are folks who make illegal copies or batches of products without ANY notice to the original provider and resells them. This was a notorious ploy (and may still be) in the music record industry where a company would make official copies of records on the day shift and illegal copies on the night shift and thus pay no royalties to the original holder.

In addition, a "pirate" dealing with digital data can easily buy one legal copy of a document or product and make an infinite number of identical copies for sale, having no other official connection with the original provider than being a thief of intellectual property making counterfeits. Pirate activity is illegal under government law wherever the original provider may hold a copyright or patent. Some governments are notoriously lax about enforcing laws against piracy. If I bought such a copy from a guy on the street in Bombay, I would be aiding piracy.

Everybody should understand that most laws allow the original provider to sell official copies or the right to reprint official copies at any price to anyone. Therefore, ISO may authorize India to produce copies and pay a royalty of ten cents US per copy, but require ASQ to pay a royalty of twenty-five dollars US. This could (not necessarily, just a possibility) be the primary reason for the price disparity between USA and India for identical documents.

In Trinidad & Tobago, the NSB sells the ISO 9001 (and other ISO standards) at the ISO price (hardcopy only; at the time of this writing, no electronic copies are available via the website).

Members of the NSB service receive a discount.

When an ISO standard is adopted as a TT standard, the price is at the discretion of the dept in charge of sales; the TTS/ISO 9001:2002 sells at close to the ISO price, though.

(FYI - the year of issue changes when a foreign standard is adopted by the NSB, thus "2002" for the TTS version instead of "2000").

Also see Why not make the standards free? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=4962)