After a note to Marc,
I have attached below the text body of my mail to Marc regarding the set up of a focused teaching and learning area of the Cove.


Taking into consideration, the Reading room is getting on quite fine. May I
suggest, the set up of a portion of the Cove that would focus on teaching?
The reading room accomodates threads and posts regarding papers, articles and publications.
I firmly believe a "room" that would accomodate, teaching, learning and Peer
recognition would be a natural development.
A name? I thought of "The classroom", "The auditorium", and "The Cove
college". Sounds kind of cheesy I know, yet a thread discussing this may bear some fruit.
Wallace.

The Cove seems to be the ideal place for many rooms associated with teaching and learning. You could say, it's a possible and potential "cyber college". ;) :lol:

It is an interesting prospect and one that we could expect to discuss in the course of this forum's development.

But I must say that developing a course, deliverable either in person or through a cyber forum, is a very large amount of work. Folks typically engage in such an effort with expectation that there will be some sort of compensation.

I write my materials (now editing Arresting Absenteeism, Part 3 of the Stealth Quality Series) with a how-to format that would possibly be transferrable to a textbook or other publishable medium. Their context is suitable for a training environment, I think and I hope.

I won't deny that I hope to print them at some point--would my articles, if added together and formatted to fit a book, be worthy of publishing and (gasp!) sell? I will admit to some selfishness now and say I send them to The Reading Room so as to get feedback and sometimes editing insight. I can't do all this (it really does take a lot of time) out of sheer altruism, as I'm still a working stiff with occasional time off to pursue my true interests.

All of this is why we still have institutions for delivering structured classes, online or in person.

Informal learning is, of course completely opportune. When people post questions or browse here, they do so out of having an interest or questioning mind. They have a specific problem or just want to see what's churning right now. I have had my best moments when my students ask me a question and I can give about 10 to 15 minutes of this-and-that. It is information they wanted and, since they asked they are really soaking it in. It is hard to do in a set format, where one goes through a curriculum, covers points and assesses results afterward.

Students will always take what feels relevant and forget the rest, so I am not sure how we could build a teaching forum without losing our freewheeling sense and scope.

Does this make sense?

Students will always take what feels relevant and forget the rest, so I am not sure how we could build a teaching forum without losing our freewheeling sense and scope.
Does this make sense?


Relevant points Jennifer,
Formats of communications are in a cycle of change, and, I frimly believe we at the Cove may wish to investigate and even participate in some of the new formats of communication.
One format that seems to becoming a mainstream format of communication is "Pod casting".
I took part in my first Pod cast recently. It related to my involvement with an information management tool, and, I'm really excited about this new form of communication.
The setting up of a learning and teaching room at the Cove, may be quite easy.
Offering lectures and or presentations that can be accessed through the Cove for learning and teaching purposes, would be an asset for the future support and development of the Cove.
I believe we would indeed retain our free flowing and relaxing atmosphere.
There's lots of opportunities for sure.
Wallace.

Pod casting sounds fascinating. Can you direct me to a place where I can better understand its dynamics?

My thanks!

Pod casting sounds fascinating. Can you direct me to a place where I can better understand its dynamics?

Pod castings kind of new. it's a form of mp3 downloading from the web. you simply download and load into your media player, and there you have it. Pod casts cover any thing from politics to religion.
Google search pod cast and you'll get a few hits.

Pod casts would be just one of many aspects of a teaching and learning room at the Cove. A knowledge base of lectures could be compiled to form the basis for this suggestion.
I'm thinking more like, the Cove is a place with many rooms and, each room has a teaching and learning aspect.
Wallace.

Sounds very good in that such a recording might be playable in the car while commuting--is this so? Like audio books, which I enjoy when the radio stations stink.

Again, we find ourselves at the point where the products are being created.

Who among us would be good with recording a lecture for such availability?

Does a lecture that is given in the business--internal training--belong to the business, or is this an issue only if the product is being sold?

