Sorry to all experts of this US site but what is the Cove please? :thanx:
what is its purpose in life? who participates? perhaps you can lead me to more information alreday available.
many thanks . BM
Folks, the Cove is the Cove. No agenda. Allan's idea is being discussed (althought I think a few here have replied supporting their own agenda while 'attacking' Allan's) here and that is all. So as you continue to discuss, hopefully with less combative 'vigor', please do not bring this site into the discussion as part of the objective. If such an organization would come into being, it would have it's own web site, etc.

The "vast compendium of knowledge and freely offered attachments" will be here in the same form as long as advertising revenues continue at a 'reasonable' level to cover expenses and my time. I do get some Contributions, but those are few and far between. NOTE: To those who have contributed, my continuing Thanks!

I hope this ends some the speculation about the direction of this site and the forums and kills any implications that this site will morph into anything other than what it is. It will not morph into a rival to the ASQ or anything like that.

If anything in this thread, I'm disappointed that there is so much speculation and so little substance to some of the posts. Please detail these rather than generalize. The role is diminishing quickly. It is becoming more and more evident that the ASQ is quite irrelevant to many other than to be able to say "I'm a member" as membership numbers evidence. As with guilds, the ASQ et al will become extinct as other models take their place as society changes. Personally I won't shed any tears over the demise of any failing organization whether it be the ASQ or GM.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Again, please keep the discussion civil and 'chill'.

Sorry to all experts of this US site but what is the Cove please? :thanx:
what is its purpose in life? who participates? perhaps you can lead me to more information alreday available.
many thanks . BM
Right, Bernard. I see you've been registered a while, but not as active as others, so it's a fair Question.

At one point in the history of this Forum website, the owner, Marc Smith, had a different name for it which included the word "Cove." Old timers here have continued the tradition and newer folks have picked up the term as a "friendly" way to refer to the site as the "Cove" and themselves as "Covers."

We do have a FAQ (http://elsmar.com/Forums/faq.php?)page and a Forum (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86) devoted to ideas on how to use the Cove.
New Members - Please Read - 'How To' in the Forums (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86)
How To Do Things in the Forums - Detailed Use Instructions - This forum contains basic information on 'How To' do things, such as Add a Poll to a Thread or an Attachment to a Post in a Thread.

If you have some more specific questions, we'd be glad to answer them. Thanks for your continued registration in the "Cove":thanx:

Marc, thank you.
i read it all but i still do not understand what Cove means; may be i should look into an English dictionary. also it looks like it is only for quality people: is that right? Read through the list of different forums. It started out as a quality assurance oriented site, but is no longer that focused.
to me it looks a great idea if that is so but then i am very much surprised with the tone of many inserts... being a foreigner , non US citizen may explain my ignorance. sorry about that. no hidden agenda.
So only very basic questions such as is it open to WW or just for US? People from all over the world visit. Just look through some posts and some users profiles. and still what is the purpose? exchanging ideas? practices? new ideas? Essentially, yes. on what topics: is it limited to a subset of interests? See the listing of different forums. is it open to anyone WW?Yes - See Above these are the questions i still have in front of me.The site was first the 'Cayman Cove'. A cove is a 'sheltered' inlet along a coast. Often times boats seek a cove to shelter themselves from storms. The original 'theme' of the Cayman Cove web site (from Cayman Business Systems, the name of my 'one man band' company) was 'Shelter from the storm' referring mainly to all the various interpretations auditors had of QS-9000 and ISO 9000 clauses and how the3y appliy to the many different types of businesses. Bear in mind ISO 9001 was first 'intentioned' to be mainly a manufacturing 'standard'.

In short, the 'Cove' was meant to be a web site where one could come for help and comfort when going through the often contradictory, almost always confusing, process of implementing ISO 9001 or QS-9000.

The 'storm' people are seeking refuge from is the dizzying process of trying to comply to the standards mentioned (although the forums now go far beyond the original ISO 9001 and QS-9000 focus).

