All,

I recently accepted a position with a company who has been ISO certified for a number of years.

One of the reasons I was hired was because they were struggling with meeting their customer requirments and have been suffering from chronic quality issues and complaints.

I very quickly learned that the organization believes their ISO system is excellent as their 3rd party auditor (same guy for the last 4 years!) never found anything wrong.

One of the very first things I did was perform a plant-wide internal audit. Based on 20 years of ISO experience I wrote up a report that included 40 findings - 15 of which are majors!

After submitting my report to mgt and repeatedly receiving no reponse I requested mtgs to discuss and was told they are not concerned about an upcoming surveillance audit (2 weeks away) and that's why they hired me - to fix these kinds of problems.

Wow! Now I believe that I am destined to spend a couple of days with an auditor as he/she rips us a new one (or at least rightfully should).

Any advice?

Although not my speciality, I would like to offer my opinion. You welcome to use or disregard as you see fit.

If the auditor has been the same person over the last 4 yrs, there is really no reason to believe that this person will see anything more or less than they usually see. (Unless of course you show them different, which I would definitely NOT do).
As a new person, you can always say, "being new, I didn't see that, what do you recommend?". Not a good idea to open a can of worms here.

If your primary function is to understand, support and develop the internal quality systems to help reduce customer defects and complaints .... I would recommend that your focus be there.

I find it unlikely that the auditor is really going to rip you a new one...

Worse case is, if it does happen, just follow the non-complient note response procedure and close each item one at a time.

Welcome to The Cove, Gregfish! :bigwave:

It sounds as though your management is so happy with the fact your registrar keeps coming back and saying "No problem-o!" that they have adopted a "What, me worry?" attitude to what you say is wrong.

It's a common misunderstanding that achieving and renewing ISO registration means a company is performing well. But the real indicator is happy customers, (which ISO is designed to help with but certainly doesn't guarantee) and since you say there are chronic problems then obviously there is work to be done.

But the management said you should fix the problems, which is another clue that they simply aren't engaged--"Quality is the Quality Department's business, not mine." Or, they may simply be implying that but really mean it is your prerogative to manage, facilitate or push-tug the necessary changes to fix problems. "You're the expert, go ahead."

If you can show some of your findings are related to those customer complaints, you can hit them hardest. Focus first on the processes involved rather than people, seek to error-proof if you can, or approach the needs in other appropriate ways.

If your findings are not related to the complaints and/or acknowledged problems, you may find yourself in arguments since the registrar has said "No problem-o!" and yet you found all these things. If you bring in a new registrar--one who will agree with your findings, you won't be helping your position any. Your management might resent you for apparently inviting trouble.

Two weeks sounds like an emergency but it's not. I would pick the low hanging fruit first, the findings that are related to the customer complaints and problems. If you open CARs on these findings and start working on them, the registrar will duly note that the system is functioning and that's fine.

I'd keep this same registrar for now, until you can get some carefully prioritized changes made. Hopefully you will gain your management's confidence and can very gradually become more aggressive. That will probably require lots of patience and discipline on your part.

I hope this helps!

Thanks for your thoughts asutherland and Jennifer.

One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new.

I like the "low hanging fruit" approach and opening CARs for all the issues identified.

All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures. Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell.

Thanks again!

Several years ago I interviewed for a position under circumstances very much like the ones you describe. Management was looking for a messiah to come in and wave a magic wand and make all of the problems go away. As soon as I was told that the incumbent quality manager wasn't getting the job done, and that customers weren't happy, I asked the interviewer (a VP of operations) if he thought that product quality was the responsibility of the quality manager. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said, "Of course it is--the maintenance manager is responsible for maintenance, the purchasing manager is responsible for purchasing, and the quality manager is responsible for quality." I thanked him for his time, politely suggested that our philosophies were different, and got the heck out.

Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell.

I hope you're not just reenacting the Myth of Sisyphus (http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/entries/sisyphus.html) and that you can help your bosses to see the light. Don't hesitate to come here for help and moral support as you go along.

I thanked him for his time, politely suggested that our philosophies were different, and got the heck out.Jim, you are my hero for the day.http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/appl.gif It takes guts to do that. But what you wrote is sooooo true. If the big kahunas think that quality is the responsibility of the quality manager, you know that they simply don't get it. In the medium and long term, I am sure you saved yourself a lot of grief.

I also have a related case. A few years ago I did a sales call with a company here in So Cal. They are (scary) a manufacturer of commercial aviation parts and were looking to be certified to ISO 9001. I got there and the contact person (QC Manager) takes me to his "office" and then, before I can even ask a few questions, he asks me to follow a technician to the back of the shop, where a computer was located. The technician proceeds to show me some "SPC charts", as instructed by the QC Manager. I keep quiet. After 5 minutes or so of glancing at the SPC charts on the screen, the tech takes me back to the QC Mgr.'s office. As I get there, he immediately asks me:
- So, what do you think of our "quality system"?
- Well, I saw some charts, but the quality system is much more encompassing than that....
- What do you mean?
- Well, what about the design, sales, purchasing, etc. processes?
Deer and the headlight describes well his expression at that moment...
To make a not so long story shorter, I was there a few more minutes before I told him that the registrar I work for would not be a good fit for his organization....

One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new...All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures. Looks like I have an uphill battle and only time and lots of efforts will tell...

This is a good point, I'm glad you made it.

A new auditor certainly could upset your managers' little apple cart! This story could get mightly interesting as it plays out.

Since you say all of your findings are related to the customer satisfaction problems, then you can be assertive. Opening CARs is your prerogative, and your management said to you, "Fix it" and so there you go. It sounds like they will not pursue the problems without such a process to facilitate them.

It will be interesting to hear what the new auditor says, which might after all be very little since they are not supposed to consult; but they can voice levels of approval of what you've done if you ask in specific terms.

Your management's culture sounds narrow minded but if you show the dollar value of approaching improvement before customers defect or even before problems have a chance to grow to any size, you may win them over in time.

We are here for you.

I told him that the registrar I work for would not be a good fit for his organization....
A good and unusual move on your part. I'm sure he was able to find a registrar who would be duly impressed:eek:.
In a similar vein, I was visiting a supplier a few years ago and the QM very proudly showed me their real-time SPC system. There were monitors at each machine displaying charts with red, green and yellow bands (they were obviously precontrol charts). I asked each of the operators I talked to what the colored bands meant, and I got a different answer from each one, and I also got a different (wrong) answer separately from the QM. Sure looked purty, though.:bonk:

Welcome to the Cove, Greg :bigwave: I see that good advice has been offered and taken here already :agree1: One point I missed in my intro is the fact that the registrar has acknowledged that the normal auditor has been at this company too long and is sending someone new.Even so, I doubt that there will be a massacre. If you open CAR:s and start working on the findings from that plant-wide internal audit the auditor should note that as something positive.All of my findings very directly relate to the current customer disatisfaction but my perception is that my management truly does not understand the value of a system and the importance of current documented procedures.A good auditor should pick that up as well.

I suppose you're in for a struggle, but somehow I don't think the audit should be your greatest worry. It may very well turn out in your favour. Please keep us updated, and above all: Good luck :agree:

/Claes

I sure hope your auditor doesn't work for us (or Sid's folks either) because this sounds like a come in, have lunch, write the report and bail for 6 months thing to me.

Randy, I hope so too, but both of our organizations have thousands of customers and hundreds of auditors. It could happen.

But Mr. Fish, besides all the good advice available here, is pretty experienced himself, based on http://www.geocities.com/gregfish0410/Quality_Help.html where he claims: If your Quality System needs help - I can turn it around! I can help you provide the training, mentoring, guidance, leadership and direction that your team needs at a fraction of the cost of consultants.
In the original post he claims 20 years of ISO experience. The ISO 9000 family of documents were originally released in 1987.

ISO9001 came out of BS5750, which was released in 1979, so one could perhaps legitimately claim experience of over 20 years of this type of quality system.

I have also experienced the situation where joining a new company a magic wand approach was expected, with little or no involvement from other managers or departments.

I face the same dilemma described in the first post in my current job. The quality system has been idling for over 2 years, I am faced with having to re-construct the whole thing whilst still maintaining ISO9001 certification.

I also see the same thing at most, if not all suppliers that I have visited.

I am trying the build the quality system around what is already being done. It appears the quality system was documented around what was thought should be done, and as a seperate entity to the daily operations of the business - the classic example is the annual management review meeting. I am trying to show that the current business operations meet the ISO9001 requirements where I honestly feel that to be the case. With management review the company naturally constantly reviews it performance via a monthly 'top management' meeting which uses hard performance data as its input, and produces action minutes as its output.

I am trying the build the quality system around what is already being done. It appears the quality system was documented around what was thought should be done, and as a seperate entity to the daily operations of the business - the classic example is the annual management review meeting. I am trying to show that the current business operations meet the ISO9001 requirements where I honestly feel that to be the case. With management review the company naturally constantly reviews it performance via a monthly 'top management' meeting which uses hard performance data as its input, and produces action minutes as its output. This is of course very common among generations of business managers who emerged from their various schooling understanding productivity and organizational performance as formulas. Management by objective is just a progression of the thinking, and many will defend the concept as an organized, fact-based method of enacting change and achieving results. Creating a QMS and trying to adapt behavior to it is, in my view, another result from this perspective on performance.

When we teach, starting with adolescents and working right through graduate programs, the meaning and value of system thinking (which will likely seem more abstract and puzzling, which invites disapproval) I expect our business performance to improve on the whole.

