Folks I have been working/had interactions with in many oragnizations that has customer care depts. & the feedback I received is that most people are disagree with this slogan" customer is always right". Is it right thing to say even when in some cases customer is not right. other people have some reservations too.

Here's a thread concerning this: http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6877&page=1&pp=10

I don't agree that the "customer is always right" but I do acknowledge that the customer is always the customer. Choose your battles wisely.

Dave

It is just another cliche' that sounds politically correct. Many times, the customer is not right, and is part of the relationship for the supplier to educate the customer. But remember what Dave mentioned below. Even wrong, the customer is the one that can make a choice about suppliers.

It is just another cliche' that sounds politically correct. Many times, the customer is not right, and is part of the relationship for the supplier to educate the customer. But remember what Dave mentioned below. Even wrong, the customer is the one that can make a choice about suppliers.

Yeah, what he said. Some times you just need to educate you customer how to handle and process you products. I went through this years ago when some sheet metal parts switched ove to plastics. The guys in the auto plants thought they could be handeled the same as metal and ended up doing some damage, warping parts, and overheating parts. Once I made some rounds to visit and train, things got better. So, yes the customer is always the customer, use some diplomacy and be helpful. Also, I realize sometimes the are just real jerks out ther who will not listen to anyone but themselves.
Don't shoot youself in the foot because of one idiot.
My 2 cents

With previous posts of the "customer is always the customer" and one of the resolution to a problem. If could also be said that the customer is part of your team. Sometimes, team bulilding skills help with difficult customers to the point that I have had customers admit they are wrong.
However, these customers are not large and you have to build a safe place for them to be comfortable enough to do this.

If could also be said that the customer is part of your team.
You have to be careful with this. Way too often the customer will try to run your business, it's the wolf in sheeps clothes.

You have to be careful with this. Way too often the customer will try to run your business, it's the wolf in sheeps clothes.

Amen. With us, this problem occurs a lot with customer audits. Just because they cite something in an audit doesn't mean it's the best way for us to do things.

"The customer is always right" is a slogan, just as is "Quality is our business" and so on.

The gist is that the customer's wishes are places at forefront of the organization's consciousness. Some people go to great lengths to please their customers, some of whom are truly worth that effort.

Savvy people and business gurus will tell you, however, that it is not always cost effective to Do The Gumby for every customer. We would be spinning like weathervanes...some customers should "be fired" and with this I agree.

Such a customer is one who refuses to use a product or service properly or provide reasonable effort to be served: such as using a butter knife to extract stuck toast, or a UPS package recipient refuseing to open the door to a delivery then insisting the delivery person erred in not leaving the pricey package without a signature.

Ugh, I remember at my last job, we got a claim from our major customer for a part coming in damaged. When we got the part back for analysis, it was destroyed - twisted and crushed beyond recognition.

They claimed it showed up in the bin that way, which was suspicious because we had plastic bins formed to locate the product in position - no way it could have been in the bin unless the bin was horribly disfigured as well. When the bin came back, it was fine.

Analysis of the part showed bits of rubber stuck on it - the same type of rubber you find on fork truck tires.

We hemmed and hawed over whether to call them out on it or not, until one day our QM was tired and crabby and just picked up the phone and told somebody the claim was BS.

The customer came right out and said yes, the part did get run over by a fork truck, and we tried to pass it off as your mistake. Evidently he didn't seem to be embarrassed or apologetic about it at all - just everyday business for them.

I wish we could have kicked them to the curb!

I've been a "boss" for nearly forty years. In all that time, I never met another boss who believed "the customer is always right."

In my case and theirs, the phrase was a permitted "fiction" as part of a marketing strategy to make a customer feel special.

The truth is I often fired customers for being jerks to me or my personnel.

When a customer says a product is nonconforming, it should be a standard policy to confirm and agree by independent means. If a customer had EVER tried to pull the fork truck stunt cited above on us, we would have charged him for the investigation time.

If a customer is a fool or just ignorant, there may be a benefit to educating him. If the customer is a liar or a thief (see fork truck above), you need to protect yourself.

