The PPAP manual requires records of compliance with CSR. ( Item 19 in the " retention / submission table )

Depending on the level the customer gave you, you will have to retain or sent the records.

Best regards,

Antoine

The PPAP manual requires records of compliance with CSR. ( Item 19 in the " retention / submission table )

Depending on the level the customer gave you, you will have to retain or sent the records.

Best regards,

Antoine

Does it not mean CSR's related to PPAP?

Thanks

Does it not mean CSR's related to PPAP?

Thanks

The requirement is imprecise. It is not clear whether they mean to limit it to CSR's related to PPAPs, or CSR's related to the customer in general. I believe if you think about the intent of the PPAP exercise in the first place, it is to demonstrate that in making this particular part number, you will be able to meet all the relevant requirements (dimensional, product performance, material properties, capabilty and stability of your processes...etc,). Therefore, it stands to reason, if the customer has a relevant CSR, it would be approrpiate to make mention of it, or demonstrate the requirement is met. That is how I look at it when doing audits. It is a somewhat broader interpretation, but clearly would meet the customer's needs, which is what a PPAP is all about.

This sub thread about PPAP is in fact not an answer to all the question and thus I have split the threads
Here is the original thread on CSR Do we have to show full compliance to all customer specific requirements (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13281)
The requirement is imprecise. It is not clear whether they mean to limit it to CSR's related to PPAPs, or CSR's related to the customer in general. I believe if you think about the intent of the PPAP exercise in the first place, it is to demonstrate that in making this particular part number, you will be able to meet all the relevant requirements (dimensional, product performance, material properties, capabilty and stability of your processes...etc,). Therefore, it stands to reason, if the customer has a relevant CSR, it would be approrpiate to make mention of it, or demonstrate the requirement is met. That is how I look at it when doing audits. It is a somewhat broader interpretation, but clearly would meet the customer's needs, which is what a PPAP is all about.

The exact requirement is
page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)" (my emphasis)
The PPAP hand book was released before ISO/TS16949:2002.
How do the big 3 manage document control does the publication of CSR's then cancel the content of section II? What if there is a conflict?

page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)I read this to mean the PPAP CSR's listed in Section II (pages 19 through 37). I have a truck customer that has confirmed this by requiring me to MSA EVERY guage and not families (II.4.5).

I assume that the rest of the CSRs are covered by your registrar's audit against the requirements of the companies listed on page two of your TS cert.

I have AIAG training for APQP, PPAP and FMEA for the next two days. I'll ask this question.
-Icy

I read this to mean the PPAP CSR's listed in Section II (pages 19 through 37). I have a truck customer that has confirmed this by requiring me to MSA EVERY guage and not families (II.4.5).

I assume that the rest of the CSRs are covered by your registrar's audit against the requirements of the companies listed on page two of your TS cert.

I have AIAG training for APQP, PPAP and FMEA for the next two days. I'll ask this question.
-Icy

The relevant CSRs are the ones that relate directly to the part(s) being submitted. In other words, if there are CSRs for say, EDI that apply to doing business with the customer in general, they don't have to be addressed in PPAP submissions.

The relevant CSRs are the ones that relate directly to the part(s) being submitted. In other words, if there are CSRs for say, EDI that apply to doing business with the customer in general, they don't have to be addressed in PPAP submissions.

I think you would also want to check CSR's for TS 16949, particularly if supplying one of the big 3. Ford has a CSR on Attribute GR&R that requires 50 pcs X 3 Trials X 3 Operators and is addressed in their CSR for TS 16949. So it is in the suppliers best interest to investigate all sources of the CSR's and ask the Customer about them as well. You never know they might waive some of them also. :rolleyes:

I think you would also want to check CSR's for TS 16949, particularly if supplying one of the big 3. Ford has a CSR on Attribute GR&R that requires 50 pcs X 3 Trials X 3 Operators and is addressed in their CSR for TS 16949. So it is in the suppliers best interest to investigate all sources of the CSR's and ask the Customer about them as well. You never know they might waive some of them also. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I'm confused, but I don't think that the Ford MSA thing you refer to bears any direct relationship to TS 16949. It's certainly a CSR, and it's directly related to parts that involve attributes gaging (which means it's relevant) but looking in TS 16949 won't help if you're trying to learn what the CSRs are for any given customer. And as an aside, when (or if) the 4th Edition PPAP manual comes out, you won't be able to look there either--you'll have to go directly to the customer or iaob.org.

