:confused: Is Auditing by department wise, clause wise, process wise , which one is

best practice?

which one isbest practice?That depends on what you are looking for, but I'd choose process wise over department wise any day: A process often spans over several departments, and by looking at just part of it you are likley to miss the perpetual problem area in interfaces between departments.

Clause wise? Yes, if you're doing a gap analysis for instance...

/Claes

:confused: Is Auditing by department wise, clause wise, process wise , which one is

best practice?

Unless you have departments that have very different processes then process wise is the way to go.

Try doing an audit of a product you make from dock to stock. From the time the order comes in until it gets to the customer. That should cover everything in the standard.

:confused: Is Auditing by department wise, clause wise, process wise , which one is

best practice?

To what Standard?

Hershal

TS 16949

Sathis

:)

We used to do auditing “Process wise”, say for example the Process of HR (Human Resource) is to be seen not only in HRD but in different manufacturing / Non manufacturing departments also. No process is seen in isolation. Hence we used to see Process Interlinking map as required by ISO standard during auditing.

There are times when a process approach is the best. There are other times when a department approach may be best, still other times an elemental approach may be best. Each type of audit yields different data, and looks at things differently than the others. It is perhaps best to vary the approaches to get the best look at the QMS.

Each type of audit yields different data, and looks at things differently than the others.
Exactly - base your choice on what information you are hoping to gather and for what purpose.

Do what works for you and what is most effective for you. Don't get all wrapped around an axle with this.

I have been auditing ISO-14001 systems function-wise and I could cover all processes, procedures and clauses relevant to the system. The auditee representing the function provides all the necessary information related to the department and its processes/procedures (evidence). The Auditor takes care of covering all the relevant clauses while auditing the auditee. This has been working well for the last 9 years, both system-wise and function-wise. As indicated in one of my earlier postings, I used to send the audit questions well in advance (say about a week before the audit) to the auditee. I find that this helps to improve the quality of the outcome of the audit. (Don't mistake me; I believe that no one can cook-up results / records of performance for the last one year in a matter of one week. Sending the audit questions in advance prepares the auditee well for the audit, including admission of gaps and non-conformance - this realization invariably results in improvement actions on the part of the auditee).

With best regards,

Ramakrishnan

I have been an internal auditor for years, but now I'm doing outside audits for an auditing firm from New York. I have the Report Checklist by clause that is the checklist from the Internal Audit Course Notebook which is the one I like to use, but I've seen some on the web that actually put in italics underneath the question, what type of media the auditor is supposed to look for; what type of question you ask; whom you ask....etc....
I am looking for a good checklist, preferably by clause in order to complete 13 Vendor/supplier audits by Jan 1st 2006.
Can anyone send me some samples at my email address?
mcgee6471@sbcglobal.net
Thanks a million!

I have been an internal auditor for years, but now I'm doing outside audits for an auditing firm from New York. I have the Report Checklist by clause that is the checklist from the Internal Audit Course Notebook which is the one I like to use, but I've seen some on the web that actually put in italics underneath the question, what type of media the auditor is supposed to look for; what type of question you ask; whom you ask....etc....
I am looking for a good checklist, preferably by clause in order to complete 13 Vendor/supplier audits by Jan 1st 2006.
Can anyone send me some samples at my email address?
mcgee6471@sbcglobal.net
Thanks a million!

If you are doing supplier audits, you may approach it any way you choose. If you are doing internal or external audits to ISO 9001, or TS-16949, both the RAB/ANAB and the IAOB require you to follow a process approach. These oversight agencies have instructed auditors to write nonconformities if this is not done. And they write nc's on us, if we don't enforce it.

PS: it is possible to develop a process based "checklist" to use as a guide. In fact, I recommend it to my consulting clients. But it is important to have a good understanding of the process approach, in order to develop it appropriately. Also, the turtle diagram, or applicable flowcharts sometimes are useful as well. But nothing takes the place of a good understanding of the process approach methodology.

Thanks so much for the info.
I have done Audits by process before, I just don't have a good sampling of a checklist to work from. I will have to go back and look at the process model in my books and from a few years back to develop a good one. I just hoping I could "borrow" one for the Audit I have in a few days to buy me time. I spoke with the Company with which I'm dealing with and they already have a checklist that they want me to use for thier supplier audits, they are sending them to me tomorrow. I'll have to look at them and see what they contain, and whether or not I think it will be enough. I might take my Clause checklist with me just in case their forms don't hold enough information.
Thanks so much for your help,
Camille

In regard to the internal audit system, my view would be that if the organization has estalbished an ISO9001 program meeting 4.1a, b and c, and the internal audit program is designed to audit the "planned arrangements" (per 8.2.2a, etc.), those audits would inherently be process-based not clause-based. If the process is designed around a department, one would naturally audit the department.

Thanks so much for the info.
I have done Audits by process before, I just don't have a good sampling of a checklist to work from. I will have to go back and look at the process model in my books and from a few years back to develop a good one. I just hoping I could "borrow" one for the Audit I have in a few days to buy me time. I spoke with the Company with which I'm dealing with and they already have a checklist that they want me to use for thier supplier audits, they are sending them to me tomorrow. I'll have to look at them and see what they contain, and whether or not I think it will be enough. I might take my Clause checklist with me just in case their forms don't hold enough information.
Thanks so much for your help,
Camille
Camille - I'm a bit concerned that you are headed into an audit without planning it out yourself. Many auditors get a poor result from not sitting down and preparing by putting a checklist together. It's like going to the store with someone else's shopping list - you might get a few things on the list that you like (in generic terms, 'soup', crackers' etc) but if you have specific needs ('Campbells Tomato soup') then a generic list is probably not going to work.:nope:

I'd encourage you to do the prep before the 'silver bullet' approach.:yes:

Andy