My mind is moving forward into aspects like that.

You input, everyone?

Sounds very good in that such a recording might be playable in the car while commuting--is this so? Like audio books, which I enjoy when the radio stations stink.
Again, we find ourselves at the point where the products are being created.
Who among us would be good with recording a lecture for such availability?
Does a lecture that is given in the business--internal training--belong to the business, or is this an issue only if the product is being sold?
My mind is moving forward into aspects like that.
You input, everyone?

Pod casts are public domain just like radio stations.
Casts are just an avenue of possibility.
A teaching a learning room at the cove may be a mixture of transmissions (Pod casts), zipped lectures, and an open college of sorts.

Where are we placed now in relation to these future possibilities?
I believe we already have the structure in place. The Cove is an open forum College of sorts as it stands now. People come to the Cove to learn and teach.
I can reveal that many of my most senior colleagues have visited the Cove, and used it as an open College. Since my joining, I have indeed matured regarding my business acumen and knowledge of system.
Wallace

Pod casts are public domain just like radio stations.
Casts are just an avenue of possibility.
A teaching a learning room at the cove may be a mixture of transmissions (Pod casts), zipped lectures, and an open college of sorts.

Where are we placed now in relation to these future possibilities?
I believe we already have the structure in place. The Cove is an open forum College of sorts as it stands now. People come to the Cove to learn and teach.
I can reveal that many of my most senior colleagues have visited the Cove, and used it as an open College. Since my joining, I have indeed matured regarding my business acumen and knowledge of system.
WallaceThe Cove is a splendid open college. I really enjoy lurking here, as it provides me with unparalleled learning opportunities.

Certainly this provides a good place of availability for audio offerings, to go with The Reading Room and an educational forum is, I am sure, a step in the natural progression of the place.

I remain stuck on the How's and Wherefore's, as with AllanJ's concept of a cyberlearning institute because of the commercial nature of our world.

Where shall we generate such freeware?

Would the originators ever hope to commercialize on the offerings that were once freely available in cyberspace? (we must all earn our livings and I reiterate that creating a class is a large amount of work--this being noted while I prepare a curriculum for an adult ed class in personal financial management)

If the recording is of an existing lecture, would there be constraints such as corporate permission of ownership release, privacy issues or the like?

Can we ensure the Cove is protected against claims involving accusations of flawed or faulty content? (I am thinking about the kind of Errors and Ommissions insurance that consultants are advised to get)

And so on. The devil is in these details, I am thinking.

Input, anyone?

The Cove is a splendid open college. I really enjoy lurking here, as it provides me with unparalleled learning opportunities.

Certainly this provides a good place of availability for audio offerings, to go with The Reading Room and an educational forum is, I am sure, a step in the natural progression of the place.

I remain stuck on the How's and Wherefore's, as with AllanJ's concept of a cyberlearning institute because of the commercial nature of our world.

Where shall we generate such freeware?

Would the originators ever hope to commercialize on the offerings that were once freely available in cyberspace? (we must all earn our livings and I reiterate that creating a class is a large amount of work--this being noted while I prepare a curriculum for an adult ed class in personal financial management)

If the recording is of an existing lecture, would there be constraints such as corporate permission of ownership release, privacy issues or the like?

Can we ensure the Cove is protected against claims involving accusations of flawed or faulty content? (I am thinking about the kind of Errors and Ommissions insurance that consultants are advised to get)

And so on. The devil is in these details, I am thinking.

Input, anyone?
I see this as a variation on the theme as presented by Allan J. A baby steps offering if you will. I agree, "the devil is in the details", and one of the first things on the agenda if implemented, would be to retain legal representation.

I see this as a variation on the theme as presented by Allan J. A baby steps offering if you will. I agree, "the devil is in the details", and one of the first things on the agenda if implemented, would be to retain legal representation.

Absolutely not! :mg:
I certainly don't want to be seen as some agent provocateur here. :nope:
I'm merely speaking my mind regarding where the Cove is now and where the Cove may choose to go.
I'm more than happy with the current format of the Cove.

