This weekends F1 race in Phoenix saw 14 cars retire before the start, due to tyre safety concerns. Only six cars competed. Amazing...

Ralf Schumacher pranged big time in the Friday practice, thereby illuminating the fact: Michelin had botched things royally by bringing a tyre that could not be used with any guarantee of safety, and the teams running on their tyres pulled out.

The technology race in F1 is one of the fiercest to be found, and one of the things that has kept me interested over the years. This time, however, things seem to have gone too far. :nope:


Who won the race? Michael Schumacher, but this time: Who cares? Surely this must be one of the greatest PR fiascos of all time? The audience must have been furious.


/Claes

I was listening to the news this morning, the fans were throwing stuff on the track, booed the winner, cancelled the winner's circle activities. It sounded like a real fiasco.

Yes, it was strange, especially since I thought it was in Indiana. :lmao:

Seriously, they mentioned that Ferarri had problems with tires (last year, I believe) in Spain and pulled out.

What I found really strange is that, in the U.S., Michelin did not pull their TV ads. So the commentators would spend 5 or 10 minutes discussing how the Michelin tires were not thought to be safe, and then here comes a Michelin ad. Kinda made me want to go out and buy some of their tires. Not.

I wish I could remember the name of the guy who came in third. He seemed to be just glad to be there.

Yes, it was strange, especially since I thought it was in Indiana. :lmao: .Oops.. So it was.... What I found really strange is that, in the U.S., Michelin did not pull their TV ads. So the commentators would spend 5 or 10 minutes discussing how the Michelin tires were not thought to be safe, and then here comes a Michelin ad. Kinda made me want to go out and buy some of their tires. Not.Brilliant... On the other hand maybe they didn't have time to react? The teams using their product pulled out after the parade lap.I wish I could remember the name of the guy who came in third. He seemed to be just glad to be there.That would be Tiago Monteiro, and he should be... He won't be getting any points in a "normal" race. At least not in that car. :rolleyes:

/Claes

Honestly, I visit Cove today to see if someone will comment yesterday F1 issue.
I see there are few comments.

I'm not a biggest F1 fan in the world, but I watch almost every GP at TV.
Bridgestone has big troubles with performance this year, but who cares, it is only problem of Ferrari and it is good for this sport, some say.
Now when Michelin falls it is problem of all teams and immediatelly rules (track shape) has to be changed to assure good competition. I don't find it as fair game.

Do you know something about negative trade consequences of this issue for Michelin?

Do you know something about negative trade consequences of this issue for Michelin?That remains to be seen I guess, but it is an interesting question. Time will tell.

/Claes

Michelin. Because so much is riding on your tires.

Except for your race car. The one you've been getting ready for weeks.

It's unfortunate they didn't have time to pull their ads. I think if the ads hadn't aired, people would just think "Oh, their racing tires weren't safe." With those ads showing, everyone is thinking "Oh, their MICHELIN tires weren't safe."

Bridgestone kinda beat up on Michelin without even trying. Not only was there the F1 debacle, Bridgestone supplied the tires for the Champ cars that ran later in the afternoon, and was still running as the NASCAR race finished. For those who don't know what the Champ cars are, they look a little like an F1 car, but are not as sophisticated or expen$ive.

expen$ive. :applause:
It reminds me a F1 fan with a board I saw yesterday: "$ back". :lmao:

I was there and left after the first lap. I have been a fan since the 70's, so this really upsets me. If it does come back to the US I'm not sure it will be at Indy. The town put on a great show with a Jazz festival and several car shows. all in all it was a great weekend....except for the farce of a race.

...except for the farce of a race.
What was your opinion, what was opinion other people with you at Indy about the way it should go, to satisfy spirit of this sport, as well fans.

From quality point of view, someone from Michelin loose with 7.2.2. ;)

I think it was too late to say: "rule regarding one set of tires for race is too hard for tyre manufacturer and too dangerous for drivers". There was a right time in Australia and it was not now, when suddenly only "Michelin-tired" cars have problems after 8 wins in a row.

I was there and left after the first lap. I have been a fan since the 70's, so this really upsets me. If it does come back to the US I'm not sure it will be at Indy. The town put on a great show with a Jazz festival and several car shows. all in all it was a great weekend....except for the farce of a race.


c, I am sorry to hear about that. If the track owner has to refund the fans' money, as they were speculating on TV, who could blame them for telling F1 to get lost?

Did you hear of or see any problems after the race? The debris on the track was not a good sign. I sure wouldn't like running over glass in an open car doing 180 or so...

I hope calmer heads prevailed.

F1 can keep their racing out of the USA. We have enough politics in this country with out all the BS from the drivers, the managers and the F1 owners.

F1 forgot the reason why they have the contracts and the sponsors

The Fans !!!

Something that NASCAR continues to remember.

The audience must have been furious.

/Claes
Claes,

The audience was furious enough to sue FIA. There is at least one race fan suing FIA for reimbursement of race tickets plus expenses to attend the "race". Here is an excerpt from the Indystar.com web site:


June 20, 2005

Fan sues over Grand Prix 'race'


By Matthew Glenesk
matthew.glenesk@indystar.com

Larry Bowers, a Colorado resident, has filed a class action lawsuit against the Federation de l’Automobile (FIA), Formula One Group, Formula One Administration, Michelin Tires and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway following Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.

