I am quite relieved to read this thread on Service Providers and ISO 9001 (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10889) especially "Think of the service you provide as your "product" by Steven Wright

My university is going for ISO 9001 : 2000 certification.

The scope is "Higher Education Service - Teaching and Learning". I told the management that our product can be the diplomas and degrees programmes that we offer.

There are some in the management who beleieve that the graduates are the products.

Any comments a.s.a.p please

Begum (Ms)
Malaysia

There are some in the management who beleieve that the graduates are the products.

I would consider students/graduates to be the customers. By the way, Steven Wright is a semi-famous social commentator who said:

"There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."

My (Badgerman's) advice was:

Think of the service you provide as your "product".

I am by no means as clever as Steven Wright. :D

I would consider students/graduates to be the customers.

I would agree, but there are others, as well, especially for publicly funded education.

First, the taxpayers. They expect the university to produce the people who will provide the intellectual horsepower to drive their economy.

Second, businesses. Exisiting concerns are likely already taxpayers, but prospective businesses are not. Having a well educated work force is an attractive attribute for an area being considered for a new facility.

Third, unfortunately, government. They control the purse strings. A college president ignores politics at their own, and their school's, peril.

There are some in the management who beleieve that the graduates are the products.
Any comments a.s.a.p please
Begum (Ms)
MalaysiaYou should get yourself a copy of the ISO IWA2 Document
International Workshop Agreement 2 — Quality Management Systems — Guidelines for the application of ISO 9001:2000 on education
In there, they provide some useful hints, such as


3.1 customer [ISO 9000:2000]organization (3.3.2) or person that receives a product (3.4.2)

EXAMPLE for IWA 2 clauses: A customer can be a consumer, in education or training, generally a learner, a client or purchaser, in education or training, generally a person or body funding the learner who may also be the learner, an end-user, in education or training, generally the person or organization that benefits from the learning achieved by the learner..

3.4 educational product

product concerned with education
NOTE : An educational product generally involves the provision of a service that includes the intellectual software of information and some form of computer software or paper based hardware assisting the transfer of information and retention for continuing reference.

I am quite relieved to read this thread especially
"Think of the service you provide as your "product". by Steven Wright

My university is going for ISO 9001 : 2000 certification.
The scope is "Higher Education Service - Teaching and Learning". I told the management that our product can be the diplomas and degrees programmes that we offer.

There are some in the management who beleieve that the graduates are the products.

Any comments a.s.a.p please

Begum (Ms)
Malaysia

I have helped two schools and a unversity faculty.

It was tempting at first to think of the students as being the raw materials that you process into the final product (graduates) that you then sell to the community, business etc.

A lot of the standard (1994 version) made sense that way.

We decided after much debate to make the students our customers but also to consider our other stakeholders (family, business, community, government) as part of customer satisfaction.

Dear All


I am still with the documentation for my university. Can anyone share with me how the procedure should be written for Control of non-conforming products?

What are examples of non-conforming products for a university?

Begum (Ms) :o
Malaysia

Customer complaints including stakeholder issues, internal stuff-ups, Universities do use external contractors for goods and services, they may also outsource work, hire facilties and so on.

You need a recording system for capturing information relating to a stuff-up. You need four things as a minimum:-

date of problem
description of problem
the action you took in resolving the problem
completion (date)

Everybody can raise a nonconformance but the line manager should be the one who determines the action to be taken.

Some of the stuff-ups I have seen include

course brochures incorrectly printed
timetable errors
faulty AV Equipment
rooms double booked
outside work not delivered on time
poor housekeeping
contaminated food in cafeteria
badly worded exam papers
inconsistent grading by examiners

Where there is a physical item that is faulty the procedure needs to include use of a reject tag or similar.

The procedure should include the need to train all staff in nonconformance and complaint handling, also review of nc by top management.

Can anyone help me with this please?

