I recently fell into my current position, quality manager for a medium sized job shop in california. This shop has been iso9001 "compliant", but never certified, meaning that one of our customers audited our system a yr back, and gave us their approval. However, the manual that was written was mostly for show. Now we are being required to be AS9100 certified within the next year, and this task is on my shoulders. I've been studying like crazy, trying to educate myself in exactly what the standards are, and I'm hoping that someone out there might take pity on me, and point me in the right direction. I've checked out quite a few sites and books, they all seem to say the same thing, but never say enough.

I would very much like to read through a well written quality manual from a certified shop similar to ours. And as long as I'm wishing, I'd like a Ferrari and a couple of supermodels out by the pool.........

Welcome to The Cove, Stevedawg! :bigwave:

Your request hints of a fairly common misunderstanding about quality manuals and ISO registration. AS9100 is said to be closely related to ISO.

Some people have this idea that the quality manual tells the organization what it should be doing to be registered to the standard. And for some organizations it does just that. It gives details that are specific enough to serve as trap doors in an audit.

What often happens then is that the organization doesn't follow its manual; there are sometimes people who feel uncomfortable with it, say it is confining or tells them their business. For these organizations, registering is very difficult or they find it hard to "recertify" unless their registrar is too easy on them (to put it nicely).

A quality manual is actually only supposed to sketch the Quality Management System (QMS). It outlines the system of processes an organization does that align with the principles and adhere to the "shalls" in the standard.

The quality manual is the skeleton. It references processes and their ownership. See this example: *** DEAD LINK REMOVED ***

Procedures describe the processes in more detail; they reference necessary work instructions that contain specific details or refer to specifications that provide the details (like repair manuals) because they might change too frequently for you to want to record these specifics on your own records.

I don't know how deeply your customer looked into what you did when you were acknowledged compliant, but I suspect you are doing well enough for them to have been satisfied this long so it might just be a matter of describing what you do that supports your compliance to the standard.

I hope this helps!

STEVEDAWG, I would suggest you get out to a Lead Auditor course soon.
One that is recognized by an accrediting agency. You will learn fast and get to meet others in the same or similar situation. There are a lot of training companies avaialble. I went to Excel Partnerships and it was a good one. Not pushing them, just my experience.

Many thanks for both of your replies. Jennifers advise and link clarified quite a few questions. Ralphsusler's advise on getting into a training course was an answer to another question I didnt voice, that is "Are these courses value added?" . I will be following the advise of both you kind souls.

:thanx:

STEVEDAWG, I would suggest you get out to a Lead Auditor course soon.
One that is recognized by an accrediting agency. You will learn fast and get to meet others in the same or similar situation. There are a lot of training companies avaialble. I went to Excel Partnerships and it was a good one. Not pushing them, just my experience.This is excellent advice, which I didn't think of though I should have.

I attended a week-long EMS Lead Auditor training by Applied Quality Systems (AQS Management Systems Inc.) and was very pleased with it.

The course didn't just teach auditing, it did a good introduction to the standard, practices, etc. If you are new to quality management and must get registered, I would press for such a course, at least for starters.

now to convince the boss to bust out the company checkbook....

Hi Steve, if you want, I would be happy to stop by and talk to you and your boss about AS9100, some do's and dont's, ways forward, answer questions, etc.... I have been involved in the AAQG Group since 2001 and I participate in some of the groups developing/revising the family of AQMS Standards. Cypress is just around the corner from me. Actually, early October, there will be a Boeing IDS supplier workshop in Huntington Beach. I will be participating as a panelist. Maybe we can get you in...

Sidney,

What a great offer. I'd very much appreciate a visit. I'd also like to get more info on the Boeing workshop.

Hi all, well I guess I fall into almost the same category as Steve has. I also am a novice Quality Manager, I just became the manager 2 weeks ago and have the task of implementing an AS9100 QMS. I have been under the ISO umbrella since the 1990's. I've never implemented a system but have been in on the ground floor of the implementation. Any assistance I can receive from all of you great Quality minds here would be very greatly appreciated.
The first thing I've done is look into an ALL IN ONE AS9100 software program that has all the procedures and forms. What does everybody think of that approach? :thanx:

Most of the companies I work with that migrate to an AS9100 QMS are FAA Repair Stations or companies that produce parts under some type of FAA approval system like PMA. In cases like these much of the documentation and processes are already in place within the organization. If you are a repair station or better yet operating under one of the FAA manufacturing standards you already have a leg up on the task of creating a QMS. The supporting documentation is derived from procedures and work instructions that support the Repair Station Manual (CFR 145) or the PMA (CFR 21.303).

