If you haven't, take a read at: www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000525.html (http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20000525.html)

It starts out:

Stranger in a Strange Land

How Homer Sarasohn Brought Industrial Quality to Japan and Why It Took Japan So Long to Learn

By Robert X. Cringely

Last week's column mentioned Homer Sarasohn, who among many things was at one time the chief engineer for IBM. Not many people know about Sarasohn, but even the mention of his name prompted several readers to ask for more. So this week, I'm taking a break from my series on new companies to take a look at a classic Sarasohn story. And at the same time, we get to look at the whole business of industrial quality control from a different -- and I hope enlightening -- perspective. This is the story of how Japan came to appreciate quality and why it took so long to happen. It's not the story you expect. And it's the sort of lesson that's so important that we as a society have already forgotten it.

No i have never heard of him. Is it true?

Actually (I know i am going to get eaten now) I always found Deming a bit over-rated, i suspected he was a little contradictory in his writings and statements. Could i be the only person that has twice failed to get to the end of 'Out of the Crisis'?.

He did produce another book which was basically written from the point of view of an attendant at one of his seminars, and this was a lot more digestable (Could it have been written by Bill Latzko?).

Regards

------------------
Andy B

[This message has been edited by Andy Bassett (edited 12 July 2000).]

You're right - Deming was not a great writer (and he could ramble if you ever saw him in person). However, his ideas, though not original, were "right on the mark". Overrated? No, I don't think so. Any one of his points has plenty of evidence in American management. I can't speak for the management in your country, but Deming, for us peasants, was (is) a breath of fresh air!

I don't know about the accuracy of the article, I certainly have never thought of Deming as a master of self promotion.
For those who are interested in following up by reading Sarasohn's work there was a copy of his manual written for the Japanese on the Deming Electronic Network at http://deming.ces.clemson.edu/pub/den/

Don,

Well put. It is one writer's perspective. The reader of any article or print must keep this in mind. Do you believe everything your read? I don't. However, I believe that there may be some truth with what the article states.

In many books written by Japanese Quality contributors, (Kaizen, by Imai comes to mind immediately) I have noticed it mentioned (by the author or one of his sources) that many of the ideas and concepts that Deming is noted for, were in fact, other folks contributions. Who is right? I don't know. Still, it doesn't matter much to me, so long as I can agree with the concept presented, not so much the presentor.

I enjoyed the article. Interesting to me. I also can't help but point out that Deming gives plenty of credit to many folks, even those folks he can't remember (their name anyway) are given proper credit (i.e. some person in one of his 4 day seminar makes a statement that makes a passage in any of his books). This does not seem to be consistent with a self proclaimer, IMHO. Juran has been accused of the same thing. That one doesn't bother me much either. I'd rather focus on the concepts.

Regards,

Kevin

Back to the group...

I think there is a whole lot of nonsense talked about the Japanese way to success. In my experience, dealing with Japanese companies, they base their sucess on highly enducated and committed engineers, attention to detail, practical management and smart, long term investment. By comparison, Western managers are always on the look out for the main chance, in their careers, in their goals and in their short term tactics.
I've always said, only half jokingly, that the Japanese spread these quality fads to keep us occupied while they left us behind by good engineering. Let's face it, statistical variation was no secret in the '50s, either to the Japanese or to anyone else; "It's not what you do but the way that you do it". And look, 50 years later, who is applying Deming's theories from the top down? Not many.
I suggest that what Deming brought back from Japan, about management, was more significant than what whoever it was took to Japan about variation. We have to assume that that was where he learned it.
What I like about Deming is the way he lays into management and makes them responsible, as opposed to every other guru who takes responsibility from management and gives it to specialists. Whether that was the reason he is rated so high, I can't say, but that's one reason why he deserves to be.
rgds, John C

Don't worry Andy. No one bites here that I know of.