Can Clause 7.2.2 REVIEW OF REQUIREMENT RELATED TO PRODUCT ( our product being service of delivering diploma and degree programmes)be an exclusion for a university?

My university is actually a Branch Campus. Most statutory dan regulatory requirements are defined and reviewed by the Main Campus

I really need an urgent reply.

Begum Ibrahim (Ms)
Malaysia

NOTE: The above posts were split from thread ISO 9001 and Various Service Provider Industries (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10889) because it is educational industry focused.

Also see: ISO 9000 for Education Institutions (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=677)Can anyone help me with this please?

Can Clause 7.2.2 REVIEW OF REQUIREMENT RELATED TO PRODUCT ( our product being service of delivering diploma and degree programmes)be an exclusion for a university?

My university is actually a Branch Campus. Most statutory dan regulatory requirements are defined and reviewed by the Main Campus7.2.1 requires 'defined Requirements' so 7.2.2 shouldn't be an issue, and there is no way I can see that 7.2.1 could be excluded. If requirements (7.2.1) are defined at the main campus, can you cite the procedure(s) / requirements at the main campus that are being passed down to your campus?

NOTE: The above posts were split from thread ISO 9001 and Various Service Provider Industries (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10889) because it is educational industry focused.

Also see: ISO 9000 for Education Institutions (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=677)7.2.1 requires 'defined Requirements' so 7.2.2 shouldn't be an issue, and there is no way I can see that 7.2.1 could be excluded. If requirements (7.2.1) are defined at the main campus, can you cite the procedure(s) / requirements at the main campus that are being passed down to your campus?

Let me see if I understand you.
Are you saying if I can "cite the procedure(s) / requirements at the main campus that are being passed down to my campus?", I can treat 7.2.2 as an exclusion?

Main campus decides on everything that should go into the curriculum e.g what goes into a Bachelor's degree programme; we just deliver it.

Begum IBrahim (Ms)
Malaysia

Let me see if I understand you.
Are you saying if I can "cite the procedure(s) / requirements at the main campus that are being passed down to my campus?", I can treat 7.2.2 as an exclusion?No - Not at all - It would NOT be an exclusion. I'm saying if they have defined 7.2.1 for you, what's the fuss about? Do they design the courses and such and pass them down to you? Do THEY review the requirements (7.2.2)?

Or - Are you saying that your campus wants to register to ISO 9001 but your main campus does not?

No - Not at all - It would NOT be an exclusion. I'm saying if they have defined 7.2.1 for you, what's the fuss about? Do they design the courses and such and pass them down to you?

Do THEY review the requirements (7.2.2)?

Or - Are you saying that your campus wants to register to ISO 9001 but your main campus does not?

Yes Main campus designs the courses and pass them to us. We deliver them en bloc.
Main campus already certified.
Now my branch is going for it.

however main campus defined
products as
students
teaching materials and
exams

My branch has defined product as in IWA 2: 2003 service of delivering programs.

Any comments from others in educational services???

Well, you have me. I would think you would be the same as the main campus.

Well, you have me. I would think you would be the same as the main campus.

sigh
Now I am totally confused.
You mean our scope, products, customer have to be ditto and exclusions the main campus ?


My campus is going for seperate registration and certification. ISO 9001: 2001 going for quality management systeme right? So cant we just document what we do at branch level only?

They don't have to be per se, but usually the 'main' level sets a framework / parameters under which satellite facilities operate. I'm surprised you're not going for registration on the same certificate. You will have to be sure you can readily identify the interactions and requirements passed down to your campus by the 'main' campus.

Since the 'main campus' designs courses and passes them down to you, how do you plan to address design? As an exclusion, I assume?

Another question - Why are you wanting to be on your own registration certificate?

They don't have to be per se, but usually the 'main' level sets a framework / parameters under which satellite facilities operate. I'm surprised you're not going for registration on the same certificate. You will have to be sure you can readily identify the interactions and requirements passed down to your campus by the 'main' campus.