Oh yeah, any minute now... :rolleyes:

Some of my views [most of which are pertinent to the discussion]:

I love going to a company in trouble that needs help in getting on the right track for two reasons:

The money is normally better for the "expert from afar"
I like a task that lets me think and be creative in finding solutions
My methodology in dealing with a fouled-up organization is to

first get EVERYONE (top management down to the part-time janitor) aware the organization is fouled up
second, get EVERYONE mad or disgusted at the current situation (this can be easy or hard, depending on resident apathy)
next, use a Socratic method to elicit ideas for CHANGE from EVERYONE (even though the plan may already formulated in my own mind) because the players will be more eager to play if they feel they have a hand in setting up the game.
agree with EVERYONE on the plan to identify things which need improvement and in what priority
identify and prioritize "improvement initiatives"
involve EVERYONE in the plan and implementation of each improvement
celebrate each achievement and move on to the next initiative
involve everyone in a plan to evaluate each improvement to see it actually works and whether there is opportunity for economic benefit from further improvement.
invite outsiders (customers or 3rd party auditors) in to view results
celebrate the achievement and plan to maintain or improve on a continual basis.
Mind you, I am not H. Ross Perot saying, "It's just this easy!" because it isn't easy. It can be exhausting work for the advisor or consultant who takes on such a task. At the end of everything, he (or she) has earned every penny of the big fee.

I agree a big stumbling block can be top management who wants to avoid rolling up its sleeves to get involved. Getting that "involvement" is the advisor/consultant's toughest task. Without that involvement, everything else is wasted effort. I don't know of anyone among my wide circle of professional acquaintances who has a sure-fire formula to elicit that involvement from reluctant top management. We all fly by the seat of our pants in that and, frankly, sometimes we crash into a mountain.

I am encouraged by the number of posts to this thread so quickly!

Sidney - you are quite correct. I hold certifications as a CQT, CQA, CQE and CQMgr. Additionally I have served as a Baldrige Examiner 2002, 2003 & 2005 and yes I have been doing this since BS5750.

Typically situations I face I have had a little more time to influence top management before a 3rd party audit, they were more receptive to hearing that their QMS was a major contributor to the customer dissatisfaction they are experiencing and my extensive experience was not taken so lightly.

I expect that the only reasonable plan is to "cover" as much as I can and allow the registrar to find a lot. For them to find little would ultimately lesson my credibility and make my short term future even more difficult.

Wes - I like your approach!

Thanks all.

Lots of great replies so far.

Wes is right on :applause:

Taking his approach, you have to remember that you were hired because they knew they were in trouble. That tells me that, if they want to give you the responsibility for the QMS, then you probably have the authority as well.

I have worked for companies where the CEO wanted someone to take the QMS and make it happen.

Take charge then.

Plus using the involvement of the entire organization like Wes suggests, you have everyone working for you... one way or another.

If you find that Management squeaks because you did something that someone doesn't agree with, be ready to show where you saved them money or the potential for loss as a consequence. That always results in a "Carry On" command.

All,

I recently accepted a position with a company who has been ISO certified for a number of years.

One of the reasons I was hired was because they were struggling with meeting their customer requirments and have been suffering from chronic quality issues and complaints.

I very quickly learned that the organization believes their ISO system is excellent as their 3rd party auditor (same guy for the last 4 years!) never found anything wrong.

One of the very first things I did was perform a plant-wide internal audit. Based on 20 years of ISO experience I wrote up a report that included 40 findings - 15 of which are majors!

After submitting my report to mgt and repeatedly receiving no reponse I requested mtgs to discuss and was told they are not concerned about an upcoming surveillance audit (2 weeks away) and that's why they hired me - to fix these kinds of problems.

Wow! Now I believe that I am destined to spend a couple of days with an auditor as he/she rips us a new one (or at least rightfully should).

Any advice?

You obvisouly care about quality and improvement. It sounds like your management only cares about a certificate, and your auditor apparently does not care about anything. Do you really want to work for this kind of company for any length of time?

You obvisouly care about quality and improvement. It sounds like your management only cares about a certificate, and your auditor apparently does not care about anything. Do you really want to work for this kind of company for any length of time?

hjilling,

I hear you! On one side I really like a challenge and on the other I hate beating my head against the wall!

Another way to look at it is - no matter what I do - the company will be better for it. :D

I think, as I grow older, I realize many of us (in Quality or any other aspect of commercial, nonprofit, or government work) are constantly forced to make compromises in our lives to maintain a living for ourselves and family.

It is all too easy, from the safe haven of a good job and comfortable living to say to someone who complains:
"Hey! Deep six that job and go get a good one!"

I've counseled many, many, good, competent folks who have their backs against the wall and can't land that "perfect job" with a "perfect employer."

They face a difficult choice: Compromise or starve!

I see our task here in the Cove as trying to help folks make the best of a bad or "dicey" situation without incurring personal disaster along the way. In my lifetime, I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better - you always have more options, up to and including being able to tell an employer or client, "Take this job and shove it!"

So, in the spirit of helping friends who are "temporarily" in a bad situation, I hope we can address our remarks to viable methods to improve a bad situation, rather than counsel, "Run away!"

I am pragmatist enough to realize that not everyone can "do as I do" just as I realize I will probably never play par golf again. But those who can't "do as I do" will hopefully profit from some of my comments to avoid "embarrassing" themselves, just as I assiduously read the golf tips in my magazines and watch the lessons on the Golf Channel so that I don't embarrass myself and my playing companions when I'm on the course.

I sure don't expect to hit a golf shot between two trees 18 inches apart to hit the green any more - I usually just chip back out onto the fairway, even if it puts me farther away from the hole - a little tip I picked up from a Jack Nicklaus article. After all, I don't have to beat Tiger Woods or Vijay Singh!

So, my advice to folks in trouble -
You may not be able to follow ALL the advice you receive here in the Cove, but with a little bit of thought, you can adapt some of it to make your life a little easier.

It is all too easy, from the safe haven of a good job and comfortable living to say to someone who complains:
"Hey! Deep six that job and go get a good one!"Yes. In my earlier post in this thread, I wrote about deciding not to pursue a job opportunity because of "philosophical" differences. What I didn't mention, but should have, is that at the time I wasn't unemployed, which contributed greatly to my sense of personal integrity :D and ability to be picky. The best time to search for a job is when you already have one, but if you work long enough you'll inevitably run into situations where the baby's need of new shoes trumps one's own desires for ideal situations.

I think, as I grow older, I realize many of us (in Quality or any other aspect of commercial, nonprofit, or government work) are constantly forced to make compromises in our lives to maintain a living for ourselves and family.

It is all too easy, from the safe haven of a good job and comfortable living to say to someone who complains:
"Hey! Deep six that job and go get a good one!"

I've counseled many, many, good, competent folks who have their backs against the wall and can't land that "perfect job" with a "perfect employer."

They face a difficult choice: Compromise or starve!

I see our task here in the Cove as trying to help folks make the best of a bad or "dicey" situation without incurring personal disaster along the way. In my lifetime, I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better - you always have more options, up to and including being able to tell an employer or client, "Take this job and shove it!"

So, in the spirit of helping friends who are "temporarily" in a bad situation, I hope we can address our remarks to viable methods to improve a bad situation, rather than counsel, "Run away!"

I am pragmatist enough to realize that not everyone can "do as I do" just as I realize I will probably never play par golf again. But those who can't "do as I do" will hopefully profit from some of my comments to avoid "embarrassing" themselves, just as I assiduously read the golf tips in my magazines and watch the lessons on the Golf Channel so that I don't embarrass myself and my playing companions when I'm on the course.

I sure don't expect to hit a golf shot between two trees 18 inches apart to hit the green any more - I usually just chip back out onto the fairway, even if it puts me farther away from the hole - a little tip I picked up from a Jack Nicklaus article. After all, I don't have to beat Tiger Woods or Vijay Singh!

So, my advice to folks in trouble -
You may not be able to follow ALL the advice you receive here in the Cove, but with a little bit of thought, you can adapt some of it to make your life a little easier.


Wes, I enjoyed your comments, but was particularly drawn to one part - " will probably never play par golf again..." AGAIN?! Wow, I've never met anyone who has EVER played par golf! Actually, I enjoyed reading your posts last night. You obviously have a lot of wisdom and experience. I agree with your intent, and welcome being challenged when I am out of line.

All of us have been rich and poor at some time in life. I would never flippantly tell someone to shove their job. It's not that easy. However, when I was younger in this business, I was trying to save the world. I slowly realized I can't save those companies who are not willing to do what needs to be done. Part of the creative destruction and reconstruction/rebuilding process means some things will be destroyed. The free enterprise system works because better companies find their way, and poorer companies go under because of their actions and get recycled.

My comments were not intended as flippant, or callous. Quite the opposite. However, after 800 audits, and some grey hair, but no par golf games, I have concluded some wars are unwinnable.

Each of us has three options, and only three. We can change our companies, we can choose to live with circumstances as they are, or we have to seek a change in environment. If we feel the third choice will be necessary, we should seek a calm, orderly, beneficial transition. But, even if we don't want to make the choice, one of these three will eventually happen. In today's market, a managment team such as the poster described ahs all the hallmarks of a company that will work itself out of the equation. If we can't change it, then we have to plan the next steps. I haven't seen many cases where that kind of management changed. Usually, it only worked when the stakeholders remove the abcess, and replace it with healthy tissue.

Hopefully, this longer answer clarified my sincere concerns better than the brief answer last night. Now, about that par golf game...

:topic: Last week, I met a man in his late 80's who lives in the next town.