Protect against liars by demanding independent confirmation. Protect against thieves by eliminating the opportunities for theft.
Does he lie about the count of products delivered? Create unitized packaging and demand signatures to account for number of packages delivered. We ran into a problem once with a customer who constantly complained about a short count. Upon investigation, we discovered his employees were stealing pieces to use as markers in lunchtime gambling. We confronted the customer's president and suggested a solution: we would repackage in units exactly matching the production for one shift. Employee had to sign for package with exact number and account for spoiled pieces by turning them in rather than independently scrapping them. We asked and customer paid $1,000 in investigation fees and $2.00 extra per carton in packaging. Three months later, the president called us to report he was saving about $3.00/carton in inventory and handling costs and that the unitized packaging was working as a kind of "mistake proofing" since the worker knew he had to empty the carton by the end of the shift, rather than trying to keep track of how many assemblies were made.

We have a customer that makes (in their house)the same parts that we make for them. They are precision stainless steel medical devices. Our customer returns parts as rejected to us, that we are positive that we didn't make. As we can not mark our parts in any way as having been made by us, (smooth surgical surfaces) we have, so far, had to eat it on these jobs. Any suggestions?

We also had a customer that would send an inspector to us to check our parts before shipping. This clown would sleep in his car for an hour or so before stumbling in. In the winter, his measuring equipment would freeze in his trunk, and he would try to reject all of our parts. He also would make me wipe HIS fingerprints from the parts that he touched saying that the parts are rejected for being dirty. He would leave scratch marks from twirling parts in his micrometer, and I would have to remove those too. He would write these up as deviations that he found, and I would have to correspond with his superiors on why our product was bad. When I would try to explain the circumstances, they would dismiss my explanations, saying that 'The customer is always right, and it's up to the source inspector to decide what the standards of acceptance are.'

After 2 years of this jerk and countless 'nonconformances', they dropped us as a vendor. We are all thankful, even though we are losing the revenue.

The customer is NOT always right, and they are not always willing to work with you. You can make some people happy some of the time.... Some jerks are never happy. (Sorry to vent so hard-core - It really built up!)

Welcome to The Cove, H. Majhenich! :bigwave:

That certainly sounds like a vile vendor/customer relationship. Was there periodic discussion of the question "Is this customer worth the trouble?"

I would reprimand, and fire a supplier inspector if such behavior persisted; but it seems likely that it was planned.

We have a customer that makes (in their house)the same parts that we make for them. They are precision stainless steel medical devices. Our customer returns parts as rejected to us, that we are positive that we didn't make. As we can not mark our parts in any way as having been made by us, (smooth surgical surfaces) we have, so far, had to eat it on these jobs. Any suggestions?
If the parts that you make are identical to the ones that the customer produces and you can not mark the parts, please explain how you can be positive they are not the ones you make?

As a suggestion, institute a process whereby you solicit your customer to perform source inspections. I.e., they come to your shop to inspect the parts, before you ship them. If their inspector accepts the parts by way of this source inspection, you should then minimize the chances of them returning your parts, later on. It might cost you some money to facilitate the source inspection, but it could save you some dough if you stop being charged for defective parts you did not manufacture.

If the parts that you make are identical to the ones that the customer produces and you can not mark the parts, please explain how you can be positive they are not the ones you make?

As a suggestion, institute a process whereby you solicit your customer to perform source inspections. I.e., they come to your shop to inspect the parts, before you ship them. If their inspector accepts the parts by way of this source inspection, you should then minimize the chances of them returning your parts, later on. It might cost you some money to facilitate the source inspection, but it could save you some dough if you stop being charged for defective parts you did not manufacture.
Thanks to CSI (Crime Scene Investigation), folks are familiar with forensic techniques. Simply stated, each machine tool and expendable cutting bit have a microscopic "signature" which is readily identifiable. My own machinists didn't need microscopes, they could tell their own work in a heartbeat.