I think the wise person leaves themself open to new information. It is necessary for developing one's theory. When a person aligns themself with a 'guru', hopefully it is done because they find that their own theory closely resembles a guru's (coincidence). At least, that's what I think. I started out a firm believer in Feigenbaum. Now, a Deming disciple (I am still heavily influenced by many other gurus and non-gurus). Maybe it will change again when I am influenced by a new piece of information and my theory changes? Who knows?

As a Deming disciple, I appreciate the fact that there are folks out there who don't see eye to eye with every Deming concept (I don't either). How else can theory be refined without testing it or putting it against another one? It is what strengthens your theory, or causes one to reevaluate, and perhaps adopt the new one. Perhaps it is a blend of both? You don't need to cringe to speak your mind, but I appreciate your sensitivity to your reading audiance.

Regards,

Kevin

Anyone out there read "Mind and the World Order" that Deming sites 4 times in Out of the Crisis?

Sorry, I haven't.

Originally posted by Kevin Mader:
Don't worry Andy. No one bites here that I know of.I do! :lick:

Hi,

Nope... Never heard of him before but this was an interesting tale, so I think I'll try to find out more now.

We have always been told that Japan eagerly adapted the ideas of Deming and others after the war, and then proceeded to blow the west off the court....

Then their astonishing success bullied us into accepting these ideas.

This story seems to indicate that they too had to be shoved pretty hard in the right direction.

So: Some kind of pressure seems to be neccessary for radical changes to take place.

/Claes

Back to Mind and the World Order....Deming used to say..."how do you know" (or "how could he know") alot.
Same thing philosophers used to say.."how do you know what you know." Deming merged statistics with philosophy to help understand processes. I think that often got misinterpretted as Deming taught SPC.
In fact, he disliked "statisticians" that sat behind computers, and felt the folks on the floor weren't given the <statistical> knowledge to make decisions that didn't involve tampering.
SPC allows you to predict what the next part will look like...assuming all things remain the same. If a sample is outside the control limits...something changed....right? Maybe, you need to know, could just be the one sample outside the 3-sigma that you'll get every once in a while. Always bugs me when someone (auditors) insist one data point needs an explanation when it could be to simply wait for the next sample. Control charts in the hands of the uneducated is trouble.

Never got much farther into the Mind and the World Order thing, but realized he was much more than a statistician in the little research I did.

My 2 cents - yes, I'm a Deming follower, altho I wasn't when I first heard his ramblings at a 4-dayer. He was probably too old by then, sorry to say. But doing the research and trying to figure out what he was really saying made it much clearer.

"Without data, its just another opinion."
I've used that line more than once!

Laura

Something I came across in my travels.....

Regards,

Kevin

Strangers in a strange land

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Strangers in a strage land
From: "William J. Latzko" latzko@worldnet.att.net
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:34 -0400

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copy of message to Bob Cringley:

There not being a discussion group for your article on Homer Sarasohn, I
write to you directly. since there is no discussion group on your web site
for this article.

While Sarasohn and Protzman did very valuable industrial engineering work,
they did not do the essential of getting Japanese top management to realize
the importance of quality. Having looked at their training text, I found
the it included some basic control chart methods. The few pages devoted to
quality compared to the rest of their extensive discussion of other
industrial engineering tools speaks for itself.

I admire Sarasohn and Protzman for the work they did. It certainly helped
the Japanese on to the road of recovery. However, to say that Deming, a
friend and colleague of Shewhart, did nothing to deserve his admiration by
the Japanese is incorrect.

To get the facts straight, Deming did not work for JUSE. They invited him
to come and teach the 600 some odd scientists and engineers in August of
1950. If that were all that he did, he would be as forgotten today as are
Sarasohn and Protzman.

What Deming did was to talk to the top managers of Japan and tell them that
quality came from them, not just the workers. These managers represented
80% of the Capital in Japan. He introduced the quality model which later
became the Plan-Do-Study-Act model. For your information, Deming always
credited Walter Shewhart for this model even though it was mostly his,
Deming's, creation.