He is 6'3" or taller and looks to be in his early 60's. I learned he shoots BELOW his age consistently on some of the really tough courses in our area! The difference is he consistently shot BELOW PAR when he was in his thirties. He learned to play with wooden shafted brassies and mashie niblicks when my parents were still in high school.

His main concession in the last ten years is he rides a cart to maintain the pace of play, otherwise, he'd prefer to walk the course! (He's rich and hasn't carried his own bag in 60 years.)

In my mind, I know I won't play him for money unless I get strokes!

Update from the war front...

Several things going on here including:

Customer is tired of 3000 DPPM when they require less than 200 and demands action now. They have demanded it for over a year and have not received anything. I have analyzed historical DPPM and put together a cross-functional team to develop a plan to address all of the high PPM hits YTD. Held a "real" management review that resulted in a long list of action items necessary to address ISO system issues. Developed Hoshin plan for reducing PPM via addressing systems issues. Held a meeting with managers to develop a strategy for addressing system deficiencies that I identified in preparation for the above customer coming in to perform a systems audit. Additionally I have been working hard to address some of their 45 past due customer complaints. On yeah - I also visited two facilities of our main customer (85% of business" in the interest of understanding historical issues and developing relationships. All of this in only three weeks with the company!

Today - the company President came to me and asked what I was doing to address internal scrap and Operator training. I explained to him that "in my spare time" I was putting together a proposal for a quality improvement process and expected to have a system in place within a couple of weeks. Regarding operator training I explained to him that weaknesses in this area were highlighted in my plant-wide audit report which I asked him if he had the opportunity to review. He informed me that he receives 400 e-mails a day and of course he didn't review it as he is very busy man. He went on to inform me that I was not doing my job as I cannot expect that an e-mail (actually 3 in this case) would convey my concerns appropriately and I should have tracked him down (which I attempted to do) or print a copy and put it on his desk (which I did) or personally asked him to review my report.

We went on to "discuss" many of the current problems and plans I had for correcting everything. He actually commented that I hear you say that you are working on the systems but "our customer demands that we meet requirements now and we do not have time to put systems in place".

This had to be one of the most frustrating experiences in my life!

Input??

Update from the war front...

Several things going on here including:

Customer is tired of 3000 DPPM when they require less than 200 and demands action now. They have demanded it for over a year and have not received anything. I have analyzed historical DPPM and put together a cross-functional team to develop a plan to address all of the high PPM hits YTD. Held a "real" management review that resulted in a long list of action items necessary to address ISO system issues. Developed Hoshin plan for reducing PPM via addressing systems issues. Held a meeting with managers to develop a strategy for addressing system deficiencies that I identified in preparation for the above customer coming in to perform a systems audit. Additionally I have been working hard to address some of their 45 past due customer complaints. On yeah - I also visited two facilities of our main customer (85% of business" in the interest of understanding historical issues and developing relationships. All of this in only three weeks with the company!

Today - the company President came to me and asked what I was doing to address internal scrap and Operator training. I explained to him that "in my spare time" I was putting together a proposal for a quality improvement process and expected to have a system in place within a couple of weeks. Regarding operator training I explained to him that weaknesses in this area were highlighted in my plant-wide audit report which I asked him if he had the opportunity to review. He informed me that he receives 400 e-mails a day and of course he didn't review it as he is very busy man. He went on to inform me that I was not doing my job as I cannot expect that an e-mail (actually 3 in this case) would convey my concerns appropriately and I should have tracked him down (which I attempted to do) or print a copy and put it on his desk (which I did) or personally asked him to review my report.

We went on to "discuss" many of the current problems and plans I had for correcting everything. He actually commented that I hear you say that you are working on the systems but "our customer demands that we meet requirements now and we do not have time to put systems in place".

This had to be one of the most frustrating experiences in my life!

Input??
You have my deepest sympathy!
If you were close, I'd buy you a drink and let you cry on my shoulder - you are really getting the short end of the stick.

To the point:
Yep. I've dealt with scared and terrified top managers before. He has a right to be scared and terrified - 85% of his business is poised to flee and he doesn't have a clue how to stop it.

This is one of those things that is a lot easier for me to say than for someone else to do, but you have to be the calm anchor in the midst of the storm. You have to assure this boss that all is not lost, whether it ultimately does go down the tubes or not. (don't tell him the last part!)

It takes a lot of personal gravitas to pull this off. At my best, I only have about a 60% to 70% success ratio in keeping the terrified boss from going off half-cocked. Think of this like my lifeguard class told me to think about a drowning person - try to calm the victim, but don't let yourself be grabbed and incapacitated to the point both you and the victim drown. That's why we carried buoys or rings for swimming rescues and why we reach for them with poles or ropes from a boat.

The dialog might go something like this:

Assure the boss you understand the seriousness of the situation.
Say you are glad he is going to be personally involved to the extent he will grant you personal access to him whenever you feel the urgency demands it, but that you won't "nickel and dime" him unless it is absolutely imperative he know immediately (he hasn't actually said this, but you are free to assume he is desperate enough to agree)
Tell him he HAS to trust your judgment on this.
Point out that you have a methodical way of dealing with the situation and that you are performing a type of triage - deciding priorities and balancing them with realities of what can be accomplished in the shortest period of time. You are pleased to have his input to help decide priorities based on information you might not have available, yet.
Offer to schedule an uninterrupted block of time where you and he can discuss the situation calmly without the clamor of other claims on his time (before breakfast?)
Reaffirm his opinion the situation is as serious as a heart attack. Tell him he's right to be scared, but that neither he nor you can allow yourselves to panic. Assure him you know he is equal to the task and tell him you hope to demonstrate you, too, are equal to the task.
Tell him flatly you have a pool of expert friends you can call on if you run into any temporary blockage (us in the Cove)
Tell him others have faced similar crises and survived. You feel confident you and he will survive this crisis.
I'm sorry. I wish I could give you every possible scenario and a counter to help you prevail. I can't. If I were in place instead of you, I might only be marginally more able to deal with this panic-stricken boss, but you MUST deal with him successfully or you are lost before you begin.

Please keep us updated. We're pulling for you because what happens to one of us happens to ALL of us.

It sounds like you are enacting what JSW05 was concerned about: I hope you're not just reenacting the Myth of Sisyphus (http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/entries/sisyphus.html) and that you can help your bosses to see the light. I got the feeling that your boss is simply without a clue regarding systems. He may be a stuff-in, stuff-out kind of fellow, where making plans is a waste of time and prevention means keeping the flawed items out of the shipping cartons. In this type of mind, scrap is solvable through training or employee intervention because he has no idea how the different factors work together to create unwinnable situations. For him, the problems are certainly people-oriented because he doesn't understand how to troubleshoot a process, or what's more, to do the herding squirrels thing required to get all the players to contribute to improvement.

He may, or may not have seen your communiques. He may have seen them but not understood them. If he understood this stuff I have to suppose he would not have let the thing go this long without realizing he had a really big and urgent problem. Now he's in a state of emergency and trying to make it your emergency too. I agree with Wes, he sounds really scared but is not about to show it and he has no idea what should be done. I suspect he understands dealing with emergencies better than any type of planning or systemic development.

I sense he's a patriarchal guy who is more comfortable telling you that you aren't giving him what he wants than asking you what you just meant.

Can you give it to him in plainer, manager-speak english? Maybe something like this:

"We had meetings and reviewed the findings that I made in my assessment and the complaints that I found in the customer history. I visited two of our customers' facilities and reviewed their specific concerns. I also met with, and set in place a team of our most accomplished and strongest leadership and technical experts.

Together we will now pinpoint the three biggest contributors to those errors; we are forming a plan of action that will prioritize and attacks those problems. I expect there will be operator training needed to reduce these errors and my team will itemize the exact areas for needed training so we can see the fastest results.

We will certainly work to reduce the scrap, and we expect to do that in part by reducing the number of flaws we catch in house... but we must train our immediate focus on the end product flaws because their costs are ___% that of the scrap."

He actually commented that I hear you say that you are working on the systems but "our customer demands that we meet requirements now and we do not have time to put systems in place".Input??Greg, tell the guy that, without a system in place, every job runs the risk of turning into a crisis. So, every sale might bring more headaches and losses than profit. Maybe he will believe you if you tell him that other organizations have systems in place that PREVENT customer complaints, rather than react to them. Actually, being upfront with the customers letting them know that the organization is taking steps to remedy the situation, by implementing a system, normally pacify them for a while, letting the boss and you breathe and go back to work, but keep hammering what Wes mentioned in a previous post. It is imperative that he understands that the organization is seriously fouled. Without him TRULY believing that, he will want the band-aid fix every day.
May you find the patience and strength to keep at it.

It occurs to me to add that you must convince this boss that you and he are a "We" and not adversaries in this situation. You will do everything to support him and he must do all in his power to support you so together you can get past this crisis and put a system in place to prevent crises before they arise.

Actually, being upfront with the customers letting them know that the organization is taking steps to remedy the situation, by implementing a system, normally pacify them for a while, letting the boss and you breathe and go back to work,
Absolutely! This boss has to stand shoulder to shoulder with you as you face the 800 pound gorilla (the customer.) Everybody in the organization has to realize the seriousness of the situation and be on the same page when anyone from the customer comes calling.

I have a minor quibble with Jennifer's commentCan you give it to him in plainer, manager-speak english? Maybe something like this:

"We had meetings and reviewed the findings that I made in my assessment and the complaints that I found in the customer history. I visited two of our customers' facilities and reviewed their specific concerns. I also met with, and set in place a team of our most accomplished and strongest leadership and technical experts.

