The consultant has a great deal of influence on a quality system. Many companies spend a great deal of money using consultants for the sole purpose of helping them get ISO9001 certification. But how can a company have confidence that the consultant himself is competent. A lot may be riding on his abilities.

To my knowledge, there is no accreditation scheme for quality system consultants like there is for registrars. Should there be?

Many consultants are themselves not ISO9001 certified or even subject to external audits. Should they be?

For other professionals who advise like doctors, lawyers, teachers, architects etc. there is some form of registration/certification to evidence competence. The company looks on the consultant as an expert and invariably heeds his advice on conformity/certification matters. But is he really an expert and is the company getting good advice?

It would be interesting, were it possible, to analyze NCRs companies get from registrar auditors and ask the question "howcome the consultant or internal audit didn't spot that". Were the auditors nitpicking or was the consultant at fault.

What you think?

See my answer to your other post on a similar topic at http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=8785

The essence is not so much on whether the consultant is competent, but on the system that rewards "passing" a registration audit more than the delivery of good products and services.

On more than one occasion in the past few years, I've heard of customers who arbitrarily "fire" suppliers who fail a registration audit after having bought satisfactory goods from those same suppliers for years before the "policy change" to require registration to a Standard.

Firing the supplier may be "defensible" on the part of the customer, but it sure seems skewed toward the ridiculous in my view.

Should they be registered? If their clients require it, yes. Otherwise, it's a choice like anything else. And there is little-to-no correlation between ISO certification and product quality, so I doubt it would add much value, especially when offset by the increase in consulting fees that would occur because of the additional costs.

Any sort of certification/accreditation/licensing does little more than establish a baseline at which or above which the particular profession should operate. Each individual/organization then pursues the level of excellence (or debauchery) that fits to their personal values and/or capabilities. Think of the airline crashes caused by licensed pilots, the medical errors made by licensed physicians, ...

Regulations are like speed limits, and each individual/organization will choose whether or not it is going to add value to the particular situation. It is up to customers to be sufficiently intelligent and informed so as to make wise choices in their purchases.

If the consultant is a supplier then the organization can require him/her to meet the rquirements of 9001.

If the consultant can effect customer satisfaction and quality then the same controls apply as with anything else (to include competency).

Also the RABQSA has a scheme for consultants.

Let me throw some gas onto the fire.....

One hires a consultant (allegedly) because the consultant knows what s/he is doing, known in the accreditation world as "competency."

So if the consultants should be required to become registered or even accredited, the first and most obvious questions are:

1. registration so they have a good QMS; or accreditation so they have to actually DEMONSTRATE they know what they are doing?

2. then, under which standard? If registration, then 9K should be appropriate, but if accreditation.....get's a bit trickier.

Hershal

Wes,

Agreed the ultimate aim is a good QMS, product confomity and customer satisfaction. The consultant is a human resource input and therefore a critical factor just like others.

I think Randy got it right in that the consultant is a supplier and should be subject to supplier evaluation controls. Just seems strange to me that companies would have criteria for product and service suppliers but the consultant is rarely subject to the controls he helped implement. I've yet to see the supplier evaluation/approval records for the consultant.

the post from dokes pointed out "if the client requires it". Very true but that only shifts the question elsewhere into customer focus and requirements. Do we think that a company seeking certification would want their adviser to be certified.

Let me throw some gas onto the fire.....

One hires a consultant (allegedly) because the consultant knows what s/he is doing, known in the accreditation world as "competency."

Hershal

The only definition for competency you'll find related to 9K is actually in 19011 and is applied for auditors.

3.14
competence
demonstrated personal attributes and demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills

The RABQSA is currently developing an a certification scheme for "Management Consultants" (heavy on the scheme :lol: ).

Of course the RABQSA 1st have to define what competence is themselves :lmao:

[QUOTE=Denis9001]Wes,
I think Randy got it right in that the consultant is a supplier and should be subject to supplier evaluation controls. Just seems strange to me that companies would have criteria for product and service suppliers but the consultant is rarely subject to the controls he helped implement. I've yet to see the supplier evaluation/approval records for the consultant.
QUOTE]

I know the company I used to work for qualified our consultants in the same manor as we did for suppliers we purchased products from. We had a formalized procedure we were required to follow for any supplier wheter it be service or product.

I have also made sure that when I do registration/surveillance audits that if they use a consultant, that they put them thru the same paces as the rest of the suppliers they use. For that matter I also make sure they followed the same process in qualifying the CB they decided to use.

Randy, You sound like a lawyer needing definitions in order to find a loophole to explain excuse something. The definition is also in ISO9000, again in relation to auditors. Perhaps they should have said terms in relation to people.

Surely we all know what competence means. How it is evidenced is a question maybe.