Sure Sarasohn and Protzman were pioneers and did much to change Japanese
manufacturing methods. But, to say that Deming, and later Juran and
Feigenbaum did nothing to deserve the honors that they got from the
Japanese, is more than simplistic. I wish that you would set the record
straight.

Bill Latzko
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professor W. J. Latzko, Ph.D. Voice: 201-868-5338
215 - 79th Street Fax: 201-868-5338
North Bergen, NJ 07047-5727
E-mail: latzko@worldnet.att.net
Alt E-mail: latzko@mary.fordham.edu

Originally posted by Laura M

Anyone out there read "Mind and the World Order" that Deming sites 4 times in Out of the Crisis?We need a Book Review on "Mind and the World Order"... Any takers? :confused:

Unless you have a doctorate in philosophy, a book review will be tough. We asked a local college a while back to help us "read" the book. The head of the department was very intrigued on its connection to business, but basically said we couldn't start there. Needed a better background in philosophy. "I think therefore I am" stuff. It put everything together nicely regarding Deming, but we never did make it through the book when the money got pulled. Back to my earlier message, it helps understand Deming's "philosophy." As an aside, the philosophy professor read Out of the Crisis and was very intrigued. Finally, a practical application for what he was teaching. I don't know where he went with it as far as incorporating into classroom studies, but it was neat to see industy and academia both learn from each other.

Laura

Deming, Juran, Crosby;my three picks. and not necessarily in this order. Depends on the opportunity at hand.
Why? These three captured the market in their pursuit for quality and everyone else just seemed to fall in behind.
As for Deming and Juran in Japan. Sure they helped. but there were a hundred others that helped in the same way. Again Deming and Juran were more intent on establishing the pursuit of quality as a career, while others only seen this as a (un)necessary evil in this country. Until today, when quality appears to be at the forefront with everyone past and present jumping on the bandwagon.
As for economic successes in Japan; what transpired in the 50's was a rebuilding effort directed by the U.S., prior to the WWII Japan was emerging as a major player in the world economy.

I haven’t read “Mind and the World Order”, but I have a trusted friend who has. I will post him to see if he will oblige us with a book review.

I was rereading Bill Latzko’s letter I posted some time ago regarding Cringley’s article. I think it is important to point out that while Sarasohn and Protzman wrote a book containing ‘information’, they were teachers. How effective were they though?

Information is not knowledge. Teachers cannot make a student learn, they can inspire a student to learn. I think that while many can look back and compare information, what is difficult to convey is how well they presented the information. The success of Deming, Juran, and Feigenbaum perhaps resides with their ability to facilitate the learning process, and perhaps, reached an audience ready to begin the learning process. It may have had something to do with good timing and presentation.

Homer’s statement of, “Sometimes we build ships for a profit, sometimes for a loss. But we will always build good ships.” for me exemplifies Deming’s statement that some components in a System at some points may operate for a loss for the benefit of the system. Here is a case where the organization takes the occasional loss in order to maintain the overall AIM of the System and maintain constancy of purpose. Perhaps Constancy of Purpose isn’t sustained growth, but sustained existence.

Regards,

Kevin

Originally posted by Marc
We need a Book Review on "Mind and the World Order"... Any takers? :confused:

Weird.... I could have sworn I responded to this post - but I'm not seeing it. Anyway, I've ordered the book from Amazon and it should be here in a day or two. Provided it's not too "long haired" I should be able to get through it in a few days... :cool:

Cheers!!

--------

Aaarrrrgggghhhh.... just checked with Amazon - revised delivery date of October 24th. Sheeezzzz.... :(

Here is a link for the folks following this thread. It is a link to three papers on "Mind and the World Order": http://deming.ces.clemson.edu/pub/den/deming_peterson.htm

An interesting article on Sarasohn. Sounds to me like Dr. D. had some good ground laid.