Before accepting a return or refund, you need to agree to two things:

the parts are, indeed, nonconforming
the parts are actually yours.
If you have a question about whether parts are yours or a competitor's (even the customer's in-house work), you need to put the customer on the spot to demonstrate there has been no mixing. No demonstration, no return or refund - it's that simple.

Future methods of protecting integrity of your parts when individual part "cannot" be marked :

Suggest to customer that a nonfunctional mark be added to your parts for "ease of traceability" (we added grooves simultaneously with cutoff - nearly free machining time and nearly impossible to fake or remove.) Sometimes those "cannots" are not firm at all. It can't hurt to ask.
create individual "security" packaging - if you and customer agree a sample is nonconforming, you only accept the sample plus your own parts still in sealed packaging. You'd be surprised how a couple of dollars worth of security tape can take the issue of mixing parts (on purpose) off the table.
There are lots of other considerations - they all come in under Contract Review, including an assessment of the honesty of the customer. I can help protect against a thief - I have a difficult time protecting against a liar.

Welcome to the Cove, H. Majhenich :bigwave: The customer is NOT always right, and they are not always willing to work with you. You can make some people happy some of the time.... Some jerks are never happy. (Sorry to vent so hard-core - It really built up!) No worries about the venting. We all need to do that once in a while, and besides, something good came out of it: You made your first post here. :agree1: Keep them coming.

I have to say that your tale was a good example on how not to treat a supplier. During one period of my life I was that guy who dealt with suppliers, handling initial samples and prototypes. If I had behaved like the clown (appropriate tag) in your example I would have been fired. Simple as that...

As for Identifying unmarked parts. As Wes said: Yes, there are ways. It's not very hard, actually.

/Claes

Our ex-customer source inspector supposedly (according to his co-workers) had a 'special' relationship to his female boss, so his removal wasn't feasible.

As for our customer returns, we could tell the difference in our parts from theirs by the slight difference in radii, diams, etc. If our tooling put in a .022 radius, and they returned parts with a .018 radius, we could tell that they weren't ours. Unfortunately, we couldn't raid their tool room and wave their tooling under their noses. It's all a matter of 'who do you believe?'.
They won't let us do special packaging on the parts, as they claim that they don't want to lose the time removing packaging. They actually send an employee to pick up the parts personally. The idea of source inspection is regarded in the same way as not cost-effective.
We also can't put in any additional markings, as these are surgical implements. If we even put in an additional smooth groove or anything, the parts wouldn't perfectly match the print, and would be rightfully rejected. (These parts go up a step to yet another customer from us and our customer.)

My boss believes that the gains outweigh the losses, and so we continue. It makes me feel like I'm eating dirt.

But - I shouldn't take these guys so seriously, right? It's not my own business, and I need to shrug it off. I think I take too much pride in my work. Anyways, thanks for the advice. I feel much better after the venting, too!

You know what I wished / dream when customer always things they're right? I wish :magic: I become a very successful person, have my own company, become the CEO and make that customers auditor's company (where he/she work) as my supplier. Then I would personnally audit their company and give them 1000000 NCRs. :mad:

Ugh, I remember at my last job, we got a claim from our major customer for a part coming in damaged. When we got the part back for analysis, it was destroyed - twisted and crushed beyond recognition.

They claimed it showed up in the bin that way, which was suspicious because we had plastic bins formed to locate the product in position - no way it could have been in the bin unless the bin was horribly disfigured as well. When the bin came back, it was fine.

Analysis of the part showed bits of rubber stuck on it - the same type of rubber you find on fork truck tires.

We hemmed and hawed over whether to call them out on it or not, until one day our QM was tired and crabby and just picked up the phone and told somebody the claim was BS.

The customer came right out and said yes, the part did get run over by a fork truck, and we tried to pass it off as your mistake. Evidently he didn't seem to be embarrassed or apologetic about it at all - just everyday business for them.

I wish we could have kicked them to the curb!

We also had a customer that would send an inspector to us to check our parts before shipping. This clown would sleep in his car for an hour or so before stumbling in.