You know, you're right. I forgot ISO 9000:2000, 3.9.12. :o

I have also made sure that when I do registration/surveillance audits that if they use a consultant, that they put them thru the same paces as the rest of the suppliers they use. For that matter I also make sure they followed the same process in qualifying the CB they decided to use.


I don't know if 'supplier evaluation' is appropriate...or the requirements of 'human resources' for the consultant.

I'm not ready to contact a registrar to certify my 1 person company to ISO 9001. I am, however, always prepared to submit to a client's approval process. In general, when I show up, the client has no supplier approval process. After I help educate them on the options, and they set up their supplier approval process, I will follow it. My company is often the first "approved supplier". It helps prove out the process of supplier approval is working as written.

I work with the 'little guys' that typically choose to do ISO because a large customer of theirs says, "You need to be ISO registered." My goal is not to get them registered. I tell them that up front. My goal is to give them a QMS that will help them better meet the expectations of their customers. If they don't agree to that, I don't work with them. Registration is like the little sprinkles on the cake. The cake and the frosting are what make the system work! The sprinkles make it look pretty.

Why don't we start with the registrars themselves.

I don't know of any that practice what they preach.

Anybody know of a registrar that has been ISO 9001 registered?

Carl-

Why don't we start with the registrars themselves.

I don't know of any that practice what they preach.

Anybody know of a registrar that has been ISO 9001 registered?

Carl-


Wouldn't that create a conflict of interests? You can't be your own registrar, so you'd have to be registered by another registrar who is competing with you for business. Seems like that could get hairy.

Why don't we start with the registrars themselves.

I don't know of any that practice what they preach.

Anybody know of a registrar that has been ISO 9001 registered?

Carl-
Registrars are accredited by an accreditation body like RAB, in the US. They are audited just as they audit companys they register.

Wouldn't that create a conflict of interests? You can't be your own registrar, so you'd have to be registered by another registrar who is competing with you for business. Seems like that could get hairy.
Exactly. We had this discussion in the past See this post (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=22040&postcount=50) in this thread: Choosing a Registrar - What Should We Look For in a Registrar? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1809)
The idea of a Registrar paying for a competitor to scrutinize it's business processes is a non starter. However, the upcoming ISO/IEC 17021 might mandate the implementation of ISO 9001 by Registrars. The verification that the registrar has satisfied (or not) ISO 9001 would be performed by the Accreditation Body auditors when they perform their assessments.

Anybody know of a registrar that has been ISO 9001 registered?

Carl-

Yep, we are. Our registrar is KEMA.

Oops!!! :o Screwed up here and I explained below.

Yep, we are. Our registrar is KEMA.Please post a copy of the cert or link we can verify that claim.

Please excuse me Sid, I erred a bit. I got confused with our training side of the house. :o :mybad: :bonk:

Try www.worldpreferredregistry.com and look for ISO9001:2001 in Reston, VA or maybe this link

http://www.worldpreferred.com/pub/search/searchResults.asp?searchtype=advanced&firstcomp=1&comp_name=&searchmethod=&useing=all&city=Reston&State=VA&stateOther=&Country=USA&standard=ISO+9001%3A2000&resnum=25&search.x=28&search.y=10

Thank you kindly, Sir. The posted scope of certification is

Scope: The design and delivery of management systems training courses, publications and sale of ISO Standards.

which does not include the management system certification services.

Sorry - don't recognize the name.....Kema?

So the BSI 'training' group is ISO 9001 certified by KEMA? And KEMA is accredited by RAB? Just trying to line all the certs up.

Related to the previous postings...registrars are audited to the RAB/IRCA standards.' I do not see the reason we would expect them to be ISO 9001 as well.

Sorry - don't recognize the name.....Kema?

So the BSI 'training' group is ISO 9001 certified by KEMA? And KEMA is accredited by RAB? Just trying to line all the certs up.

Related to the previous postings...registrars are audited to the RAB/IRCA standards.' I do not see the reason we would expect them to be ISO 9001 as well.RAB is long gone. They are now ANAB. Instead of RAB/IRCA the right combination is ANAB/UKAS.

Oops...so Kema is accredited by who?

According to http://www.krqusa.com/about.htm KEMA is accredited by RvA, ANAB and SCC.

That's why I said oops please excuse me I got confused. The registration side isn't in the scope.

Registrars seek accreditation under Guide 62, now being replaced by ISO/IEC 17021.

Hershal

Why don't we start with the registrars themselves.

I don't know of any that practice what they preach.

Anybody know of a registrar that has been ISO 9001 registered?

