Well I thought I was over the nervousness of being audited by our registrar,,,, I was wrong.:mg:

Brief history: Our company of 750 people, successfully went from QS to TS 2years ago.
Late last year we "added" another division, they will be going through a TS registration audit in mid-September. Today I received an e-mail from my registrar that this will be a witness audit. Now I am nervous again. Can anyone provide me with their experiences of a witness audit vs. non-witness?

I did do a search on this, couldn't find anything.

:thanks:

Can anyone provide me with their experiences of a witness audit vs. non-witness?

Last year, we had a witness audit during our ISO14001 surveillance audit. That experience should be comparable. Essentially, the registrar's auditors are being audited - not your system (although of course that audit is going on at the same time). If you have confidence in the people you are dealing with and your system, you have nothing to worry about.

Our registrar's auditors followed the same auditing practises that they always use and didn't try to show-off by identifying excessive numbers of non-conformances. A witness auditor is experienced in auditing and can spot poor auditing practises. The auditee's reactions and comments also give a good picture of interpersonal interactions and past experiences during 3rd party audits.

The witness auditor we had actually was more forthcoming when commenting about things she had seen during her stint as 3rd party auditor than our regular auditors, who try to avoid any consulting.

I made sure that key management people were aware that a witness audit was planned and then gave the go-ahead. It turned out to be an interesting experience to see the mechanisms that are supposed to verify that the registrars and their auditors are following the rules that govern their activities.

B.G. Wiehle
EMR

Well I thought I was over the nervousness of being audited by our registrar,,,, I was wrong.:mg:

Brief history: Our company of 750 people, successfully went from QS to TS 2years ago.
Late last year we "added" another division, they will be going through a TS registration audit in mid-September. Today I received an e-mail from my registrar that this will be a witness audit. Now I am nervous again. Can anyone provide me with their experiences of a witness audit vs. non-witness?

I did do a search on this, couldn't find anything.

:thanks:

What happens during a witness audit is the RAB ANAB, will be sending auditors to oberve the registrar auditors that are auditing your system. The ANAB auditors will not ask you any questions during the audit. They are there to assess the ability/knowlwdge of the registrars auditors. I have had a witness audit performed on me and it was a very non-invasive process. The only thing that will make you even notice they are there is possibly the extra lunch you will have to provide.

If you are that worried/nervous you could always call your registrar and request that the witness audit does nottake part at your company.

Here's a couple of threads on the subject. They probably didn't turn up in the search, but I remembered specific words in the threads to search by:

IAOB Oversight during our TS 16949 Upgrade Audit - Should we reschedule? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10810)

Registrar being audited during our recertification - Can we we refuse? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10549)

What happens during a witness audit is the RAB ANAB, will be sending auditors to oberve the registrar auditors that are auditing your system. The ANAB auditors will not ask you any questions during the audit. They are there to assess the ability/knowlwdge of the registrars auditors. I have had a witness audit performed on me and it was a very non-invasive process. The only thing that will make you even notice they are there is possibly the extra lunch you will have to provide.
If you are that worried/nervous you could always call your registrar and request that the witness audit does nottake part at your company.Firstly, since this is a TS16949 audit, ANAB has nothing to do with this. The Registrar will be witnessed by representatives from the IAOB, the American branch of IATF. Secondly, you can NOT deny your audit as a witness audit anymore. Be it for ANAB or IAOB.
Concerning an IAOB witness audit, you can expect your auditors to "go by the book". Normally it is a "stiff" audit, because the witnessed audit team has to make sure that they are following ALL of the processes very carefully.
But don't worry. As long as you have the system in place, the audit will demonstrate that.

Well I thought I was over the nervousness of being audited by our registrar,,,, I was wrong.:mg:

Brief history: Our company of 750 people, successfully went from QS to TS 2years ago.
Late last year we "added" another division, they will be going through a TS registration audit in mid-September. Today I received an e-mail from my registrar that this will be a witness audit. Now I am nervous again. Can anyone provide me with their experiences of a witness audit vs. non-witness?

I did do a search on this, couldn't find anything.

:thanks:


Don't sweat it.....

I often go to client facilities during accreditation assessments, and they are always nervous of course.....the accreditation assessor should point out right away that s/he is there to watch the REGISTRAR, not your organization.....then you only have the nervousness from the usual audit.

Hershal

Firstly, since this is a TS16949 audit, ANAB has nothing to do with this. The Registrar will be witnessed by representatives from the IAOB, the American branch of IATF. Secondly, you can NOT deny your audit as a witness audit anymore. Be it for ANAB or IAOB.
Concerning an IAOB witness audit, you can expect your auditors to "go by the book". Normally it is a "stiff" audit, because the witnessed audit team has to make sure that they are following ALL of the processes very carefully.
But don't worry. As long as you have the system in place, the audit will demonstrate that.


Opps, yes you are right, I see that this is in regards to TS not ISO. I still wouldn't worry all that much, as has already been said, they are there to watch the auditors not your company.

We've had 2 witness audits in the past 12 months (just lucky I guesss) , and during the first one the witness auditor was so laid back that I was worried he would fall asleep. :lol:

During the second audit it seemed like our auditor wanted to 'show-off' and as a result I had to do a bit more arguing than usual - I was a bit uncomfortable at that point having my reactions :argue: 'witnessed' - I wasn't as keen on the second audit, but it wasn't because of the witness auditor.

good luck, stay calm, it will be fine.