For me the difficult task is not the documentation - it is getting management on board in a process based environment. Here - is what I see often . . . Primes flow down the AS9100 requirement. Management reacts by appointing quality to the task, not realizing the implications of change within the culture of the company as a whole.

Hi all, well I guess I fall into almost the same category as Steve has. I also am a novice Quality Manager, I just became the manager 2 weeks ago and have the task of implementing an AS9100 QMS. I have been under the ISO umbrella since the 1990's. I've never implemented a system but have been in on the ground floor of the implementation. Any assistance I can receive from all of you great Quality minds here would be very greatly appreciated.
The first thing I've done is look into an ALL IN ONE AS9100 software program that has all the procedures and forms. What does everybody think of that approach? :thanx:

I have to say that all in one packages are pretty much not very effective as they have no idea what your system is and are written around the standard and not your company. When I was writing our system documentation for our recent AS9100 implementation, we ended up using 3 different packages and picking from each what was best to fit within our system.

Thx Blue, but I don't have the luxury of existing documentation. This is a bare bones operation with liternally no documented systems. I have to establish the system from the ground up.
I figured I might as well implement the AS9100 system right from the get go, that's why I'm looking into a software program to help me get started with procedures.

I have to say that all in one packages are pretty much not very effective as they have no idea what your system is and are written around the standard and not your company. When I was writing our system documentation for our recent AS9100 implementation, we ended up using 3 different packages and picking from each what was best to fit within our system.
I would have to agree with M Caruso. Boxed systems are garbage.

Hoeyster, if you have been under the umbrella of ISO then you should have no problem. AS9100 build on the ISO 9001:2000 QMS. Get yourself a copy of the standard and you will see that it is ISO with additional requirements. If you are already ISO certified, then you only need to build upon your current system to include the additional requirements.

One additional thing that I would like to share is what I call the freebie audit. When it comes time to get AS9100 certified, take the option of the preassessment. This is basically a 3 day freebie for your company. The auditor will look things over, tell you where you need to make improvements and then leave. You will now have some time before the actual audit to ensure your system is solid. Too many companies say "We don't need a preassessment (cost), we are ready." Those companies rarely get their certification on the first try.

Putting together procedures and Quality Manual for ISO9001-2000 doesn't worry me, it's accounting for the AS9100 requirements. I guess I should say getting the verbiage accurate. I figured from the ALL IN ONE package I could get a good idea how to say things.

Please! Please! Do not allow yourself to get caught in a trap of using someone else's verbiage and blather in YOUR documents.

I can't tell you how many times I have to suppress the urge to vomit when I read a phrase in someone's canned manual or procedure, "the organization shall . . ."

First of all, "organizations" don't do anything. People do things. If you are part of the organization, you are part of the people. Therefore, the phrase might better be "we plan to do the following ________, which we will document with a record once we have performed the activity."

Above all, write so the people in your organization will understand what you write and recognize that they do perform the things you write about.

Here's a sample of language from a generic AS9100 manual (cribbed off the internet from a sample offered for sale at about $1,000.00):
1.0 SCOPE
1.1 General
This quality manual specifies requirements for the quality management system for (Your Company.) The Company will:
a) demonstrate the ability to consistently provide products that meet Customer and applicable regulatory requirements, and
b) aim to enhance Customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system, including processes for continual improvement of the system and the assurance of conformity to Customer and applicable regulatory requirements.
Compare that to something like
1.0 SCOPE
1.1 General
We wrote this manual to outline how we intend to manage our Quality System.
a) We plan to study both customer and regulatory requirements and do everything we can to provide products that meet those requirements on a consistent basis.
b) We plan to use review and experimentation to continually improve our systems and processes to satisfy our customers we are effective in assuring conformity to their requirements and any applicable regulations.

My version may not be deathless prose, but I think it reads like something a real person might say if you asked him what he planned to do.

We wrote this manual to outline how we intend to manage our Quality System.
a) We plan to study both customer and regulatory requirements and do everything we can to provide products that meet those requirements on a consistent basis.
b) We plan to use review and experimentation to continually improve our systems and processes to satisfy our customers we are effective in assuring conformity to their requirements and any applicable regulations.

My version may not be deathless prose, but I think it reads like something a real person might say if you asked him what he planned to do.
I agree that it's always best to write your own documentation, rather than using canned documents. Canned documents are like canned cat food. They're fine until the can is opened, but then it stinks up the place. The quality of the documentation depends on having someone around who knows how to write, though. A lot of small companies don't. In those cases I recommend getting outside help--not to set the requirements, but to put them in serviceable English (or whatever your native language happens to be).
BTW, Wes's example above (which I realize was hastily written as an example) would be better if written in the active voice, rather than the passive. It should tell what the company does, not what it will do, or intends to do.