I really appreciate and now i finally understand.
My own background is both quality mger in Manufacturing (initially), then quality in HQ of an international organisation and then linked with EFQM (european foundation for quality management) which is similar in scope to Baldrige. Hence my interest in quality . i also met with Crossby, Juran and one Japonese quality gurus. about 20 years ago and had to train all the Execs in my cy on 6 sigma from Motorola. So i think i believe in iQ not just for Manufacturing but as a movement to mobilize human beings in continuous improvement. If i can help i will try but you all seem to be experts more experienced than me. Here in Europe, some currently do sense a need for quality revitalisation as it started in US and Europe nearly 20 years ago. Maybe more oriented towards services than Mfg now since as an example in my cy in 1981 we had 17 plants across europe . now only 2 are left...... and this is why i changed my job to keep busy with quality for all sales and services people. and i have nothing to do with ASQ that i do not even know except by name.
Bernard.

Bernard,

I hope you will feel free to post your experiences, thoughts and intuitions here in spite of your stating you see so many (surely more) experienced posters here.

The thing that is enduringly true about this field is that one approach proclaimed best by a few or many won't work for everyone. This forum's strength is in its openly embracing diversity among the big and small, in a great many industries and countries, and in every stage of program development.

We have strengths and weaknesses. I won't presume to post about specifically technical matters and many of the members here are much more experiences in standards than I am.

However, I have found a niche in training and human performance development and management. My growth pattern is in linking this very "soft" skill to engineering, production and management with a focus on predicting and proving value. My writing reflects this interest.

I think with time you will probably also feel less hesitation. I hope so because I feel sure you have something remarkable and valuable to offer--you just don't seem to know exactly what that is yet.

Be well!

Welcome and feel free to join in. This is just a place for people to 'talk', share files such as quality manual templates, and in general a 'meeting place' for people in quality or who are looking for (typically) quality related information. If you're on the web a lot and the things discussed here interest you, by all means stop by and join in. As you can see, some of the 'threads' are simple and straight. Other's,

The Allan 'Debate'

The ASQ is a 'club' (a group or association of persons formed for a specific, shared purpose - See Wordsmith (http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=club&matchtype=exact)) as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with that, but like in any club there are various factions that want / expect different things. And some want power, and/or recognition.

For quite some time, people here have been debating the ASQ including aspects such as relevance, it's direction and other assorted issues. In fact, many people here found the Cove through a link on the ASQ's web site. Some of those were not happy with the ASQ's web site forum and ended up here because - Well, one can speak relatively freely here, I guess.

The debate is about forming a new organization as an ASQ 'rival' in a sense by those who are not satisfied with what they are 'getting' from the ASQ. Note that there is no intent on my part for the Cove to become such an organization.

I see the ASQ as an extension of the guilds of years ago just as most unions in the US (electricians, pipefitter, etc.) are from the evolution of guilds in Europe years ago.

During the middle ages in Europe, working men of particular trades usually joined associations called craft guilds. These Guilds were forerunners of the modern Unions and served to regulated occupations and preserved a monopoly of crafts . Weavers were probably the first to organize. Quickly the goldsmiths, saddlers, fishmongers, bakers, dyers, glove makers, and other craftsmen saw the benefits of organization and formed their own separate fraternities.

In major cities such as Paris, London, and other large cities there were as many as 50 or more guilds by the 14th century. Although many of the guilds were authorized by the local government, some obtained their charter directly from the king. Guild Rules and Regulations Guild rules were strict. They decreed that nonmembers could not practice the trade within their territory.

In more liberal or sparser populated areas, a worker could become a member as soon as he showed the required degree of skill. In cliquey conservative areas, membership was difficult , or impossible, to obtain. Membership was passed on to sons or sons-in-law of members, or could be purchased from a retiring member at extreme cost.