Recently however I have noted, a lot of new people asking those questions that you and I may have asked when first getting our quality feet wet.
I'm thinking, the Cove is getting kind of bogged down these days by answering the same old same old questions. I don't mind at all answering those same old same olds, (and even asking them) as I'm always on a learning curve myself. Yet I'm also thinking, maybe the Cove should have a garduated level of membership, or maybe we should set up rooms for graduated levels of understanding, and offer presecribed intro's, lessons or even lectures that include downloads for learning and teaching purposes.
I've been a member at the Cove since 2000, and I was lurking way before that. I've seen the Cove evolve and develop. I also believe we are prime for some new additions too.
Just me thinking out loud though. :rolleyes:
Wallace ;)

At some level, it sounds like a simple FAQ would address many of these issues. There is currently a very nice FAQ about the "nuts 'n bolts" of posting, etc. Why not just add an FAQ on quality issues?

It is already common for oldtimers to post something to the effect "There was a similar question earlier. Check this link for what was said the last time around."

I would suggest adding a new area - akin to the reading room - where people could propose topics for inclusion in a FAQ. They or others could submit a draft of an answer to the question. After a little refining, a final draft of the Q&A could be added to a general FAQ. I expect moderators might often be the ones to propose questions as they see certain topics coming up repeatedly in their forums.

Actually, this is starting to sound a lot like the proposal for a glossary/definitions list made a few weeks ago. The idea is similar, just a different focus - providing complete answers to a small number of common questions, rather than a brief definitions ot a large number of terms.


Tim F

Absolutely not! :mg:
I certainly don't want to be seen as some agent provocateur here. :nope:
I'm merely speaking my mind regarding where the Cove is now and where the Cove may choose to go.
I'm more than happy with the current format of the Cove.

Recently however I have noted, a lot of new people asking those questions that you and I may have asked when first getting our quality feet wet.
I'm thinking, the Cove is getting kind of bogged down these days by answering the same old same old questions. I don't mind at all answering those same old same olds, (and even asking them) as I'm always on a learning curve myself. Yet I'm also thinking, maybe the Cove should have a garduated level of membership, or maybe we should set up rooms for graduated levels of understanding, and offer presecribed intro's, lessons or even lectures that include downloads for learning and teaching purposes.
I've been a member at the Cove since 2000, and I was lurking way before that. I've seen the Cove evolve and develop. I also believe we are prime for some new additions too.
Just me thinking out loud though. :rolleyes:
Wallace ;)
Answering the same old questions "ad infinitum" stands out above all the rest within this thread topic as I see it. If this were the core motivation for sustaining this thread, I would be most agreeably inclined to participate.

Unlike you, I am relatively new to the Cove. Perhaps both of us, for similar reasons, originally searched for such a place as the Cove. For fact, I was searching for reliable information. Since becoming a member at the Cove, I've found reliable information. The Cove is already a Gold Mine for those seeking dependable information concerning their quality questions.

The problem (if there is a problem) as I see it, is that a newbie in a frantic mode to solve an immediate problem, coupled with poor searching skills has to get dirty, digging for these golden nuggets of trustworthy, tried and true bits of knowledge.

I admit to having been very frustrated on many occasions when searching for a specific bit of information within the hallowed halls of the Cove. In order to find value adding information the "COVER" must quite often sift through all the chaff that goes along with it.

When I could not find my answer (in what I considered a reasonable amount of time), I would ask the question. Often exposing myself to the wrath and pithy comments from those who are tired of answering the same old questions. I can't blame them for getting irritated. The Cove Professionals nerves seem to wear thin too, when people seeking information ask their questions poorly. Again, I cannot blame those offering professional advice and comment for getting a bit short fused.