Bowers, represented by Indianapolis-based attorney William Bock III, filed suit claiming the 2005 USGP was fraudulent after 14 of the 20 drivers pitted and withdrew after the formation lap of the race because of a dispute surrounding the use of Michelin tires on the track.

The lawsuit claims Formula One, the FIA, Michelin, the teams equipped by Michelin and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway forged an agreement allowing the Michelin teams to participate in the formation lap and then exit the track prior to the start of the race.

“The alleged ‘race’ participated by just three teams did not constitute a true grand prix race under FIA and Formula One rules in that the race was started with an insufficient number of participants,” the lawsuit reads.

Bowers, who bought five tickets to this year’s race and has been a USGP ticket holder since its inception in 2000, is looking to receive a refund for the tickets as well as other costs paid toward attending the USGP.
...

Call Star reporter Matthew Glenesk at (317) 444-6492.


Jaime

I got home from church and tuned in on the race after it started. I thought everyone had crashed or broken because the field seemed so empty. When I heard that everyone had quit I just thought "candyas*'s" and tuned in the real race in Michigan. Those guys would run on rims if they'd let 'em.

I wake up in the middle of the night only to watch 6 cars running, and even with traffic so clear, MS had to run his team mate to the grass...

The audience was furious enough to sue FIA. There is at least one race fan suing FIA for reimbursement of race tickets plus expenses to attend the "race". Here is an excerpt from the Indystar.com web site:
“The alleged ‘race’ participated by just three teams did not constitute a true grand prix race under FIA and Formula One rules in that the race was started with an insufficient number of participants,” the lawsuit reads.Insufficent number of participants... He may have them on that account. As far as I can tell, that is correct, but does the parade lap count as taking part and then retiring? I don't know.

The aftermath will be a lot more interesting than the "race" itself, and the blaim game is already escalating :argue: .

/Claes

Schumachers comment that"even if others were in competetion we would have won" seems very optmistic. Atleast FERRARI got some chance to be on podium in this season. I am happy that last benchers like JORDAN got the oppurtunity to show up,have they come within 10 for first time???
I think F1 is becoming a "catch me if U can" sport. F1 management frames the rules and car makers try the ways to beat it, there should be some limit which otherwise my turn this game to mere "follow the rule sport".
:(

We will see what comes after meeting in Paris on June, 29th.
All 7 teams must explain their decission and I guess they will be pushed by FIA to pay all sues.

Funny comments?
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050621/OPINION02/306210001/1093

I got home from church and tuned in on the race after it started. I thought everyone had crashed or broken because the field seemed so empty. When I heard that everyone had quit I just thought "candyas*'s" and tuned in the real race in Michigan. Those guys would run on rims if they'd let 'em.

I would guess that if the drivers in your "real" race had voluntarily gone out and raced at 200mph with tyres that they KNEW were going to explode on a corner after 10 laps, that would pretty much suggest that they weren't too bright? :rolleyes:

Maybe they should have a go at F1 instead of that boring stuff where you just go round and round in circles? They'd have to get used to some of the more technical differences, like having to use a steering wheel, brakes, etc. but it might be fun. :)

As soon as Michelin announced it believed the tyres to be unsafe :ca: there was no way anyone on those tyres was going to race - even though some of the drivers wanted to. The teams would have been putting themselves on the chopping block thanks to the wonderfully litigious system that we now have to live with.

And of course it's the good ol' US of A that we have to thank for that system - "my little Billy broke his hand punching another child in his class...I'm going to sue the teacher, the school, the education authority and the government for $100,000,000".

But on the plus side, you did give us Bruce Springsteen and The West Wing. :applause:

And of course it's the good ol' US of A that we have to thank for that system - "my little Billy broke his hand punching another child in his class...I'm going to sue the teacher, the school, the education authority and the government for $100,000,000".You forgot to mention the kid whose face got in the way.

IMaybe they should have a go at F1 instead of that boring stuff where you just go round and round in circles? They'd have to get used to some of the more technical differences, like having to use a steering wheel, brakes, etc. but it might be fun. :)




Actually, they do race road courses. Check them out in Sanoma CA this weekend.

You forgot to mention the kid whose face got in the way.

Heh-heh-heh! Nice line. :applause:

Of course I'm being deliberately facetious (one of the few English words with all the vowels used once each in the correct order).

:topic:

But there is a serious point there - re: the cavalier approach to safety which is still adopted by some companies? And the incredibly litigious society we now find ourselves in?

Anyone got any (presumably anonymous) scary safety stories???

By the way, the reference to "American cars not having steering wheels" was a Fawlty Towers reference. Kudos to anyone who picked it up.