Guilds regulated standards of quality in merchandise made and sold by their members, and penalties were invoked for inferior merchandise. The weavers' guild, as an example, required a certain number of threads to the inch in standard cloths. As in modern Unions, hours of labor were fixed, and night work or work on holidays was prohibited. At the beginning of the Industrial age these Guild's insistence on obsolete standards and processes became a severe handicap to modernization.

Guild's often provided for care of sick or needy members and members' widows and orphans and since the members of craft Guilds usually lived on the same street, the Guild served as a center of social interest for its members.

Qualifying for membership in a guild involved a long and underpaid (if paid at all)apprenticeship. The apprentice was bound out by their parents to an employer for approximately seven years. The employer committed to feed, clothe, and lodge the apprentice with his family above or behind the shop in exchange for the apprentices labor. When the apprenticeship was completed, the apprentice was free to pursue their craft and work for daily wages. Often though, they opted to travel from town to town seeking more knowledge of their craft. If they were frugal and saved their earnings, they might start a small shop and be accepted for guild membership and privileges.

While the craft guilds dominated small retail sales, the organizations called Merchant Guilds held a stalwart hold on the economy as many members of these guilds engaged in massive wholesale trade with distant places. The far reaching influence of one such group of merchant guilds provided the foundation for the powerful Hanseatic League that dominated the Baltic cities for centuries. The Merchant Guilds held considerable authority in city governments, and their guildhalls were designed to reflect the power of their position. Many of these impressive buildings still stand today. Another form of Guild that was seen in some European cities was designed for charitable and religious purposes.

The aspect of certifications is part of this. Years ago silversmiths, for example, went through training as an apprentice and eventually the person would be ''certified'. That wasn't the word used, but it's the same aspect. Even today in teh US, electricians, for example, go through certain training programs coupled with 'On The Job' training. Starting out as an apprentice, a person eventually becomes a Master Electrician. I have friends who are master carpenters, master electricians, etc.

ASQ certifications are like other certifications. There is set criteria and if one wants to 'be certfied' one takes a test and provides 'other proof of competancy' such as time working in a field or such.

As to this web site, it is not a club per se, but one could liken it to a club. There are a number of 'regulars' who visit (some every day) some of whom may even take their 'longevity' here (how long they've been visiting) as a badge of importance.

But - There are no certifications to be gained here (although we've discussed it in the context of getting CEUs {continuing education units} for maintainance of some certifications). The biggest issue is this is just a simple web site that I personally keep online. Now don't get me wrong - The moderators and the regualar visitors ar the people who literally keep things going. Without them it would be of much less 'value'. years ago it was just a small group of us and this was all advertisement free and just a good place for us to discuss things. But I used to go out and get a lot of information and post it here to start discussions and to, in general, post stuff I thought would be of interest. We are way beyond that now and I want to emphasize the importance of the moderators here. Well, not just the moderators (who contribute 'extra'). The many people who visit and help others out every day keep the site alive. I pretty much sit back now, watch 'the action' and keep the software and server going on a day to day basis.

This all said, the Cove has no 'social status' like the ASQ does. For example, if you tell a potential employer that you visit the Elsmar Cove every day and have learned a lot here that person will probably have no idea what you're talking about and in fact probably advertised (or is in general looking for) a 'formal' certification from a 'formal' ('recognized') organization.

Which is fine with me. Truth be told, I originally saw the forums as a way to get data into a searchable database. My personal database that I could reference. I took a lot of posts from news groups and listserves and posted them here. Back then my main goal was to 'centralize' information. But I did it more as a hobby than anything else, for a number of years.

Anyway, the Cove is just 'the Cove'. No big deal, participation won't get you a job or anything. No certifications. Just information and a fair amount of 'camaraderie'.

If you ever really want to know 'all about the Cove', just go back through some of the threads that are 3 to 6 years old and you can - literally - see how it has evolved. But boiled down, it's just my web site. Nothing more, nothing less.