This is really no time to soft-pedal the story to this manager. Invite him to accompany you to visit the biggest and loudest griper at the customer - he's the guy you and the boss have to please to get breathing room to turn the situation around. Again, I emphasize you must convince this manager to work WITH you. You cannot do an adequate job in spite of his sniping - you have to convince him you are an ally, not an enemy. (You have to make him your ally by appealing to his sense of survival - that he needs the alliance to survive. You certainly will need the alliance to survive!)
:topic: As difficult as this situation must seem for you, I envy you the opportunity to be in the thick of the fray. Take notes on what happens and talk to me later about including the situation as a case study in the book I'm writing.
Wes Bucey offers service as Strategy Advisor - Seeking Case Studies for Book
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9117

I absolutely agree with Wes's advice to make it a "we" situation. Your boss is probably not a process or systems thinker and needs to understand that improving the way things are made requires organization and planning to involve various factors besides the operator training idea.

I do understand any discomfort with my suggestion. In this place I always run the risk of missing the target--after all, I am not in the room with you--so my observations and comments should always be taken into advisement.

In this place where I am surrounded by such great minds I often think my best contribution is to propose an angle, a way of thinking that perhaps isn't typically used in quality management.

It has occurred to me many times that we deal with situations and not necessarily people. I have no way of knowing this boss and I wouldn't dare to diagnose if I were there, but it is possible he has some physiological or psychological issue that makes him challenging to work with and a different kind of thinker than most of us.

In such a serious situation as yours you don't have much time, nor should you psychoanalyze, but please try to consider that your boss (all of our bosses) respond to the 3M (plus environment) concept just as processes do. One of those Ms is (wo)man. Since management approval is required for essential changes, your boss has by default become a part of the (improvement) process. While he'd probably prefer you wave your magic wand and immediately the widgets will be within specs, he must become a part of this too.

All,

Update is as follows:

The "major" customer came in 9/19 & 20 to do a systems audits and wrote up 32 areas that needed to be addressed. He didn't give a hoot about what has been changed over the last 2 months and focused on issues that he was aware of over the last 4 years. "Management" felt we did pretty good during the audit.

Registar did their surveillance on 9/28 and according to her "she was embarrassed about how they had let our system deteriorate". She focused on everything new and looked the other way regarding long past due internal audit findings and CARs for customer complaints and our very dismal customer satisfaction ratings.

She wrote up 3 minor findings that didn't address any of the above and went on her way.

What can you do???

All,

Update is as follows:

The "major" customer came in 9/19 & 20 to do a systems audits and wrote up 32 areas that needed to be addressed. He didn't give a hoot about what has been changed over the last 2 months and focused on issues that he was aware of over the last 4 years. "Management" felt we did pretty good during the audit.

Registar did their surveillance on 9/28 and according to her "she was embarrassed about how they had let our system deteriorate". She focused on everything new and looked the other way regarding long past due internal audit findings and CARs for customer complaints and our very dismal customer satisfaction ratings.

She wrote up 3 minor findings that didn't address any of the above and went on her way.

What can you do???
As Jennifer comments, this is an excellent time to work on the "people skills" between you and the bosses.

I think it's time to sit down with the bosses and review the situation vis a vis the two radically different audits.

As I see it, the 3rd party auditor focused on the "snapshot" of how your organization is functioning NOW. (Pretty good!)

The customer auditor rightly (in my opinion) wanted to see ALL past issues resolved with no loose ends. This is what will give him confidence you, indeed, have your act together, especially in light of their past issues with your organization.

What you and your bosses have to decide is whether there is sufficient value in jumping through these hoops to rehabilitate your organization's image in the view of your customer. Will this customer generate sufficient profit to justify the expense of time and money in correcting previous lapses? Odds are that it is imperative you do this since you have declared him the major customer. So sit down with your bosses and lay out a plan and timetable for fixing the 32 issues, then SHARE THIS PLAN AND TIMETABLE WITH THE CUSTOMER! Include some plateaus or mileposts when you will report interim progress on the fixes. Do everything you can to convince this customer the old lax ways are gone and you are running a new, tight ship. Then, FOLLOW THROUGH! DON'T BACKSLIDE!

As for the relatively clean bill of health from the third party auditor - use that to tout your products and services to prospective new customers.

Greg, tell the guy that, without a system in place, every job runs the risk of turning into a crisis. So, every sale might bring more headaches and losses than profit. Maybe he will believe you if you tell him that other organizations have systems in place that PREVENT customer complaints, rather than react to them. Actually, being upfront with the customers letting them know that the organization is taking steps to remedy the situation, by implementing a system, normally pacify them for a while, letting the boss and you breathe and go back to work, but keep hammering what Wes mentioned in a previous post. It is imperative that he understands that the organization is seriously fouled. Without him TRULY believing that, he will want the band-aid fix every day.
May you find the patience and strength to keep at it.

I agree. Be relatively upfront and direct with the customer. Rermember, they are trying to protect their interests. Find a way to help the customer do that.

The item I would add, is if the list is that long, make sure your action plan is prioritized, and in a way that takes the customer's concerns into consideration.

I am disappointed and disturbed by the registrar auditor only finding 3 minors. That would appear to be indefensible.

Update from the war front...

Several things going on here including:

Customer is tired of 3000 DPPM when they require less than 200 and demands action now. They have demanded it for over a year and have not received anything. I have analyzed historical DPPM and put together a cross-functional team to develop a plan to address all of the high PPM hits YTD. Held a "real" management review that resulted in a long list of action items necessary to address ISO system issues. Developed Hoshin plan for reducing PPM via addressing systems issues. Held a meeting with managers to develop a strategy for addressing system deficiencies that I identified in preparation for the above customer coming in to perform a systems audit. Additionally I have been working hard to address some of their 45 past due customer complaints. On yeah - I also visited two facilities of our main customer (85% of business" in the interest of understanding historical issues and developing relationships. All of this in only three weeks with the company!

Today - the company President came to me and asked what I was doing to address internal scrap and Operator training. I explained to him that "in my spare time" I was putting together a proposal for a quality improvement process and expected to have a system in place within a couple of weeks. Regarding operator training I explained to him that weaknesses in this area were highlighted in my plant-wide audit report which I asked him if he had the opportunity to review. He informed me that he receives 400 e-mails a day and of course he didn't review it as he is very busy man. He went on to inform me that I was not doing my job as I cannot expect that an e-mail (actually 3 in this case) would convey my concerns appropriately and I should have tracked him down (which I attempted to do) or print a copy and put it on his desk (which I did) or personally asked him to review my report.

We went on to "discuss" many of the current problems and plans I had for correcting everything. He actually commented that I hear you say that you are working on the systems but "our customer demands that we meet requirements now and we do not have time to put systems in place".

This had to be one of the most frustrating experiences in my life!

Input??

Your boss may not recognize the good work you are doing, but it sure reads very well in your post. Keep up the good work. Maybe someday, you'll BE the boss...

Doubtful I will ever be the boss here. Company is privately owned.

Kind of a new twist has evolved over the last few weeks.

I have experienced several situations in which the owner's daughter has completely undermined my efforts to put systems in place and change the status quo. Sometimes this has been behind the scenes - other times very overtly - challenging every word out of my mouth in meetings to address problems.

Obviously she is threatened by me as her Father is starting to show support.

Before I took the job I was warned by the recruiter that she will try to do everything she can to show everyone why I am not the right person for the job. Since I have been here I have been told that she is responsible for "pushing out some very good talent". I respond with - "I just have to figure out how to work with her" and am told that this is not possible and I need to figure out how to work around her.

Any words of wisdom?

Greg

Progress:
External PPM = 401
Customer Complaints = all on time
Parts on containment = reduced from 17 to 1

Doubtful I will ever be the boss here. Company is privately owned.

Kind of a new twist has evolved over the last few weeks.

I have experienced several situations in which the owner's daughter has completely undermined my efforts to put systems in place and change the status quo. Sometimes this has been behind the scenes - other times very overtly - challenging every word out of my mouth in meetings to address problems.

. . .

Any words of wisdom?

Greg

Progress:
External PPM = 401
Customer Complaints = all on time
Parts on containment = reduced from 17 to 1
Wow! I'm stunned the recruiter was so forthcoming.

The fact is you need a mediator to help resolve conflicts within the company for the good of the company. It simply can't happen in a one-way direction from subordinate to boss (or boss's pet) because of the taboos involved (asking boss to choose sides between family and outsider almost always results in outsider losing.)

That does not mean you can't approach the top dog and say [to this effect - use your own words], "I like this company and I'm trying to help it become world class by eliminating a lot of the situations where we work at cross-purposes. I seem to be unable to communicate my good intentions to "Mary." I don't expect you to takes sides with me against Mary. Is there some way we can bring in an outside expert in conflict resolution to work out a way for the two of us to work toward a common goal?"

Before I took the job I was warned by the recruiter that she will try to do everything she can to show everyone why I am not the right person for the job. Since I have been here I have been told that she is responsible for "pushing out some very good talent". I respond with - "I just have to figure out how to work with her" and am told that this is not possible and I need to figure out how to work around her.

Any words of wisdom?You obviously will not get rid of her, so your comment: "I just have to figure out how to work with her" is right on the button. The question is how... By asking for her help, maybe? I know, I know, easier said than done, but could some of your ideas become hers to counter the "not invented here" effect?

/Claes

You obviously will not get rid of her, so your comment: "I just have to figure out how to work with her" is right on the button. The question is how... By asking for her help, maybe? I know, I know, easier said than done, but could some of your ideas become hers to counter the "not invented here" effect?