The fact remains that the Cove is a place where people come together for a common cause. Some need/want help and others need/want to give that help. I believe there is another way for NEW people to find, as you say, “answers to the same OLD questions”. Keeping in mind that NEW people are seeking solid answers to what they perceive to be NEW questions, I would conclude that we have “system breakdown” rather than people problems. Furthermore, my hunch is that NEW people coming to the Cove are seeking answers to specific questions, rather than working their way through a classroom of study. Agreeably, many people, myself included, are in need of formal study. But, the fact is most of us are working stiffs trying to survive one day at a time.

Wallace, you have a GRAND idea, but I propose a simpler course of action, a course of action that could be incrementally implemented with existing Cove resources. I propose that the very BEST of all questions and ANSWERS be gleaned (extracted) from existing threads within each forum. Separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Possibly create sub forums titled Frequently Answered Questions (FAQ) or “sticky” these perils of wisdom with precise searchable titles that don’t give you 10,000 threads/posts to sift.

New Covers could then be justifiably encouraged to read the FAQ of that specific forum before posting a question. With some housekeeping activity, authorized and coordinated by Marc, I believe it possible for some willing forum moderators to bring this about over a period of time. Eventually, OLD Covers wouldn’t have to “answer so many of the same old questions over, and over, and over again. And, NEW Covers would have an effective tool (FAQ) for that quick answer they are searching for. (SIDENOTE: I wonder what the effect of specific FORUM FAQ would have on the Cove’s ‘search hit rate’ counts.)

Tim, how coincidental can this be. I was typing my response at the same time you where posting yours. :applause: :agree1:

At some level, it sounds like a simple FAQ would address many of these issues. There is currently a very nice FAQ about the "nuts 'n bolts" of posting, etc. Why not just add an FAQ on quality issues?

It is already common for oldtimers to post something to the effect "There was a similar question earlier. Check this link for what was said the last time around."

I would suggest adding a new area - akin to the reading room - where people could propose topics for inclusion in a FAQ. They or others could submit a draft of an answer to the question. After a little refining, a final draft of the Q&A could be added to a general FAQ. I expect moderators might often be the ones to propose questions as they see certain topics coming up repeatedly in their forums.

Actually, this is starting to sound a lot like the proposal for a glossary/definitions list made a few weeks ago. The idea is similar, just a different focus - providing complete answers to a small number of common questions, rather than a brief definitions ot a large number of terms.


Tim F

I like your idea Don. :agree1: :applause:
Maybe a house clean is in order. :bonk:
Wallace. :)

Does anyone have any contemporary comments on this topic?

The same problem of repeat questions occurs on the "other" board at ASQ. In particular, the forum for certification questions is especially frustrating because ASQ does not have enough FAQ's on its certification web page. Even if they did, it may not help. Some posters do not even look but I really think that many believe they have a unique question that has never been asked before. Most are willing to look at the threads that answer the questions once someone provides a link.

At least Marc has a search feature on this board. ASQ does not even have that. I have thought about creating a list of responses to FAQ's that I normally give, saving them in Word and then do a copy and paste when they occur. If enough of the Cove regulars did something similar for their favorite topics it would help but would be a boring read after the umpteeth time.

Bill Pflanz

Good points Bill. I, for one, don't mind answering repeated questions. This gives the opportunity of welcoming new posters and assuring them there really is someone "living" on the other side of the screen. I see value in FAQs but there is nothing like the "buzz" a new poster feels when he knows he has been accepted by a real person. Just my opinion.

Dave

Does anyone have any contemporary comments on this topic?

Marc

For a newbie wanting the answer "now", the Cove is a huge data mine.

Few have the time or patience to dig for gold. So they ask the same old question.

Rather than a FAQ, why not publish a "Dummies Guide to ISO/TS/etc" type book and make some money.

The Cove archive can provide what no other such book has...many real world examples from different industries.

Most how to books I read when I started out were just a rehash of the rules.

What the Cove gave me was 5 or 6 examples from which I could build the system I wanted.

I bet people would even offer to help. I would, I think it would be fun to develop a book on line.