See! Learn something new every day. For years, I've been laboring under the misconception the Quality Manual is the PLAN for what you intend to do and a record tells what you did, while the Procedures and Work Instructions describe how you intend to carry out the plan.

See! Learn something new every day. For years, I've been laboring under the misconception the Quality Manual is the PLAN for what you intend to do and a record tells what you did, while the Procedures and Work Instructions describe how you intend to carry out the plan.
The QM tells what the company does, not what it will do. If the QM is the plan, where did the QM come from? Procedures and work instructions tell what the process is (not what it will be) and how it is controlled and operated right now, not sometime in the future. Things change--remember that crazy little continuous improvement thing?

The QM tells what the company does, not what it will do. If the QM is the plan, where did the QM come from? Procedures and work instructions tell what the process is (not what it will be) and how it is controlled and operated right now, not sometime in the future. Things change--remember that crazy little continuous improvement thing?
No brawl sought, but which comes first? Procedure? or Process? Run a process, then write a procedure to fit? Maybe, if we are describing a belated attempt to document an undocumented process. Do we play a baseball game and then go back to write the rules and assign the positions?

All of the levels of documentation together make up the documentation for a quality system. No one level of documentation exists in a vacuum. I don't know that I would feel confident with an organization that didn't have a plan to deal with me as a new customer, since they can't say "We already deal with Wes Bucey in this way . . ."

No brawl sought, but which comes first? Procedure? or Process? Run a process, then write a procedure to fit? Maybe, if we are describing a belated attempt to document an undocumented process. Do we play a baseball game and then go back to write the rules and assign the positions?

All of the levels of documentation together make up the documentation for a quality system. No one level of documentation exists in a vacuum. I don't know that I would feel confident with an organization that didn't have a plan to deal with me as a new customer, since they can't say "We already deal with Wes Bucey in this way . . ."
No, I think it's an interesting discussion but not worth getting excited about--the meat is the thing, after all. :agree: I just think the active voice is inherently more positive and dynamic. BTW, has anyone come up with a plan for dealing with Wes Bucey?:D In addition to the smiley, I'll say it: I'm kidding.

No, I think it's an interesting discussion but not worth getting excited about--the meat is the thing, after all. :agree: I just think the active voice is inherently more positive and dynamic. BTW, has anyone come up with a plan for dealing with Wes Bucey?:D In addition to the smiley, I'll say it: I'm kidding.
Give me some credit! I did use first person pronouns instead of third person:D

Thx Blue, but I don't have the luxury of existing documentation. This is a bare bones operation with liternally no documented systems. I have to establish the system from the ground up.
I figured I might as well implement the AS9100 system right from the get go, that's why I'm looking into a software program to help me get started with procedures.


Hoeyster. I work with a registrar and deal specifically with AS9100. Because there is nothing I can do that is too deep from an "implementation" standpoint, I normally like to know where to get good information to make AS9100 easier.

One thing is to make sure you have the copy of the standard and the AS9101B checklist. The latter will help so you won't have to put together your own checklist. These links are below...

http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9100B

http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=STD&PROD_CD=AS9101B

Also, I came across a pretty handy little manual simplifies some of the explanations of getting AS. It is "An Audit of the System, Not of the People." Here is the link to that...

http://www.qualitypursuit.com/pg_as9100eng.asp

One other thing you can do is see if any of your aero customers audit you AGAINST the AS9100 standard (though call it something else). If that is the case, it will give you a good idea, from a gapping standpoint, where you stand.

Not sure if you have any of these, but this normally makes going for AS9100 a bit easier.

Thank you so much Aerospace Man. I just keep asking asking asking with nothing to offer at this time. Once we achieve certification I will have assistance to offer others in my situation. :thanx:

Just recently, we got our certification and about to go thru our first surveilance audit. I was able to get help from our local DCMA (govt) office. The lead auditor came out and gave a presentation about ISO to my steering comittee and management. Managament was the hardest to win over on all the requirements, but that was not hard because our customers required AS9100 by years begining. I took the standard and wrote our manual and procedures based upon how we did things and just made sure all of the AS9100 requirements were there at a high level. The details are in the work instructions. We passed the registration audit with only a few minor NCRs. But let me add, that was the most grueling week I've ever been through. Just "Say what you do and do what you say."