/Claes

Claes and I were evidently thinking along the same lines. Why not go to "Mary" and express that you have noticed how she has the Boss's ear, and wondered if she would be willing to work with you and by sponsering and introducing a plan for improving product quality (allow her to take credit for "saving" the company). Then "develop" the plan with her, allow her some input and ownership for the plan.

Of course the is the alternative of constantly fighting with her and forcing the Boss to make a decision between his daughter or you - What a funny thing to do on your last day on the job.:eek:

Claes and I were evidently thinking along the same lines. Why not go to "Mary" and express that you have noticed how she has the Boss's ear, and wondered if she would be willing to work with you and by sponsering and introducing a plan for improving product quality (allow her to take credit for "saving" the company). Then "develop" the plan with her, allow her some input and ownership for the plan.

Of course the is the alternative of constantly fighting with her and forcing the Boss to make a decision between his daughter or you - What a funny thing to do on your last day on the job.:eek:

I was once caught in a similar situation in a small company, only I had no forewarning. In fact, the problem was the boss's wife, who had been introduced to me in interviews as an employee. Had I known she was his wife, and the company was actually run jointly, I wouldn't have taken the job to begin with. I was constantly caught in the middle of their little domestic power struggles and despite my best efforts at diplomacy and my complete willingness for my ideas to be credited to either him or her, there was no hope. I can also tell a few horror stories about a family-owned job shop where I was hired as QM, only to find that the shop was operated by the world's most dysfunctional family. I was once accidentally knocked arse-over-tin-kettle when a fistfight erupted between two of the owner's sons in their father's office. I picked myself up, said (as they were throwing one another around the room) "I think I came at a bad time," and excused myself.

Claes and David are correct; you can either find a way to work with her or face being continually frustrated and undermined. If it comes down to a battle, there's almost no way you can win. Blood is much, much thicker than water.

I was once accidentally knocked arse-over-tin-kettle when a fistfight erupted between two of the owner's sons in their father's office. I picked myself up, said (as they were throwing one another around the room) "I think I came at a bad time," and excused myself.Good Gracious! :mg: I have seen a few fistfights at work (Not where I'm currently employed, I'm happy to say), and even broken them up on occasion, but I have never seen the owners start throwing punches:nope: I don't suppose you stayed there for very long, did you?

/Claes

Good Gracious! :mg: I have seen a few fistfights at work (Not where I'm currently employed, I'm happy to say), and even broken them up on occasion, but I have never seen the owners start throwing punches:nope: I don't suppose you stayed there for very long, did you?

/Claes

It was a hopeless situation, and the fistfight was just one in a string of incidents that had me actively seeking an alternative. The proverbial back-breaking straw was when the semi-retired owner capriciously fired one of my inspectors but didn't bother to tell me (or anyone else) about it. He had overheard the inspector discussing something related to salary with one of the machine operators, then took the inspector on the side and told him that if he wasn't happy with what he was making he could try the alternative--unemployment--and then told him to get the &^*$ out of his building. Later in the day I was wondering why something the inspector had been working on wasn't done and went looking for him. No one knew where he was, so I asked in the front office if anyone had seen him. The owner overheard this and said "Oh, you mean Sammy the inspector? He doesn't work here anymore."

Doubtful I will ever be the boss here. Company is privately owned.

Kind of a new twist has evolved over the last few weeks.

I have experienced several situations in which the owner's daughter has completely undermined my efforts to put systems in place and change the status quo. Sometimes this has been behind the scenes - other times very overtly - challenging every word out of my mouth in meetings to address problems.

Obviously she is threatened by me as her Father is starting to show support.

Before I took the job I was warned by the recruiter that she will try to do everything she can to show everyone why I am not the right person for the job. Since I have been here I have been told that she is responsible for "pushing out some very good talent". I respond with - "I just have to figure out how to work with her" and am told that this is not possible and I need to figure out how to work around her.

Any words of wisdom?

Greg

Progress:
External PPM = 401
Customer Complaints = all on time
Parts on containment = reduced from 17 to 1


Gregfish,
Just thought I'd throw in a hoorah for the progress your showing.
As a point on the boss after you for results now, (don't have time to implement systems etc.) sounds like a man who is drowning because he doesn't have time to swim.
Is there someone at the customer's who you could have contact your boss and let him know how much better things seem to be getting? If there is one thing we all know it's that customers are way quicker to let you know when things are going wrong than when they are going right.

As far as the power struggle goes I think your getting great advise and can't add anything. Hope you can hang in there. Sometimes these kinds of compnies can turn into tremendous places to work, once the major issues get resolved.

James

All,

I continue to struggle to get any interest at all in our ISO system. Please review the following e-mail sent to "the executive team" to which I received no response.

"All,

As was previously communicated, our next surveillance audit is scheduled for February 23 and 24. While some progress is being made with making our system compliant, I have several concerns that I would like to express that may affect our certification. One of the primary responsibilities of an ISO Management Representative is to report to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement (clause 5.5.2 b)

Areas of concern include the following:

1) 7.3 Product/Process Design: While much effort has been made to upgrade this process to meet one of our primary customer’s requirements, only very recently have any of the new forms been initiated and the new process map has been waiting on (President's) approval for over a month. Additionally no kick-off meetings or any other meetings have been held to support that we are following either the new process or any process. Incomplete Engineering records was a finding during our last audit and will absolutely be revisited next month.

2) 8.2 Internal Audits: Our internal audits process struggled last year. Our system had deteriorated to the point that audits were scheduled only every eighteen months which is not sufficient to assure the effective functioning of any system. Several audits did not get done last year as a result of my inability to get the people who were assigned to audits – to complete them. Typical feedback was that they would get to it when they can and they never did. As a result of this – Intertek may determine that our internal audit process is nonconforming and today it is. We are beginning a new series of audits next month and support from all managers is necessary to make sure all audits get accomplished. To most people it is clear that performing audits is not important as no one from the executive team has ever showed much interest.

3) 8.5 Corrective Action: Currently we have 22 CARs that are over 100 days old. According to our procedure (based on commonly used guidelines) CARs are to be responded to within 10 days and corrective/preventive action completely implemented within 30 days. Obviously, depending on the scope of individual CARs, extensions are granted but action plans with dates are required. Participation in CAR meetings is typically the Quality Manager and Quality Engineer. We cannot solve CARs for every department. There must be some kind of ramification for failing to support this process. I proposed to (the Owner) that we consider CAR responsiveness during performance review or as part of an incentive program. I would expect that if a member from the executive team periodically asked individuals what they were doing for particular CARs – we would see some progress.

Please help me help (the Company) make these important systems work.

Thanks,

Greg Fish
Quality Assurance Manager"

It really gets frustrating when it is clear that no one feels that what you are doing is important! Any words of wisdom?

Greg

All,

I continue to struggle to get any interest at all in our ISO system. Please review the following e-mail sent to "the executive team" to which I received no response.

"All,

As was previously communicated, our next surveillance audit is scheduled for February 23 and 24. While some progress is being made with making our system compliant, I have several concerns that I would like to express that may affect our certification. One of the primary responsibilities of an ISO Management Representative is to report to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement (clause 5.5.2 b)

Areas of concern include the following:

1) 7.3 Product/Process Design: While much effort has been made to upgrade this process to meet one of our primary customer’s requirements, only very recently have any of the new forms been initiated and the new process map has been waiting on (President's) approval for over a month. Additionally no kick-off meetings or any other meetings have been held to support that we are following either the new process or any process. Incomplete Engineering records was a finding during our last audit and will absolutely be revisited next month.

2) 8.2 Internal Audits: Our internal audits process struggled last year. Our system had deteriorated to the point that audits were scheduled only every eighteen months which is not sufficient to assure the effective functioning of any system. Several audits did not get done last year as a result of my inability to get the people who were assigned to audits – to complete them. Typical feedback was that they would get to it when they can and they never did. As a result of this – Intertek may determine that our internal audit process is nonconforming and today it is. We are beginning a new series of audits next month and support from all managers is necessary to make sure all audits get accomplished. To most people it is clear that performing audits is not important as no one from the executive team has ever showed much interest.

3) 8.5 Corrective Action: Currently we have 22 CARs that are over 100 days old. According to our procedure (based on commonly used guidelines) CARs are to be responded to within 10 days and corrective/preventive action completely implemented within 30 days. Obviously, depending on the scope of individual CARs, extensions are granted but action plans with dates are required. Participation in CAR meetings is typically the Quality Manager and Quality Engineer. We cannot solve CARs for every department. There must be some kind of ramification for failing to support this process. I proposed to (the Owner) that we consider CAR responsiveness during performance review or as part of an incentive program. I would expect that if a member from the executive team periodically asked individuals what they were doing for particular CARs – we would see some progress.

Please help me help (the Company) make these important systems work.

Thanks,

Greg Fish
Quality Assurance Manager"

It really gets frustrating when it is clear that no one feels that what you are doing is important! Any words of wisdom?

Greg
Gee, Greg, I sympathize with your frustration, but you haven't structured this memo to ask for any specific action on the part of the recipients.

Folks say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
In this memo, you've only pointed in the general direction and left the horses on their own to wander over and have a sip.

Here's some tips. Try using them to recast this memo and try again.