IMHO , you can keep any money because you created this resource and it has helped us all over the years.

Who knows ASQ may even publish it.

An interesting idea. Collaboration software would be an issue. I'll thnk about the idea.

I did start a similar project back in the late 1990's but quickly abandoned it because of the many, many differences I experienced from company to company.

Pod casts are public domain just like radio stations. ...

Actually, that is not quite correct. Podcasts, like radio or television broadcasts, are PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. They are NOT "public domain" because the content is still protected by copyright.

I am not a lawyer (solicitor) but as an occasional writer I have had to educate myself on this issue. Under international law and most national legal systems, a work that is an expression of an idea (book, paper, song, international standard, photograph, poem, musical score; or a performance of music, a play, dance and so on) is protected by copyright as soon as it is put into tangible form (or performed). It does not have to have a specific copyright statement on it - the protection is automatic.

"Public domain" has a very specific legal meaning when applied to copyrights. Specifically, it refers to work that is not protected by copyright. There are only three ways that can happen. First, a copyright automatically expires after a period of time determined by national law - I think in most places it is between 75 and 125 years. Second, in the USA (and possibly other countries) anything produced by a Federal government employee in the performance of their official duties is automatically in the public domain (but may be subject to control under privacy or secrecy laws.) Third, an author may include a statement in the work that it is free of copyright and is placed in the public domain.

So, for example, the score of Beethoven's Symphony # 3 is in the public domain because of its age -- but a recording of that symphony made in 1959 by the London Symphony Orchestra is not, because the recording of the performance is still protected by copyright. However, the recording is publicly available. A broadcast of that recording on radio or a podcast does not remove the copyright -- in fact, the broadcaster should be paying a license fee to the copyright owner.

Another example: a document that is an autographed copy of the Beethoven score is in the public domain, but if it is locked away in a collecor's safe it is not publicly available.

I, for one, don't mind answering repeated questions.I blow hot and cold on this. I know repeat questions are inevitable (e.g.: How do I implement ISO 14001?), but sometimes I do some searches, give some links, and suggest some homework.

I do hope we remember an old thread:
Responding to Questions by 'Newbies': Attitude and Intimidation (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7759)

Second, in the USA (and possibly other countries) anything produced by a Federal government employee in the performance of their official duties is automatically in the public domain (but may be subject to control under privacy or secrecy laws.)

That also includes anything produced FOR the Federal government. For example, I am not a government employee, but am a contractor doing work for the government. Much of my writing that appears here on the Cove belongs in the Public Domain. Though it is still considered common courtesy to acknowledge one's sources, even if Public Domain.

I have been a daily visitor to the cove and have been mining the information in the threads almost on a daily basis. However I do find it difficult to return to the information that I found on an earlier search. My search skills are not very good as evidence by my lack of success. Is there any information on how to search properly, i.e., get the results without reading through many nor relevant posts?:thanx:

Well, I'm a newbie, on the forum as well. I have been reading on other forums for years, and I have rarely posted a question. usually this happens, after at least one year reading. I see as well, that same questions, posted several times are a problem. After 2 months, reading daily, (Ok, 8-10 hours), I have already some overview of what is happening, and able to suggest something.
So :
1) Why you don't expect from new users a certain period of participation before, they post the first question. Let say, you should subscribe, and visit the forum regularly, spend on it some time, not necessary posting, but I think that it would be useful, to have at least some posts, before you ask the first question. I'm quite happy that I found the forum, and I have access to it. I don't think that I can complain, or abuse of it, and the time of those I will probably solicit help. Most of the forums die, or get boring, due to the problem raised by ?, repeated posting. So the old knowledgeable participants go away, and those who remain, are talking about nothing, or at least not in a professional level.
So make the forum Lean, at least from that point of view, that "If you can't add value, don't create waste".:D I don't know how it sounds. So let say if I have already posted my opinion at least on 50-100 topics, somebody (moderator, Marc ??), may take the time, and on my request ?, check if I'm mature enough to be allowed to post my first question. It's only one way, most probably after 100 posts, you know the person enough to see, if he is good for new question posting. I think that from newbies point of view, this is more "acceptable", than having no access, or having only access to an inferior level forum. Think about it.
2) Learning center
I don't think, that the really accent, is on free information. Yesterday evening, thinking about something( I don't remember anymore what about. You know those hyperactive child, my brain is something like that, :bonk: ), why nobody sells a book, a game, for 1 dollar ? I would buy, as many as I can read, need, or maybe more. Now I have to copy, the games, and rent books. There is already so much info on the net, that you can not digest. A search is a waste of time. More than you can " digest" is chaos. The well sorted, cheap info, is a gold mine.
Kind regards
György