Congratulations, Highspeed. Well done! And welcome to the Cove:bigwave:

Sydney,

Don't you work for DnV? I am sure I have met you before.


Maybe talking with a Registrar would be beneficial for you and your boss (es) to find out is it really required (via Contract/PO) to receive AS9100 certification or being compliant to ISO9001:2000 is all that is required. Training is offered by ASQ, and I went to one of their training seminars, it was very informative.

ISO and AS are closely related. AS incorporates ISO and adds specific requirements required by the Aerospace sector.


Coury Ferguson
Program/Contracts Manager

Sydney,

Don't you work for DnV? Yes, I do. I am sure I have met you before. That is very possible. ASQ, AAQG, etc...meetings/conferences. Good to see you here.

Sydney,

We talked about using your Registrar for our ISO9001:2000 registration, when I working for Continental DataGraphics, located in Cypress, CA

Coury Ferguson
Program/Contracts Manager

I'm in a similar situation trying to learn about AS9100 and AS9006. I'm supposed to have our team certified in the next month. Yikes! I debated on whether to buy a canned document (my bosses preference) or create one from scratch (my preference). What I've decided to do is use a couple of these QM examples that I've found on the internet as a guideline. I'm creating my own from scratch since I know that I'd have to do some major customization on anything I purchased anyway. I found one that seemed good and you can buy it for about $100. Not too expensive, if you don't mind rewording 75% of it. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I have permission to post it without special consent so I better not. The website I got it from was http://www.the9000store.com/Free_Stuff.aspx.

I'm in a similar situation trying to learn about AS9100 and AS9006. I'm supposed to have our team certified in the next month. Yikes! I debated on whether to buy a canned document (my bosses preference) or create one from scratch (my preference). What I've decided to do is use a couple of these QM examples that I've found on the internet as a guideline. I'm creating my own from scratch since I know that I'd have to do some major customization on anything I purchased anyway. I found one that seemed good and you can buy it for about $100. Not too expensive, if you don't mind rewording 75% of it. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I have permission to post it without special consent so I better not. The website I got it from was http://www.the9000store.com/Free_Stuff.aspx.You were given how long to do this job? A month, or have you been working on it for awhile? :eek:

Yep, I have to have us certified by April (so a little more than a month from now). I've been working on this, part time, for the last month but it's been challenging. I've already expressed the risks involved, to my superiors, so I don't think there's any misconception about where I'm at and what type of comittment is needed to get this accomplished.

I've been part of a similar process at a previous company, non-aerospace. The standards were a lot more stringent but it was for producing a product rather than providing a service to a company (and helping them to produce a product). I'm worried that I'm over documenting our process and reducing the flexibility of the QMS. As a result, the smaller service teams that we have, may have problems keeping up with the QMS. My goal is to have a QMS that provides a firm guideline with options for deviations that might ease the pain on the smaller service teams.

Hi Sleepless,

Wow, you have your work cut out for you. I did an AS9100 in one month for a customer in California last year, I am in Dallas. It was very difficult. Here are a couple of things to watch out for before the certification processes; 1.Certificating agencies will want to do a preassessment of your documentation, which can be very helpful for you. That usually takes place about now if your target date is one month out. Check with the accreditation firm you will be using, I am sure they have already tried to push this to you by now. (If you don't have a certification agency in mind, they typically require a fairly long lead time for AS9100, my experience over the past year with several of these under my belt is at least 60 to 90 days advance notice after the contract is signed.) 2. Internal Audit, by a qualified auditor . . . using the AS9100 checklist etc. 3. Management Review (the internal audit is fed into this review that is one reason for the internal audit now). The only way this company got in under the wire was due to their foresight to lock in the accreditation agency before they ever called me. To say the least this experience was a nightmare. We passed through the process and they received accreditation and I flew home. You can anticipate the rest. They wanted certification at all costs in this time frame for a large trade show in Europe. But this particular company failed to really grasp the signifigance of the QMS. If a company is not processed based to begin with then turning something like this around in short order is tough.

Thanks for that info. I'll pass that along to my boss. The customer has already sent out their auditor to discuss what we have to do and I've been in contact with him since then. I like the idea of sending my docs to him, as a pre-test. We already have a pretty good process. I'm just using the checklist they provided, trying to match up the docs to the standard, fill in any missing ones, and layout a reproducible process for future efforts.

After reading your response, I think I should clarify with the customer on when they want to do the audit. It may be that they are only auditing us against the AS9100 to make sure we are capable and that they aren't really certified auditors (certified in the way that they can give us accreditation for AS9100)?