Individualize the memo to each recipient on your list (simple reason is each will be performing a slightly different action) - Don't address a memo to "all" when you expect action - only address to "all" when you are conveying info without expectation of action, UNLESS everyone is expected to take the same action ("we're resurfacing the east parking lot Friday. Don't park there! Any cars left there will be towed to an impound lot one mile away at Plant B.") It's OK to mark a memo aimed at John Doe as copied to the boss(es) as a spur to John Doe to take action because he is "on record" with the boss.
Try using short, simple sentences with "we" and "us" and "you" plus action verbs instead of passive verbs. Instead of "As was previously communicated, our next surveillance audit is scheduled for February 23 and 24. While some progress is being made with making our system compliant, I have several concerns that I would like to express that may affect our certification." Try "We scheduled a "surveillance audit" for February 23 and 24. I note some confusion in YOUR department about [topic] and YOUR department will FAIL THE AUDIT because of this unless [action required.] Please call me in the next 3 days to tell me the situation is resolved or to schedule a convenient time to talk to me if you need help to get ready."
To the executive team or top boss (after the 3 day waiting period): "We scheduled a surveillance audit of our Quality Management System to determine if it complies with the ISO 9001:2001 Standard. My best judgment tells me we will FAIL this audit because of the shortcomings listed below.

I wrote to each manager (copy to you) with the specific shortfall(s) I note in his/her area, together with a request for action by [date] and with an offer to help understand and implement the answer.

As of today, the tally for RESOLVED and UNRESOLVED issues is: (list 2 columns.)

How do YOU suggest we proceed to resolve these last issues?"Comment:
I recognize you (Greg) are in a situation that requires utmost tact because of the relationships between boss and some managers. It is imperative you do not seem to "whine" about non-cooperation. You need to remain as professional and matter-of-fact as you can about the situation. It is plain you will never be a top manager in this family-run operation, BUT you can do everything possible to assure you are treated like a professional instead of a temp hired to sweep the floor. Part of being professional is that you can recognize the shortfalls and recommend SPECIFIC workable solutions. If you can't recommend a set of specific actions, step-by-step, to cure these shortfalls, then these folks have no need for someone to play Chicken Little and run around crying, "The sky is falling!"

It takes a special personality to be comfortable in a position with no real power in an organization EXCEPT the "power of persuasion" to get folks with real power to perform an action. I wish you a lot of luck in this situation. You are going to need it.

Others will comment on specific solutions to the CAR problem, etc. But your first challenge, as I see it, is establishing yourself within the organization as a "go to" guy with specific answers, instead of questions.

Greg,


Wes is correct. These issues need to be handled in a Tactful and diplomatic fashion.

Executives want specifics not best guess or assumptions. Give them the facts (documented) and see if they really want the system to work.

I guess my other question would be: Does the company have any customer requirements, or do they just want to be part trend of either a Registered QMS or a compliant QMS?



Coury Ferguson
Program/Contracts Manager

at the risk of drawing ire from my fellow covers, consider whether you really can change the culture at this company. If you are confident you can succeed, than go for it. If you don't think so, better to seek another opportunity at your timing, before this ship takes on water.

In these years of auditing, I have seen many self-satisfied companies brought down, because they did not think it important to seek ways to improve and better customer satisfaction.

I often say there are three kinds of people, or companies.

Those that make things happen,
Those that watch things happen,
Those that ask what happened.

There is another quote I like, if you aren't the lead horse, the view never changes...

It isn't easy, and I am not indifferent. I've been there. You either take charge of your destiny, or someone else will determine it for you.

at the risk of drawing ire from my fellow covers, consider whether you really can change the culture at this company. If you are confident you can succeed, than go for it. If you don't think so, better to seek another opportunity at your timing, before this ship takes on water.

In these years of auditing, I have seen many self-satisfied companies brought down, because they did not think it important to seek ways to improve and better customer satisfaction.

I often say there are three kinds of people, or companies.

Those that make things happen,
Those that watch things happen,
Those that ask what happened.

There is another quote I like, if you aren't the lead horse, the view never changes...

It isn't easy, and I am not indifferent. I've been there. You either take charge of your destiny, or someone else will determine it for you.

You won't draw any ire from me. I completely agree--there are some battles you just have no chance of winning, and the best time to look for a job is before you don't have one. If you can help to turn things around, more power to you, but unless the one(s) in charge really want to change, it will never happen.

I don't disagree with Jim or Hjilling, but you can't walk away from a fight UNLESS the odds are overwhelmingly against you.

Greg is in a tough spot, that's for sure. Only Greg will really know when he just can't summon the energy to do battle against the gonefs.

I think most of us agree he has a chance to tread water while he looks for other employment, but his long term prospects are limited even if he is able to charm these folks into doing what's necessary to achieve ISO registration.

My suspicion is that (even if he pulls off the minor miracle of getting registration) an organization with top management showing antipathy toward the Standard and toward interlopers like Greg who seek to impose the Standard on their organization will soon replace Greg with a namby pamby who will tell them what they want to hear.

I once engineered the buyout of a similarly narrow-minded closely held corporation by playing on their fear of being unable to continue once the original generation died. The founder knew deep down that he had not allowed his children to learn how to run a company and they would be at the mercy of pirates and other bottom feeders who would drive down the value of the business until the heirs were forced to sell at a substantial loss.

After a year of professional management, we spun the company back out to a corporate buyer for a 100% return on our equity stake.

I don't suggest Greg could do this on his own, but he could keep an eye out for an investor who could recognize a potential profit maker once the obstructionist current owners are out of the way. There are usually hefty finder's fees available for the smart finder,

...but his long term prospects are limited even if he is able to charm these folks into doing what's necessary to achieve ISO registration.

My suspicion is that (even if he pulls off the minor miracle of getting registration) an organization with top management showing antipathy toward the Standard and toward interlopers like Greg who seek to impose the Standard on their organization will soon replace Greg with a namby pamby who will tell them what they want to hear.



That is the heart of the matter. ISO will do little to help a company succeed unless the top management buys in. Without that, ISO merely becomes a burden around their necks.

Great input from all of you!!

Thanks Wes, hjilling, Jim and Coury,

I absolutely am treading water till I find something else but my ethics and belief in quality principles including the importance of systems prevents me from walking away without a fight or attempting to do the right thing!

Honestly the only thing that is keeping me afloat is the fact that I have already established relationships with key customers and have worked with them to manipulate our PPM numbers. If PPM numbers weren't going in the right direction, I would have a line at my door of executives ready to hang me!

Today I get to go to a very angry customer in Tinley Park (2 hours away) to disposition $14,000 worth of rejects. I already know that my effectiveness in this situation will be in how much of this I can get the company out of. I also already know that the rejects are legitimate and could tell you the root causes and solutions for them and have been communicating them to management since my very first day! What can you do? Its so much easier to say that they are a bad customer than to admit any fault of your own.

Thanks for all of your input! In situations like this - It helps to have input from people who have some level of understanding!

Greg

I absolutely am treading water till I find something else but my ethics and belief in quality principles including the importance of systems prevents me from walking away without a fight or attempting to do the right thing!


Good for you, Greg:applause: Fight the good fight. You might get whupped, but you can leave the ring knowing that at least you did the right thing. I've always figured that if a company is better off for my having been there, on some level it doesn't matter whether the mopes who run it realize it or not.

I can identify what you are going through. Been at my present job for four months now. Started out like gang busters but when the upper management saw what it takes to take it to the next level in quality and quality systems ALL support died.

Management uses the quality system as a weapon against inspection and technicians. 100% inspection is the hard, fast rule and every effort to change the mindset is rejected. Customers are lied to about product yields, corrective actions are glossed over, all with upper management support.

I too have put myself into a holding pattern. I have always been change agent but at this point in my career, the axe is getting duller quicker from hitting all those rocks. Eventually, the axe gets worn down to the put it cannot be sharpened again.

Keep trying, use stealth quality if you can. If thinks don't improve, find a job where you can make a difference. Just find one before you leave one.:(

Well, Greg, if nothing else, we can hoist a glass and toast your integrity and perseverance. Both are good qualities that someone, someday, will be delighted to have.

You sound like someone who deserves to have a good employer, and somewhere there is a good employer who deserves to have someone with integrity and perseverance.

Just don't forget to protect yourself on your journey.

Greg, it takes a rare person to do what you are doing and keep your self esteem and integrity intact. The way we do this is to do our best, making all types of reasonable efforts, which you are doing.

Lots of great advice in this thread. I have nothing to add but my support. :agree:

Hang in there. Continue to do the right thing as far as you can, and try to get into a better position as soon as you can because these fellows are probably not going to come around. The efforts you are taking are a good learning opportunity and great practice for later, when a less concentrated approach will (hopefully) be needed.

Well, Greg, if nothing else, we can hoist a glass and toast your integrity and perseverance. Both are good qualities that someone, someday, will be delighted to have.

You sound like someone who deserves to have a good employer, and somewhere there is a good employer who deserves to have someone with integrity and perseverance.

Just don't forget to protect yourself on your journey.

hjilling,

I am curious about what you mean by your last statement - Just don't forget...

Greg

hjilling,

I am curious about what you mean by your last statement - Just don't forget...

Greg


What I meant by that is, you sound like a nice guy, with integrity and an ambition to do things right. However, as we've discussed, in spite of your best efforts, you may not succeed. Sometimes, if management has less integrity and buy in than you do, they look for a scapegoat when it fails.

To protect yourself, keep appropriate records to show the good things you attempted to do in the process.

And, it doesn't hurt to keep an eye on job postings at other companies. A parachute is a good idea in these cases.

What I meant by that is, you sound like a nice guy, with integrity and an ambition to do things right. However, as we've discussed, in spite of your best efforts, you may not succeed. Sometimes, if management has less integrity and buy in than you do, they look for a scapegoat when it fails.

To protect yourself, keep appropriate records to show the good things you attempted to do in the process.

And, it doesn't hurt to keep an eye on job postings at other companies. A parachute is a good idea in these cases.
My turn to say, "AMEN!"