I had a client that had a similar problem. They videotaped him sleeping in the car. After a particularly long struggle, one day, they played the videotape during the closing meeting. They did not say a word, just played the videotape in the background, as they held the meeting. The inspector backed off and they never had any other problems with that customer. A different client caught their QS auditor in a different situation. He was supposed to go in at 11:30 PM to audit the midnight shift. He was caught on the security camera with a…umm…a…..hitchhiker. Yeah, that’s it…she was hitchhiking!

Does customer has the right to video tape the oranization?


I had a client that had a similar problem. They videotaped him sleeping in the car. After a particularly long struggle, one day, they played the videotape during the closing meeting. They did not say a word, just played the videotape in the background, as they held the meeting. The inspector backed off and they never had any other problems with that customer. A different client caught their QS auditor in a different situation. He was supposed to go in at 11:30 PM to audit the midnight shift. He was caught on the security camera with a…umm…a…..hitchhiker. Yeah, that’s it…she was hitchhiking!

Does customer has the right to video tape the oranization?

I'm not sure. That would be a contract issue, I suppose. In both of the cases, I mentioned, the organization videotaped their parking lot. I would imagine that an organization should be able to videotape what ever they wanted on their premises, but could they videotape their customer’s location, or could the customer videotape them? I dunno

Does customer has the right to video tape the oranization?A customer bringing a video (or still, for that matter) cam into our premises and taping? Absolutley not! :nono: Not around here they don't. Some tricks of the trade we prefer to keep to ourselves.

/Claes

Videotaping, no. We don't even allow cameras except for our own.

As far as the customer always being right.

Here is what I teach in orientation to new employees:
The customer is always....the customer.
It is our job to find out what they want, because they don't always know. So, we must ask questions to make sure that what they are ordering will work for them.
Nonconformances-the reason that ID and traceability is so important is to identify whether material coming back to us on claims is actually ours, and that it is in fact, nonconforming. It isn't that the customer is trying to cheat us, but if we make it easy for them to make a claim and get paid, pretty soon all the material they get that is not conforming will be from us. So, check the chems, investigate the claim. That keeps our customers happy because they know we won't waste their time paying claims from other suppliers and they improve their operations by improving their traceability.

My dealing with the customer always aims toward making them feel that they are always right, but sometimes I suggest the best way for them to be right.:D

My dealing with the customer always aims toward making them feel that they are always right, but sometimes I suggest the best way for them to be right.:D
:applause: Excellent. The essence of leadership consists in the ability to get people to do things your way while making them believe it was their idea.

:applause: Excellent. The essence of leadership consists in the ability to get people to do things your way while making them believe it was their idea.
It is also the essence of staying married. :rolleyes: (my 12th anniversary is this August ;) )

It is also the essence of staying married. :rolleyes: (my 12th anniversary is this August ;) )
Amen, and congratulations:agree1: .

It is also the essence of staying married. Indeed. The wife is not always right, but she is always the wife... ;)

/Claes

Indeed. The wife is not always right, but she is always the wife... ;)

/Claes
LOL - I was thinking along the lines of the husband... :lmao: ...maybe it goes both ways! :tg:

The customer came right out and said yes, the part did get run over by a fork truck, and we tried to pass it off as your mistake. Evidently he didn't seem to be embarrassed or apologetic about it at all - just everyday business for them.

I wish we could have kicked them to the curb!
At a previous employer, we had a strategic planning consultant that was best friends with the founder/CEO. His 1, 5 and 10(!) year strategic plans were held in high regard.

He had three customer categories:
Gold- The top 20% of your customers that give you 80% of your profits, everything possible was done to maintain their 100% satisfaction.
Ore- The 60% of your customers that give you the other 20% of your profits, find ways to change their attitude (or market) to move them into the Gold category. Everything PRACTICAL to maintain their 100% satisfaction, but DO NOT lose money doing it.
Tailings- The bottom 20% of your customers that give you 100% of your losses. Often the loudest complainers, but may make up a large portion of your revenue (this is not the same as profit). Do everything possible to drive them into your competitors arms.

