Hi everyone,

Recently, during a 2nd party audit (ISO/TS 16949:2002 systems audit), the auditor stated that our internal audit program couldn't utilize the TS specification for our process audits and rather that process audits had to be conducted 'versus the process using the process itself as a basis for the audit'.

Am I totally out to lunch on this? I know that the TS specification is designed for systems, but why can't the elements be used for a process audit?

Thanks,

CC

What do you mean, systems audit? I'm new here.
What do you mean, conducted 'versus the process using the process itself as a basis for the audit'? Are you quoting this correctly?

Reference TS16949 page 27,
8.2.2.1 Quality management systems audit

8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit

8.2.2.3 Product audit

I don't understand what your 2nd party auditor was talking about, makes no sense.
We just recently passed a 3rd party conformance audit, and had evidence of all 3 types of audits.

I agree with Ralph that 3 types of audits are called for by TS. Further, it is allowed to combine the audits so that one audit in your system ccould be both a management system audit and a process audit, or a process audit and a product audit. You need to clearly identify in the audit scope the type of audit/audit combination being performed.

Process audits should concentrate on the manufacturing process - what are the inuts, what are you doing in the process, how do you control them, what is the ouput, etc. You'll should touch on more than one "element" during a process audit, such as control of non-conforming/suspect material, training, document control, measuring equipment, continual improvement, corrective & preventive actions, ...

IMO there is continuously misunderstandings here.
The audits, including system audits, should all be performed in a process manner, that means according to the definitions of the process for example in the turtle diagram.
The process audit in 8.2.2.2 is the audit of the manufacturing process which should also be in a process manner.
As I see it the main requirement of 8.2.2.2 is each manufacturing process, according to QS etc. it was possible to skip some manufacturing processes and still conform.
The clauses of the standard still exist what ever you audit and the requirements are still there
When you audit a manufacturing process you will look for on the job training no matter what, if you call it 6.2.2.3 or OJT is irrelevant

Just to clarify my question a little bit (as it seems that I perhaps didn;t explain it properly): The auditor challenged that I had conducted process audits using TS/ISO 16949, he tried to tell me that I couldn't use TS to do a process audit and that TS was ONLY for systems auditing!

Clearly this is some definition of auditing that I am hitherto unfamiliar with!

Thank you all for weighing in on this, I walked away from that audit session feeling dumbfounded. :thanx:

Just to clarify my question a little bit (as it seems that I perhaps didn;t explain it properly): The auditor challenged that I had conducted process audits using TS/ISO 16949, he tried to tell me that I couldn't use TS to do a process audit and that TS was ONLY for systems auditing!

Clearly this is some definition of auditing that I am hitherto unfamiliar with!

Thank you all for weighing in on this, I walked away from that audit session feeling dumbfounded. :thanx:

Well, I can understand why you felt bumbfounded...I think you should find out the auditors training and competency. I think he missed something.
If you are going for TS, you better be auditing your manufacturing processes.

IMO there is continuously misunderstandings here.
The audits, including system audits, should all be performed in a process manner, that means according to the definitions of the process for example in the turtle diagram.
The process audit in 8.2.2.2 is the audit of the manufacturing process which should also be in a process manner.
As I see it the main requirement of 8.2.2.2 is each manufacturing process, according to QS etc. it was possible to skip some manufacturing processes and still conform.
The clauses of the standard still exist what ever you audit and the requirements are still there
When you audit a manufacturing process you will look for on the job training no matter what, if you call it 6.2.2.3 or OJT is irrelevant

That makes sense.