(You have to really consider this job as a way station in your career. Just make sure you have the conductor punch your ticket so you can get back on the train when it's time to move on.)

Greg, I feel your pain. I've been in quality for about 15yrs now. Anywhere from 80 employees to 14,000 employees. I am now working for a company of about 250. And have been faced with many obstacles including what you are facing now. Every company I've been to, after taking over another Quality Manager, has communicated to me that I'm the best QAM they have had. Not to boast but it is the truth (and I believe because of the avoidance of the below observations)

Please remember the following are observations I have seen and does not, at all, reflect how I think you are working. I'm sure you are an excellent Quality Manager!! :)

I do know a lot of the reasons Management does not respond to Standards and Infractions. Here are the following observations and major turnoff points for management:
1. Do not bombard management with multiple findings at one time. They will be hesitant to see the light.
2. When you present problems, present ideas to resolve. This will include your involvement to help improve.
3. Pick your battles. So many times a Quality Manager will take on the whole company (even knowing there are majors to be addressed) and yet again bombard management with this.
4. Don't call "all management" meetings. Isolate the infractions to the individual department heads. If the infraction takes multifunctional involvement really evaluate that. 9/10 times they don't.
5. Attack ONE thing at a time. You have to decide what is most important by conducting analysis (COST Analysis $$$). (And shhhh both you and I know cost improvements = quality improvement, but don't tell them that :) )Present that One cost analysis to management to flip their lid. Present the ONE idea to management and ask for their help. With yourself involved.
6. Sit back, enjoy yourself and enjoy others. It's just a job. Take the pressure off and you will find they will start to help you out more. If you show how relaxed you are they will soon follow and confide in you and finally understand you are not the enemy. If you are constantly stressed, it will show and this will also turn them off. They have enough to stress about.

All in all it sounds like your company has been dealing with ISO issues for a while. So stressing over it is only going to make things worse for you. And is probably the same mistake that previous managers have mAde. Be the different one, the relaxed one. Joke (professionally) around with them when talking about opportunities. Help them accomplish goals.

I know some of what I said might be a pipe dream but if you just accomplish #1 and 6, you will go far.

Welcome to the Cove, tabare :bigwave:

Great first post!

Why thank you Jim!


:D

Welcome to the Cove, tabare :bigwave: Great first post!
Let me echo that. Great advice :applause:

/Claes

tabare,

I have read your boasts and observations several times as your approach is clearly different than mine and I am struggling to accept it at face value as you say you have faced the same obstacle but didn't elaborate on this experience at all. I am sure that it may be similar but not the same.

Comments to your observations:

1) As the ISO Mgt Rep it is my responsibility to report on the status of the quality system to management. It is not my fault that they have allowed their system to deteriorate so badly and I would be negligent to sugar coat internal audit findings so as not to bombard my management.

2) This is certainly my approach. Having implemented numerous quality systems, I know how to fix most every problem my company has. I always offer my ideas, have active involvement in all solutions and in many cases - do the work for others to help correct the problems when necessary (write procedures, perform the training, etc).

3) Unfortunately the QMS encompasses the whole company. I do pick my battles - see my big three posted earlier.

4) Never done that - really cannot comment.

5) Certainly would be a luxury but the objectives given to me from my management include:
a) Zero defects at the customer - NOW!
b) Eliminate 130K in scrap monthly - NOW
Kind of difficult to pick one thing when the cause of these issues is the total lack of systems.

6) This I can work on :)

My predecessors were nothing like me in that they obviously strived for mediocrity and communicated to management that 1) Zero defects is not possible and 2) Never "bombarded" management with issues, kept a very low profile and rode the wave until they chose to leave on their own.

Thanks for your words.

Greg

Greg, you use "their" a lot ;)
I understand completely. Just like the last sentence most might be a pipe dream for you in particular to your company. I just know what has worked for me. Let me give you a couple of examples of how I handled some problems with the company I'm now working for.

1. We have approx. 15,000 tools that need to be controlled. There was 0 Control when I started. To help, my predecessor spent weeks making a procedure for this process for Manufacturing and Design engineering (BOM Control) for this process. No testing, isolated communication, just met with the individuals and they nodded their heads (without respect) to the old QM. (Thinking he was helping). I sat down and had a heart to heart with the vp of manufacturing and him and I came up with a solution. We now have full control of our tooling.

In the meantime I had manufacturing work instructions not signed off or approved, QMS procedures not signed, employees not signing off the travelers as required, a major customer visit and ISO audit due in 2 weeks time. Delivery rating =30% and Quality =5.0% on returns (Which by the way is now 89% OTD and <.5% Quality on returns).

I had only been in the company for 2 weeks.

I put together a plan for the major items and due dates. If they took a year to complete, they did. I helped when I could. Due diligence for process audits to ensure effectivety, physically moved tooling around if I needed and suddenly everyone was on board.

I showed my face in manufacturing more than at my desk, even though I knew procedures needed cleaning and written.

I knew I needed to gain respect to get it and get cooperation. I wasn't just going to get it. Especially since my predecessor had such poor respect.

But I worked with them, helping them, did what I needed to do.

I love my job, love the people I work with and wouldn't change for the world. We have a mutual respect for one another and they go over and beyond to work with me to accomplish "everything" that needs to be done.

I don't know what else to tell you hahah. But jobs can be fun. And "always remember Quality is always bad news, get used to it, have fun with it and just deal." - that was the best advice I had ever gotten, and how simple it was. The world is not going to crumble if you don't get management support. After all it is management making their decisions.

I was in a rush to write this, hope I didn't ramble too much with little information for you!!

:bonk: :o

Greg, you use "their" a lot ;)


Just for the record:

Me = 8 in 7 pages of posts
Others = 16
You = 5

Doesn't seem like a lot to me :rolleyes:

It's Friday. Time for all of us to take a deep breath and look back at a tough week. Somehow, when emotions get high, skin gets thin and taut and we start picking up vibes no one else can feel and certainly aren't intended.

Let's be clear. When any employee uses the terms "them" and "they" when referring to the organization as a whole versus using the terms to identify a distinct group of individuals, it means that employee feels too alienated from the organization to include himself by saying "we" and "us."

The organization members may not feel as if they are excluding our "hero" at all - they are just oblivious.

100% With you there Wes! :)

Greg, you're cute with the eyerolll. I've only been a member for a week now ;) I'll take that a compliment!

It's Friday. Time for all of us to take a deep breath and look back at a tough week. Somehow, when emotions get high, skin gets thin and taut and we start picking up vibes no one else can feel and certainly aren't intended.

Let's be clear. When any employee uses the terms "them" and "they" when referring to the organization as a whole versus using the terms to identify a distinct group of individuals, it means that employee feels too alienated from the organization to include himself by saying "we" and "us."

The organization members may not feel as if they are excluding our "hero" at all - they are just oblivious.

I can't count the number of times I've been told, "They told me to do it this way."
I have declared repeatedly here that If I ever run into this "THEY" I'm going to fire him/her on the spot!!!

Several Years ago a DJ here in town did a comedy bit about the "THEY INSTITUTE". Each item started as "In a press release 'THEY' said......." or something like that. It was hilarious... and it helped me put things into perspective.

Well that and turning 51 this year.

James

it helped me put things into perspective.

Well that and turning 51 this year.

James
Only 51? I have a pair of wool hunting socks I'm pretty sure are older than that - my dad used them when he was a teen. He hauled them out of storage after WWII and used them on hunting trips with friends (sometimes with me, too) up through the Viet Nam "conflict."

I got them after 'Nam, along with a collection of shotguns and rifles. My daughters didn't wear them, but I have three grandsons eyeing them covetously.

James, waiting for the Joke...... :)

James, waiting for the Joke...... :)

Joke?? Was I telling a Joke??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Oh well "THEY" say that the memory is the second thing to go......
Now if I could only remember the first.:bonk:

James

Only 51? I have a pair of wool hunting socks I'm pretty sure are older than that - my dad used them when he was a teen. He hauled them out of storage after WWII and used them on hunting trips with friends (sometimes with me, too) up through the Viet Nam "conflict."

I got them after 'Nam, along with a collection of shotguns and rifles. My daughters didn't wear them, but I have three grandsons eyeing them covetously.

Turning 51 isn't all that big a deal to me really. I got a dose of the old timers about 15 or 20 years ago when I co-chaperoned a birthday party. This was when the kids were running around moonwalking and wearing one glove. (ala Michael Jackson) Also Paul McCartney had recorded a duet with Stevie Wonder called Ebony and Ivory. Anyway the kids are goofing around and one turns to my son and his friend and says, "Hey did you know that Paul McCartney use to be a Beatle?" Man that did it for me. Decided right then not to fight it. If I'm going to turn into my dad I'm gonna have fun with it.
Haven't really been bothered by it since.

James

I don't wish to sound like some old lady here, folks, but it would be great if the posts after this could be back on topic. The little respite of humour and banter has been good at alleviating any possible tense moments, but I think it would be wonderful if we could remember the issue at hand....or post....

Thanks a bunch! :)

James - Darn@! Was hoping to get enlightened myself. Keep thinking.. :)

Thanks RCBeyette!

I thought I was getting "post-jacked".

Latest here - ISO Surveillance Audit last Thursday. One minor for 30% of internal audits not getting done (guess it supports my plea to mgt) and one observation for "no evidence of a system for PM of equipment".

Pretty lame and makes my job difficult as THEY will continue to believe that they have a great quality system :) . Again - what can you do.

Got a pretty good lead on a job in Largo FL. Start-up facility with no old entrenched culture to deal with :biglaugh: :biglaugh: .

Wish me luck!