Since the 'main campus' designs courses and passes them down to you, how do you plan to address design? As an exclusion, I assume?

Another question - Why are you wanting to be on your own registration certificate?

Yes design is a clear cut exclusion for us.

We were directed to go for separate certiciation; there are about 17 branches spread all over the country and each has its complete management and adminstrative system.

Our campus has decided to follow IWA 2 :2003 closely. So we are just going for certification of the "teaching and learning and its related support processes" part. All branches are going for separate certification by Dec 2005

Is this ok in your professional opinion?

I appreciate all advice and pointers.

Thanks

Begum Ibrahim (Ms)
Malaysia

If you define products as students: how do you define customer?

Look at this falacy from the definitions in 9000:2005:

Product: result of a process
Do you claim that students are a result of a process in your organization? What about parents!!! They will also claim the same.

Customer: Who receives the product.
So in your case, students - if they are customers, they receive the product (the student in your case).....

Teaching materials and Exams are anything but products.

Please check IWA 2:2003 and you will find the definitions. Here are a few:

--------------------
3 Terms and definitions in the education sector
In addition to the terms and definitions given in ISO 9000:2005 and the following apply

3.1 customer [ISO 9000:2005]: organization or person that receives a product.
EXAMPLE: A customer can be a consumer, in education or training, generally a learner, a client or purchaser, in education or training, generally a person or body funding the learner who may also be the learner, an end-user, in education or training, generally the person or organization that benefits from the learning achieved by the learner.
3.2 interested party [ISO 9000:2005]: person or group having an interest in the performance or success of an organization
EXAMPLE : An interested party can be a Customer (3.1), parents’ association, other related educational organization (3.5) or society
NOTE: A group can comprise an organization, a part thereof, or more than one organization.
3.3 educational process: process resulting in educational product (3.4)
NOTE: educational process covers different kinds of learning activity such as training, adult education, university, secondary and primary education.
3.4 educational product: product concerned with education
NOTE : An educational product generally involves the provision of a service that includes the intellectual software of information and some form of computer software or paper based hardware assisting the transfer of information and retention for continuing reference.
3.5 educational organization: organization that provides educational product (3.4)
3.6 education provider: person who delivers educational product (3.4) to learners
NOTE: The education provider is referred to by customary titles which vary on national and educational hierarchical grounds including for example, teacher, trainer, lecturer or professor
-----------------------------------------------
Product and design aspects as stated in IWA 2:
=================================================
7.1 Planning of product realization in the education sector
The organization should plan the necessary resources for all processes.
In educational organizations, some processes for the product realization are:
a) teaching-learning activities,
b) designing and developing curricula,
c) formulation or establishment of research areas or projects,
d) training or other activities,
e) hiring staff,
f) acquiring materials and other resources,
g) admitting of candidates-students.
h) Controlling design and development changes in curricula, course calendars, timetables and pre requisites.
i) Securing accreditation of programs, professional degrees, and post-graduate studies
j) Providing library, audio-visual equipment, computers, and other services.
k) Providing security, safety and civil protection services.
l) Allocating classrooms, laboratories, workshops, auditorium, classroom for ceremonies, multi-use room and other similar spaces.
m) Maintaining facilities

7.1.1 Introduction
The major instructional processes that should be controlled may include needs assessment, instructional design, development, and delivery, and outcome measurement.

The major support processes described in ISO 9001 should also be controlled. For institutions selecting ISO 9001 control methods developed by instructors or a control committee may be established. The control method should be part of the management review to assure that instructional specifications are met and that the control methods are consistent with accepted quality practices. Changes in the control method of these major processes should be documented and the instruction should be evaluated after any change has taken place.

Observations should be made to verify that control methods are effective. Ineffective control methods should be modified.

7.2 Processes related to interested parties
For the most part, education institutions provide a service that is intangible, not storable, and consumed during delivery. Education institutions provide the opportunity for students to study existing knowledge and to practice its application. These institutions also have administrative support systems that help to ensure quality instruction.