Being an F1 fan, I will admit to being disappointed at the outcome of the Indy Grand Prix. Of course, I am rather happy that it didn't happen at the Montreal Grand Prix. :)

I do support the drivers/teams for their actions. With all of the so-called improvements made to the rules in the name of safety (way to go, Bernie and Max!), the teams had justification for their actions...IMO. Consider the flack that Kimi received for driving around the circuit with a delaminating tire. He was lucky that the tire straps held and he wasn't hit in the head by tire when it finally gave out.

And consider the possibility of Turn 13 as two Michelin-shod tires enter it and blow out simultaneously. One car hits the barrier while the other car hits the first one and launches into the "safety fence". I can only imagine what the public outcry would have been should the fans have been hurt (or worse).

This whole race was a no-win situation. Turn 13 had to stay - not only was the one of the better (i.e., highly visual and exciting) parts of the course, but to change the course due to an inferior part would not be fair to those with equipment able to handle the existing course. Safety was greatly compromised...both to the drivers and the public. Rules prevented Michelin from providing safe tires to the teams (as part of the fallout, FIA should investigate the validity of that rule).

I cheer for a Michelin-shod team...and was vastly disappointed that they did not race. But rather than waste all of this time pointing fingers, the teams, Michelin and the FIA should spend their time figuring out what went wrong and what modifications to the rules might be in order to prevent this kind of fiasco from happening again.

rather than waste all of this time pointing fingers, the teams, Michelin and the FIA should spend their time figuring out what went wrong and what modifications to the rules might be in order to prevent this kind of fiasco from happening again.Well said, and absolutely true.

/Claes

Michelin root cause investigation result:
"The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005".

Michelin root cause investigation result:
"The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005".
That's not root cause; it's rewording the bloody obvious: "We made tires that were not fit for use in the application." Still leaves a lot of unanswered questions :bonk: .

Michelin root cause investigation result:
"The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005".
What's the source of this quote? Did Michelin really say that this is the root cause?

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/crashnet/2005/06/27/news/formulaone/113866.html


Not released on Michelin's website as far as I can see. Interesting article though.

More quotes:

"Given the evolutions concerning the cars' aerodynamics, the regulations which govern the sport and the nature of track surfaces, etc, Michelin carries out testing in the course of each season with a view to developing the tyres which are the most suited to each event. Two key elements must be known about the Indianapolis circuit - turn 13, with its severe banking, is the only turn of its kind in a season of 19 races, and testing at Indianapolis was not possible.

"As a consequence, in order to define the specification of its tyres for Indianapolis, Michelin had to carry out simulation work based on the results of less severe testing at other venues and on estimations concerning the specific conditions likely to be met at Indianapolis in 2005. The Michelin investigations have revealed that the loads exerted on the rear left tyre through turn 13 at Indianapolis were far superior to the highest estimations of Michelin's engineers. This year, the situation through this corner turned out to be altered by the extreme combination of the speed, lateral acceleration and additional dynamic load. The tyres which Michelin took were therefore insufficiently adapted to the extreme conditions of turn 13 in 2005. This was a problem."

Michelin says that it has revised its simulation model for banked corners, such as turn 13 at Indianapolis,, but has asked that testing at the Brickyard be made possible in order to prevent a repeat of the situation encountered in 2005.

Michelin investigations have revealed that the loads exerted on the rear left tyre through turn 13 at Indianapolis were far superior to the highest estimations of Michelin's engineers.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I wonder why Bridgestone's engineers didn't make the same mistake(s), if the presumption that Bridgestone also had no access for testing is correct.

What's the source of this quote? Did Michelin really say that this is the root cause?
No, I say it is a root cause. :)

I took it from www.formula1.com

I've already mentioned 7.2.2, am I right?

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I wonder why Bridgestone's engineers didn't make the same mistake(s), if the presumption that Bridgestone also had no access for testing is correct.

The announcers were commenting that it may have been possible that Firestone - a related company to Bridgestone - was aware of the circuit being regraded and had similar tire issues prior to the running of the Indy 500. They had the course worked on and adapted their tires for the Indy 500 accordingly. The announcers speculated that perhaps Firestone shared this information with Bridgestone prior to the F1 Grand Prix.

But that's speculation and I have yet to see anything else validating this line of thought.

No, I say it is a root cause. But why did Michelin "under-evaluate the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005"?

/Claes

But why did Michelin "under-evaluate the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005"?

/Claes
I am afraid that we will never know for sure. Formula 1 is one of my favorite topics, so I have been following this debacle in several websites and blogs, which contain really in-depth insights to the Indy fiasco.
This is a subject that is more political than technical. Michelin has already admitted that they screwed up. The understatement of the year, in my opinion.
F1 has been racing at Indy for the last several years. The downforce for the 2005 cars is NOT that much different than last year's, even though aerodynamic changes have been introduced this season. So, Michelin HAD to be aware of the loads which the tires are subjected to.

They have probably gambled with two types of rubber (remember they must have a back up spec.) that were too soft. They gambled, trying to maintain the advantage they have over the Bridgestone tire this year, and the losers were the fans and the Michelin shod teams. They did the right thing by deciding to advise the teams NOT to race, due to safety concerns, but in a "game" fed by billions of dollars in sponsorship and fans support, they really damaged the image of F1 around the World and more particularly in the US.