1) Why you don't expect from new users a certain period of participation before, they post the first question. Let say, you should subscribe, and visit the forum regularly, spend on it some time, not necessary posting, but I think that it would be useful, to have at least some posts, before you ask the first question.
Not a bad thought, but I think a lot of folks get here through Google searches when they need some information in a hurry, and one of the great things about the Cove is that answers generally come very quickly. I wouldn't want to withhold information from a person who has a gun at his head if the information is readily available, and it almost always is.


2) Learning center
I don't think, that the really accent, is on free information. Yesterday evening, thinking about something( I don't remember anymore what about. You know those hyperactive child, my brain is something like that, :bonk: ), why nobody sells a book, a game, for 1 dollar ? I would buy, as many as I can read, need, or maybe more. Now I have to copy, the games, and rent books. There is already so much info on the net, that you can not digest. A search is a waste of time. More than you can " digest" is chaos. The well sorted, cheap info, is a gold mine.

György
What would you suggest? It's an interesting idea, but frankly I think that the information available on the net, especially with the help of Google, is incredibly easy to sort and access. Often when someone posts a question I don't have an answer for, a quick Google search yields a lot of potentially useful information. That gives me the opprortunity to both help someone else and learn something myself. There are a lot of forums and boards where newbies get harsh reactions if they ask a common question without searching first; I think the Cove, by not flaming newbies asking FAQs, provides an opportunity for interaction that a lot of people find appealing. We certainly have our disagreements here, but they almost never involve new visitors, unless the new visitor is a troll or some other deliberately obnoxious species, which is rare. And when experienced people disagree, it gives others an opportunity to learn something about the vagaries of the subject in question.

Hi JSW05 !
1)First question related to new users. I think I have misinterpreting one of the answers, in direction that, somebody would like to create an elite club, for old members, not accessible for new users. In my opinion, better not to allow new questions for users, before they do they homework, than to exclude them. Nothing more, or less I wanted to tell. Evaluate my proposal from this point of view. However, we can't deny that some of the old users, after a while loose their interest, and patience, answering the same questions. The site is not anymore so exciting for them.
2) I will give you an example. I bought for the company, Rosato's Injection molding Handbook, for 500$. It is too expensive for me, thus I would like to have it at home. But for an electronic copy of it, where is not included, only the copyright rights, is not available, for purchase, for let say 100$.
What I know, from my friends, I'm involved, having a son 8 year old, is that there are sites where from you can download for let say 2-4$, the games. It's piracy, and they are always a step ahead. But the editors lose those 2-4 dollars, and is a huge amount of many. You don't have anything else to do just send an SMS, which will charge you 2-4$, and you are allowed to download the product. It is a safe method, for paying as well. I did not use the service, I got the games from my friends, and I'm shame for that. But I would pay that many, and not ask for a favor, if it would be legal, or available. Just my thoughts. I don't know if it's correct. Nobody wants to work for free, but most of the people don't expect as well to get something for free, just for an available price. (for him).
3) And not to talk about shipping cost. I sent to my friend, to NJ, a gift for Christmas, and paid 65$, shipping cost. In context that, many good publications from USA, not available in Europe. I can't speak fluently, German, French, etc.

Kind regards
György