Our Sales Team was given a list of the Gold and Tailings, updated yearly. One enterprising Sales Manager actually gave an irate Top Tailer's buyer the name and # of our competitor's VP of Sales. We exported a huge loser to them. Our gain, their loss :lmao:

Oh, the old White Elephant trick, ehh? ;)

Good posts so far -- and entertaining stories.

Has anyone ever had a customer demand a complete detail of the product's cost (a breakdown of raw material cost andcosts of each mfg. step) and your profit margin on it? We did (in a prior company). When we told them we didn't give out such things, we were told our competitors did and if we wished to remain a supplier we would, too. This was from a major multinational corp everyone here has heard of. Not sure if we got out of it eventually, gave them a fudged costing, or what.

Good posts so far -- and entertaining stories.

Has anyone ever had a customer demand a complete detail of the product's cost (a breakdown of raw material cost andcosts of each mfg. step) and your profit margin on it?

Ha! No.

Every customer I've ever dealt with has always demanded a 10% cost reduction every year - who cares how much it costs to make?

Maybe it's an automotive thing.

This was from a major multinational corp everyone here has heard of.

I heard of one of the Big 3 doing this several years ago, and sending people in to look at your cost structure, material and labor costs, fixed burden and variable burdens. This was so they could "Help" you improve your costs to reduce the selling price to them.
They probably thought you were gouging them if your margin was over 10% :rolleyes:

It has taken me a few days to catch up. This is an interesting thread.

My old boss used to say, "This job would be a lot easier if it weren't for these da*n customers." ~~ interesting commentary on customer service if you think about it.

We currently have a customer trying to "run" our business and if they were not literally 52.3% of our annual revenue and 39.8% of our annual profit, I would tell them to go fly a kite. The problem with this huge multinational SWEDISH company (no offense Claes) is that they have so many divisions and operating units and profit centers that one hand does not know what the other hand is doing. We supply parts to 5 facilities. We supply the same parts to 3 of those 5 facilities. We have 3 different part numbers for those same parts. :confused: Each facility has it's own purchasing person and quality person and get this - supplier development quality engineer.

Here is a copy of my calendar for the month of September
- Mon - Thur Sept. 5 - 8 XXX from Facility 1
- Tues - Fri Sept 13 - 16 XXX from Facility 3
- Mon - Thur Sept 19 - 22 XXX from Facility 2 & XXX from Facility 5
- Mon - Wed Sept 26 - 28 XXX from Facility 4

Here is the complete assinine part of the whole thing ~~ they are doing the SAME AUDIT!!!! :bonk: I have repeatedly asked for one visit and then have the report shared. They are not buying any of it. So I have to kill an entire month for the same audit - oh and let me not forget our registrar is coming the first week of October for a surveillance audit :mg:

They do the same thing with our TR testing ~~ we spend $10s of thousands of dollars to have our parts certified by a third party and they can not share the test results with the other divisions.

They also have come in and tried to evaluate our cost structure, supplier relationships etc. Our owner finally told the SDQE that if they were going to go through all this they might as well source and manufacture the parts themselves. The look on the SDQE face was priceless :D

Also in the past we have accepted warranty parts that we know were manufactured by another supplier similar to us, becuase prior management was fearful of rejecting claims and losing business. That ended about three seconds after I started much to the chagrin of our customer. COme to find out that the other supplier (our competitor) had not received a warranty claim for 3 years :mad:

OK, I think I am done.

I heard of one of the Big 3 doing this several years ago, and sending people in to look at your cost structure, material and labor costs, fixed burden and variable burdens. This was so they could "Help" you improve your costs to reduce the selling price to them.
They probably thought you were gouging them if your margin was over 10% :rolleyes:

My very first exposure to Quality was GM's Targets for Excellence audit > 20 years ago now.

They swore the cost data would be kept confidential. The boss reluctantly agreed. The audit was not even over before the GM buyer was calling demanding an immediate price decrease because of the numbers the audit team just reported.

As I recall, there was a hasty and nasty meeting, and the auditors were shown the door.