This sub thread about PPAP is in fact not an answer to all the question and thus I have split the threads
Here is the original thread on CSR Do we have to show full compliance to all customer specific requirements (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13281)


The exact requirement is
page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)" (my emphasis)
The PPAP hand book was released before ISO/TS16949:2002.
How do the big 3 manage document control does the publication of CSR's then cancel the content of section II? What if there is a conflict?


In my view, in case of conflicts, the TS standard would trump the PPAP manual, and a CSR would trump the TS standard (though that would probably be unlikely). Any remaining conflicts would be resolved by the customer or the IAOB, whichever is more relevant.

This will be solved with the publication of edition 4

PPAP what edition to next year ??? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=14071)
:lol: :vfunny:

Here's the answer straight from AIAG training: PPAP Section I.2.2.19 Customer Specific Requirements refers to:
1) CSRs for PPAP as listed in Section II of the PPAP manual
2) CSRs for PPAP as listed in each customers' Supplier Quality Manual.

It does not cover CSRs that are generically discovered and applied via TS 7.2.1 Determination of requirements related to the product (e.g. a returnable packaging specification). These should be part of the Design Record.
-Icy

Hello,

Now with the new PPAP Edition, the CSR are before the new release.

So all CSR are included in the PPAP Submisson, General Terms and Contitions, testing requirements, Logistic manuals etc.? :mad:

What if I not comply to them, or they are still in inspection?:truce:

Was this really the intention of the PPAP manual? In my opinion we are talking from a Part Approval, and it technical specifications (mainly on the drawing).

Try to document the contract review there can't be it. A lot of customers still didn't answer to requests for waiver or changes.

I'm looking forward to see other opinions


Tamara

Hello,

Now with the new PPAP Edition, the CSR are before the new release.

So all CSR are included in the PPAP Submisson, General Terms and Contitions, testing requirements, Logistic manuals etc.? :mad:

What if I not comply to them, or they are still in inspection?:truce:

Was this really the intention of the PPAP manual? In my opinion we are talking from a Part Approval, and it technical specifications (mainly on the drawing).

Try to document the contract review there can't be it. A lot of customers still didn't answer to requests for waiver or changes.

I'm looking forward to see other opinions


Tamara

I'm going to give this a go, although I'm not sure I understand what's being asked. The only difference between the 3rd and 4th editions of the PPAP manual with regard to CSRs is that the 4th edition directs you to the customer, while the 3rd edition included CSRs for the B3. The requirements for addressing CSRs hasn't changed. If a given CSR isn't relative to PPAP (as in the case of a requirment for EDI capability as mentioned earlier in this thread) then you don't have to deal with it in the PPAP submission.

If this doesn't answer your question, please try again:D

I'm going to give this a go, although I'm not sure I understand what's being asked. The only difference between the 3rd and 4th editions of the PPAP manual with regard to CSRs is that the 4th edition directs you to the customer, while the 3rd edition included CSRs for the B3. The requirements for addressing CSRs hasn't changed. If a given CSR isn't relative to PPAP (as in the case of a requirment for EDI capability as mentioned earlier in this thread) then you don't have to deal with it in the PPAP submission.

If this doesn't answer your question, please try again:D


Yeah, I have to agree. As an auditor, I expect to see the auditee has incorporated CSR requirements in their system. I would expect to see evidence that particular product related CSR's are being addressed, perhaps Layered Audits would be an example, but I would not expect to see 100 pages cvering every conceivable thing. Can't imagine the customer wants to see it either.