Carl-

Going back to the consultant discussion, our firm (6 people now; has been
both bigger and smaller) is registered to 9001:2000. One of our customers
asked us what our plans were for registration back in 1994, when we were
teaching them about ISO 9001:1994 and QS9000. We decided that if we
were going to teach the stuff we had better do it. (One of our other
resource companies-- a training materials provider-- encourages us, and
all franchisees - to be "products of the product". )

I would say that we had significant benefit in the beginning, for 2 reasons:

1. Client credibility - it showed that we could at least get 1 company registered!

2. Client empathy - after being the management rep, I had much greater
ability to look a client in the eye and "share their pain". You've all heard
the stories about the shoemaker's barefoot children. We've been there!

This situation leads to interesting discussions when a nonconformity is
found in surveillance audits. Our lead auditor has asked me more than
once to write the N/C myself!

However, if I were back as a solo practioner, I'm not sure I'd spend the
dough myself. There is a big fixed cost chunk for the registration overhead
that's bearable with 6 people, much tougher for 1.

Regards.

Brad Pritts
Results Systems Corp
An ISO 9001 registered company!

Our consultancy company is ISO 9001 certified since 1993 (1987 standard no less!).

We believed in practicing what we preached.

We don't use our certification logo though which is a shame, mainly because we try to work with any certification body and give our clients the choice - we try not to show preference for any particular certifier.

hard not to sometimes

Our consultancy company is ISO 9001 certified since 1993 (1987 standard no less!).We believed in practicing what we preached.

We don't use our certification logo though which is a shame, mainly because we try to work with any certification body and give our clients the choice - we try not to show preference for any particular certifier.

hard not to sometimesGood for you, Mike. I see in your website that you list 6 different locations in Australia, plus operations in Japan. During your surveillance audits, do the registrar auditors go to different locations, or they limit their audit basically to interviews and evaluation of records at the main location? Does your ISO 9001 certificate cover all locations?

Thanks for your interest Sydney.

Our Head Office in Adelaide is certified.

JLB Japan is a partnership that uses our training material, methods and so on. Fairly sure they are certified. We have people who do specialised courses such as corporate social responsibility who go over there to deliver the course.

Apart from Adelaide where most of us are (14) we have employees in the other states of Australia usually working from home, sometimes from a shared office.

The auditors only audit Adelaide but they see records from the interstate staff.

We ensure that interstate staff use our methods through internal audit.

We have been with our current auditor for ten years.

Because we don't push the "we are certifed" I rarely get asked. I suspect its the same for interstaters. If it became an issue with a particular client we could directly coordinate the work from Adelaide.

I have a few clients who work this way, large head office and individual staff dotted about the country.

We just tell the assessors that their office is at the end of a very long corridor, they're out at the moment but we can show you their files.

I wouldn't have it any other way. As stated here many times, registration does not necessarily correlate to high quality. I think this case is different. Registering a company doesn't prove that you are good at making product; it proves that you are good at registering. All other things being equal, I'll take the registered consultant because I want someone good at registering. Cobblers' children have no shoes, and plumbers' toilets don't flush and all that; I want a consultant who has demonstrated competency in Quality Management System registration by registering his own company. I also want someone who feels my pain.

Here's the scope of our consultant (during the registration project) and the company that staffs our Internal Audit program:

"Business process design and development. Procedures documentation and process mapping. Guidance and implementation support for systems. Internal audit and supplier assessment services. Consulting and training services for ISO9000:1994, ISO9000:2000, ISO/TS 16949, QS-9000, QS-TE 9000, AS 9100, TL9000, ISO14000 and ISO17025. Executive managment and workforce training servcies, "on-site" or "off-site" for subjects sucha s root-cause analysis, corrective measures, and preventive action. Software Capability Maturity Model (CMM) assessments and evaluations"

This company has been registered to ISO9001 by BSI since May of 1997.

Results International (plug, plug). (http://www.resultsinternational.net/)

I can see a consultant for 9K getting registered to 9K.

Even though the argument can be made about accreditation, the obvious questions are: (1) which standard? and (2) who will accredit them?

If accredited under ISO/IEC 17021 then an IAF recognized body will have to accredit them. However, if accredited under ISO/IEC 17020 then there are fewer selections, and if international recognition is required for the consultant then the consultant will consult the APLAC site for accrediting bodies. There are only six that are part of that MRA for 17020 right now.

Accreditation is a better assurance of what you get since the technical competence (or proficiency if you prefer that term) is examined also.....not just documentation.

The debate rages on I suppose.....

Hershal

Has anybody considered ISO 10019 : 2005
(I presume this was formerly called ISO/TS 21095)

Here is the ISO abstract :
quote:
ISO 10019:2005 provides guidance for the selection of quality management system consultants and the use of their services.

It is intended to assist organizations when selecting a quality management system consultant. It gives guidance on the process for evaluating the competence of a quality management system consultant and provides confidence that the organization's needs and expectations for the consultant's services will be met.
unquote.

Sounds good, but I cannot give any comments as I do not have a copy (yet)

Best regards,

Antoine