Greg

Wish me luck!You got it: Good luck mate :agree:

/Claes

Thanks RCBeyette!

You're welcome.

Latest here - ISO Surveillance Audit last Thursday. One minor for 30% of internal audits not getting done (guess it supports my plea to mgt) and one observation for "no evidence of a system for PM of equipment".

Pretty lame and makes my job difficult as THEY will continue to believe that they have a great quality system :) . Again - what can you do.

Okay, call me naive but based on those findings how can they believe that their system is great? Have you met with them to discuss addressing these findings or, as a starting point, determining root causes(s) for them? It would be very enlightening to hear why 1/3 of the audits weren't completed and why there was no evidence to indicate the existence of PM system for equipment. (FYI, my concern with that last one is that it was pretty soft...my gut feels that it was originally intended for calibration of equipment...care to tell us how this finding came about?)

Got a pretty good lead on a job in Largo FL. Start-up facility with no old entrenched culture to deal with

Best of luck. Keep in mind, however, that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. Start-up facility may not wish to provide resources (i.e., $$$) to implement a system and may merely want a piece of paper on the wall......

Wish me luck!

Greg[/QUOTE]

Quote: (Originally Posted by gregfish) Latest here - ISO Surveillance Audit last Thursday. One minor for 30% of internal audits not getting done (guess it supports my plea to mgt) and one observation for "no evidence of a system for PM of equipment".

Pretty lame and makes my job difficult as THEY will continue to believe that they have a great quality system . Again - what can you do.

Okay, call me naive but based on those findings how can they believe that their system is great? Have you met with them to discuss addressing these findings or, as a starting point, determining root causes(s) for them?

They think they have a "great system" because they passed the audit with only 1 minor and 1 OFI.

Last I read PM was a TS requirement....and missing a requiremnt was a Major finding?

It's no fun being Chicken Little - especially when the auditor comes in and the sky does not fall.

I no longer say, "we'll fail if we don't do so and so". I've learned to say, "this should be a major problem, if we get a good auditor!"

Last I read PM was a TS requirement....and missing a requiremnt was a Major finding?

It's no fun being Chicken Little - especially when the auditor comes in and the sky does not fall.

I no longer say, "we'll fail if we don't do so and so". I've learned to say, "this should be a major problem, if we get a good auditor!"

I'm not familiar with TS so I can't comment on it being a requirement there, however with ISO 9001, while not specifically called Preventive Maintenance (that would be making life way to easy!) it is implied in:

7.5.1 (c) and (d) "...the use of suitable equipment" and "...the available and use of monitoring and measuring devices" followed by 7.6 (e) "...during handling, maintenance and storage".

It depends on the processes and equipment used at an organization, but for some companies this requires activities beyond Quality Control's Gage Track programme (or comparable system).

And, it does go back to the very first requirement of 7.5.1...."The organization shall plan and carry out prodcution and service provision under controlled conditions." Yes, the list afterwards describes what is necessary, where applicable, to control those conditions but in a manufacturing organization that would more than likely include a PM programme of sorts to ensure that equipment is well maintained.

I used to say in orientations to explain this part..."If our equipment goes to heck in a hand basket, our product will most certainly follow suit."

The observation was really stated much weaker - kind of like "may want to consider tracking scheduled vs. unscheduled maintenance to understand the impact of unscheduled maintenance".

RCBeyette - I understand completely about "the grass isn't always greener...". Throughout my career I have been working on interview questions for mgt to understand if they understand the value of systems, have a clue about what quality can do for them. Any recommendations?

Greg

The observation was really stated much weaker - kind of like "may want to consider tracking scheduled vs. unscheduled maintenance to understand the impact of unscheduled maintenance".

Well, it was an observation so it's not mandatory, right? ;) However, I would expect to see a strong system consider the observation and explain why it was or was not accepted.

We had a similar opportunity for improvement issued by an external auditor several years back. At first, we scoffed and did the obligatory round of pshaw's...:rolleyes: ...but then we thought about it. It didn't add that much more extra work to our planners and one department had informally started it. Our routine equipment care programme was then born and it has since evolved into a much more reliable system.

If the tracking of scheduled versus scheduled doesn't appeal to your company, what about modifying it a bit and tracking scheduled versus actual? In other words, what percentage of your PMs are not actually completed when required? And why?

I understand completely about "the grass isn't always greener...". Throughout my career I have been working on interview questions for mgt to understand if they understand the value of systems, have a clue about what quality can do for them. Any recommendations?

Sorry, must be my head cold, but I don't understand what you mean by interview questions for management. :( It sounds like a separate post topic, though.

...
And, it does go back to the very first requirement of 7.5.1...."The organization shall plan and carry out prodcution and service provision under controlled conditions." Yes, the list afterwards describes what is necessary, where applicable, to control those conditions but in a manufacturing organization that would more than likely include a PM programme of sorts to ensure that equipment is well maintained...



If I saw a lot of breakdowns, and it caused quality or delivery problems to the customer, this clause could lead to an nc, even in ISO.

The justification is if the customer problems result from breakdowns, and the cause of the breakdowns is no maintenance, that would not be a controlled condition. Most other situations would probably be an Opportunity for Improvement.

Worse case is, if it does happen, just follow the non-complient note response procedure and close each item one at a time.

I have similar problems as listed out here with non-responses to CA's - what do you mean by following a "non-compliant" note response so I can close these out ... i.e. "management decided that on review they really didn't want to make a change at this time?" thanks, Karen

I believe what greg was asking in regards to interview questions for management is a request for a list of questions you'd ask the management you're interviewing with during an interview where you're applying to become part of their management system for quality. The objective being to identify ahead of time management support for quality systems/style of management systems. It's easy for management to say they support xyz, but then when you get in the plant, you find that their support is more for having ISO on the wall than what you envision a quality system should be.

I've thought several times of starting a thread on the topic of what interview questions you'd ask management during your next job search in the quality arena. I'm thinking of ones other than the typical - why is the position open, even though that is a critical one to ask. I forget the thread, but qualityboi posted a good list worded for both sides within the last 6 months.

If I have time, I'll try to start such a thread this PM from my home computer, I think it might prove interesting - might be worded along the lines of which questions do you wish you'd asked management during your last job search.

Kevin H,

You understand my question perfectly. Taking a preventive approach - how can you know management's attitude towards quality before you accept the job and get stuck in a bad situation.

Another way to look at it might be - making sure that the grass is greener:) .

I even thought of offering a free - full plant ISO assessment before making a decision regarding employment.

Greg

Kevin H,

You understand my question perfectly. Taking a preventive approach - how can you know management's attitude towards quality before you accept the job and get stuck in a bad situation.

Another way to look at it might be - making sure that the grass is greener:) .

I even thought of offering a free - full plant ISO assessment before making a decision regarding employment.

Greg


Greg, you're an auditor, and you've been burned...so, ask them questions like you would in an audit. Feel out the areas that you were burned in. If you're a smart fellow, you ought to be able to learn what you want, the same as you would if you were doing an audit.

If you still want a little more assurance, ask to take a peek at a few key items related to ISO.

We had 0 Non-conformances. I'm excited.

Kevin H,You understand my question perfectly. Taking a preventive approach - how can you know management's attitude towards quality before you accept the job and get stuck in a bad situation.Greg

Greg

I started another post about this, just look at the employees washroom. Everything you need to know about managements attitude is waiting for you in there. Quite a few disagreed with me on this.

As I get older, I'm slowly moving from hard data to soft things...heresy for an engineer. I can "feel" it on the floor within minutes of walking in. Spidey sense?

It is easy for me to tell if the place is "Excellent" - there is an energy that crackles and glows. I almost think I see it in color like a corona? Has anyone else ever got this feeling?

Horrible is also easy - chaos rules the house. The average and adeqaute companies are harder to read.

I may have to surrender my engineering degree after a post like this....

Are products going out the door and not coming back? That question needs to be begged when "Worrying" about a quality system. If products are not coming back or customer satisfaction is high it seems the quality system is working and how the quality system is being dealt with are two different strategies.

Compliance to the ISO standards is a very minimal account for the Company's Quality System. The effectiveness of Management, cost of quality, customer satisfaction etc. is key. The Quality System just supports you in your efforts to customer satisfaction.

Every company has flaws. Focus on Quality Of Product and use what works for you. Of course you have to be compliant, but really sit back and think about this. Are your procedures working for you, for your quality system and the company.

If the audits aren't getting done question how many audits you are conducting in a year. What is the effectiveness of the audits. Are you getting 0 non compliances with a particular system yet still auditing it each year? Maybe the solution calls for skip audits. Or Consolidating processes. If you are doing more than 15 Audits in one year for ISO, something behind the ball is not working for the company and Quality System.

ISO is supposed to work for you, not work for it ;)

And as I will always say. It's just a job. Have fun. Smile Lots!

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

You should be a poet Caster ;)

You might want to ask Who you would report to "as a Quality Manager". I think this will tell you a ton about the company.

If you're reporting to anyone other than the high comandor, most likely they do not take Quality so seriously.

I report to the president of the comapny.

This attitude of tabare is a good one to have - essentially you look at what works and take satisfaction in that BEFORE roiling your insides over what doesn't. It's a rare operation that has NOTHING going right.

Caster is also on the right track, IMO, because "feel" is usually something you can trust and save the time and trouble of rigorous statistical investigation.

For years and years, my ASQ Profile has contained this paragraph:

I put more emphasis on "big picture" and "company culture" than on metrics. If all the members of the organization are indeed working together, metrics are a natural function of identifying areas to improve. If the organization is NOT working together, the imposition of metrics can be draconian and serve to divide the culture even more.

Love the quote