Barbt

Get the specifics. As Sidney said, these may be auditors from the IAOB and you cannot refuse (it's in the terms of the registration requirements you signed) but expect the audit to be "by the book". However, it could also be an auditor from the registrar witnessing another person from their own company. I've experienced this and I detected no change in attitude or style whether the lead auditor was being witnessed or not.

We've had 2 witness audits in the past 12 months (just lucky I guesss) , and during the first one the witness auditor was so laid back that I was worried he would fall asleep. :lol:

During the second audit it seemed like our auditor wanted to 'show-off' and as a result I had to do a bit more arguing than usual - I was a bit uncomfortable at that point having my reactions :argue: 'witnessed' - I wasn't as keen on the second audit, but it wasn't because of the witness auditor.

good luck, stay calm, it will be fine.

Barbt
My experience has been that when an auditor is witnessed by the CB he/she works for, they act the same way as during a regular audit. When the auditor is witnessed by the accreditation body (nameless) the auditor acts like a real dick because that is how they are treated by the Accreditation body auditors.

I have heard that the accreditation auditors' unwritten goal is the to screw over the auditor as much as possible.

Scatalogical language aside, Tarheels4, those are pretty vague accusations against witness auditors. That's kind of like saying to someone, "I hear you still beat your mate!"

Rumors like that belong on the Urban Legends site, not on a site dedicated to advancing the cause of Quality.

Auditors are not supposed to consider "anecdotal evidence," especially when no identities accompany the accusations. Perhaps the only thing worse than a false accusation is an anonymous false accusation.

Scatalogical language aside, Tarheels4, those are pretty vague accusations against witness auditors. That's kind of like saying to someone, "I hear you still beat your mate!"

Rumors like that belong on the Urban Legends site, not on a site dedicated to advancing the cause of Quality.

Auditors are not supposed to consider "anecdotal evidence," especially when no identities accompany the accusations. Perhaps the only thing worse than a false accusation is an anonymous false accusation.

Wes we both have a right to our own opinion. Since your opinion is all that matters, why don't you ship mine off to some urban ledgends thread.

I have heard that the accreditation auditors' unwritten goal is the to screw over the auditor as much as possible.One question. Why?

One question. Why?

Because they can? :D

Because they can? :DRalph, that's the punch line to a different joke!

Why all the excess testosterone?

The witness auditors I've had tag along with me during an audit or watch me deliver an accredited course have never presented a problem. I don't change one bit, what they see is what they get. If they don't like it they can write it up, pack sand, hold their breath until their face turns blue and their butt falls off.

It never comes to that. I've never had anything other that good professionals acting in a professional manner. I welcome the feedback because I need to stay on my toes. I'm being audited (actually my delivery of a Lead Auditor course) by the RABQSA in a couple of weeks on the worst possible day, which is always day 1...horrribly boring and dry. Will I act different? Waddya think? ;)

I have been at witness audits and my excperience has been good with the exception being that the registrar being witnessed was definitely 'harder' than in previous and subsequent audits. Then again, audits I have done where I was being 'witnessed' I think I've been a bit more 'picky' than I normally am. I think it goes with the situation to some degree.

their face turns blue and their butt falls off.

It never comes to that.
Thank goodness! :lol:

Al - I love that joke! :lol:

My experience has been that when an auditor is witnessed by the CB he/she works for, they act the same way as during a regular audit. When the auditor is witnessed by the accreditation body (nameless) the auditor acts like a real dick because that is how they are treated by the Accreditation body auditors.

I have heard that the accreditation auditors' unwritten goal is the to screw over the auditor as much as possible.

Tarheels4,

I understand you may not quite appreciate Wes' perspective.....but since I happen to work for an accrediting body, you'll forgive me if I take exception to your comments.

I admit that at times you may be correct, but most accreditation assessors don't intentionally become unreasonable.....at least not intentionally. At the AB that I work for, such assessors will stand out, especially on their way out.

Regards,

Hershal

An Accreditation Auditing Practics Group (http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/138402/138403/4298140/customview.html?func=ll&objId=4298140&objAction=browse&sort=name) has been created and one of the documents already developed is the one dealing of witnessing CRB auditors. The document is here. (http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/4299258/AAPG-WitnessingAudits.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=4299258)Another one deals with AUDITING THE COMPETENCE OF QUALITY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CERTIFICATION/REGISTRATION BODY AUDITORS AND AUDIT TEAMS (http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/4300106/AAPG-CRBAuditorCompetence.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=4300106)

Well I thought I was over the nervousness of being audited by our registrar,,,, I was wrong.:mg:

Brief history: Our company of 750 people, successfully went from QS to TS 2years ago.
Late last year we "added" another division, they will be going through a TS registration audit in mid-September. Today I received an e-mail from my registrar that this will be a witness audit. Now I am nervous again. Can anyone provide me with their experiences of a witness audit vs. non-witness?

I did do a search on this, couldn't find anything.

:thanks:

I am a 3rd party auditor who has been "witnessed" about 6 times over the last 8 years. The witness auditor is not interested in how well your organization does in your audit. His interest is in how your auditor performs during your audit, whetehr you do well, or not. The only difference is, your auditor will be very careful and "on his toes." Other than that, there should be no impact. I have always got along fine with my witness auditos, though there is little or no discussion about the audit itself.