Generic independent interested parties requirements may include (but not restricted to):
a) Safe, clean, facilities with someone in charge;
b) Two-way communication procedures between individuals and the instructional organization should be responsive;
c) All the organizations’ personnel treat interested parties with respect;
d) Appropriate activities conducted by qualified personnel.

7.2.1 Determination of product-related requirements in the educational institution
The education requirements are expressed as behaviour needed to meet academic professional and societies expectations

7.3.1 Design and development planning in the educational institution
In designing and developing the curriculum plan, the institution should consider entrance for the next grade to be the exit level of the present grade or competence level.

Top management should consider the design and development of education for the benefits of students and other interested parties.

Design control activities should be appropriate to the purpose and duration of the education.

Procedures should ensure that appropriate instruction materials match the instruction requirements.

Calibrated equipment may be needed for some instructional purposes.

Since needs assessment include student achievement and organization effectiveness these assessments should include potential or actual performance requirements to determine:
o how instruction can help students to become competent;
o how new requirements can be met;
o specific measures of instructional effectiveness; and
o if skills to be taught match curricular requirements.

These assessments should provide information that can be used in the instruction review process. Where experimental validation of instruction is not permitted, a peer review process could be adopted.

A needs analysis report should provide input to the instructional design process, describe the results of the needs assessment and state the goals for design.

Typically a report should:
o State why training was chosen as the intervention to improve performance;
o State any differences between required and acquired performance gaps, which the instruction was designed to meet;
o State how the gaps are to be met in performance terms and state the rationale;
o Identify the target student population;
o Identify preventive action;
o Specify any changes in instruction activities; and
o State that all relevant safety and legislative regulations are observed even when unstated in a contract, instruction specification, or curriculum.
===========================

Hope the cloud of product from engineering/manufacturing will not confuse users in Education or other services sector.

Thank you.

If you define products as students: how do you define customer?

Product: result of a process

Please check IWA 2:2003 and you will find the definitions. Here are a few:
3.1 customer [ISO 9000:2005]: organization or person that receives a product.
3.5 educational organization: organization that provides educational product (3.4)
3.6 education provider: person who delivers educational product (3.4) to learners

Hope the cloud of product from engineering/manufacturing will not confuse users in Education or other services sector.

Thank you.

I agree that the obvious starting point in all of this should be to make sure that we all know what the words mean, but I am afraid that can be the kiss of death. The definition of "product" which you quote is accurate, but the term is thereafter used (in ISO9001 and in 3.5 and 3.6 above) to describe only the product delivered to the end-user or bill-payer, and all concept of internal customers is forgotten about.

3.5 and 3.6 are ludicrous. An organization that provides educational product is not a "provider", but a person who delivers educational product is(!). And I thought that I had a reasonable command of English...

Your comment about "the cloud of product from engineering/manufacturing" is so true - forget about a process being a "set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs", and then trying to make things and people fit into one or other category. It is pointless (and counter-productive) in service or administrative situations.

PS Is the main campus not your "customer"? If you had one system and one certificate for the entire organisation, then you would need to decide who to call "customers", but your local system describes what you do, and that is to provide a service to the main campus.

Can any one post an example of QMS process map in an educational institution with the sequence and interaction these processes?
Thanks in advance.

I would agree, but there are others, as well, especially for publicly funded education.

First, the taxpayers. They expect the university to produce the people who will provide the intellectual horsepower to drive their economy.

Second, businesses. Exisiting concerns are likely already taxpayers, but prospective businesses are not. Having a well educated work force is an attractive attribute for an area being considered for a new facility.

Third, unfortunately, government. They control the purse strings. A college president ignores politics at their own, and their school's, peril.

I totally agree with the above mentioned and would like to add one more "client" or "stakeholder" whose requirements, in my opinion, must be taken into account in educational services: The parents/legal tutors of the students (when they are not legally adults).

/S.