Originally posted by Jim Wade
Re Deming

Here's the challenge; introduce me to a board-level line manager (not a quality director, biz excellence VP, or internal consultant) who can explain to me what the System of Profound Knowledge is all about and how his/her organisation has implemented it and made profit from it.

2 it remains of interest only to his acolytes (aka the Deming Lemmings) who can communicate effectively only with each other.I understand the challenge and join with you in the search for those that "walk the walk" as opposed to "talk the talk."

Incidentally, my Thesaurus doesn't recognize the word "Acolyte", but I can assume that you mean those that live in a dream world and can quote passages of his works by page number and talk you to death with his and their vision. I don't mean to demain the intellects who discuss the various Quality Gurus, this what the Topic/Thread is for, but I have always read the posts here and wondered "where is this magical land?" As my signature indicates, intellectuals talk to intellectuals and lots of time it's directed to their mirror. But, just like hearing cows that "Moo" in the fields, I don't have a clue as to what they mean. If I can't relate to it in my work experiences and never seen this stuff in use, it's nothing but talk. Something you might discuss in the Hamptons over an afternoon Martini while you watch the security guard hassling some moron walking the surf who just happened to have stumbled into your world. Great post and guaranteed to bring out the Lemmings. :ko: :smokin:

In the early ‘90s, Dr. Deming was asked if any organization was using his System of Profound Knowledge. To this he responded, “None that I know of.” This was his ‘purest’s answer’ as at the time, several organizations were engaged at some level with his work (Ford, GM, Xerox)

There are several organizations that do use hybrid versions of his SoPK worldwide. Three of the largest that come to my mind are Toyota, Marshall Industries, and Scania. All three are very successful. The folks at Hillerich & Bradsby (makers of the Louisville Slugger bats) also uses the Deming Method. I had the opportunity to speak with the CEO of H&B, who attended two of Dr. Deming’s 4-Day Seminars and began the transformation of his organization, and he couldn’t imagine doing it any other way.

The System of Profound Knowledge is as straightforward as it gets. It is founded on three tenets introduced to Dr. Deming in CI Lewis’ book “Mind and World Order.” Deming gives several references to the reader that this was where he learned it. Dr. Deming’s contribution was the addition of the fourth piece of his SoPK that was Psychology. Appreciation for a System, Theory of Knowledge, Theory of Variation, and Psychology make up the System of Profound Knowledge, but it is held together by something else Dr. Deming never named before his death. In his last years, Dr. Deming worked hard to convey his thoughts on this point, but until now, I have never read or heard a label for it. The best way I can describe it is with a single word – harmony. All four must be considered in every decision, meaning not one part was more important than the other. To be honest, it is a feeling I get that I cannot truly describe.

I believe that the lack of appreciation for Dr. Deming’s SoPK stems from the fact that most Western managers’ have little understanding of the elements of the Deming Method and lack the ‘feeling’ I cannot describe (no harmony in a world of Competition). It takes work to retrain the brain to think about things holistically (thank you Mr. Winton, where ever you are!!). I would suggest reading the Fifth Discipline to get Senge’s explanation on this. He does a far better job of putting this to words. As such, status quo of the prevailing paradigm continues in the West (inclusive of all of Europe). In the West, we like to break thing’s down into manageable bites even when the very act of breaking things down destroys the existing system. In a sense, we are dumbed down from an early age until we can no longer see things as being interrelated components. It needn’t be this way.

Society at this time demands ‘instant pudding’. The motto is: Live for the Moment. It isn’t only very shortsighted, it is selfish and destructive. Somehow, we have come to accept this as a ‘fact of life’. It certainly is true of this time, but not true of every instant in time. To believe that we cannot make a difference supports a mentality that we are victims of the environment. Who creates this environment? Why need it be this way? Wall Street and other stock markets the world over create this sense of false scarcity. We are GREEDY and as such, see PROFIT above all other value statements. In this setting, how can a method of management focused on Win-Win (Deming SoPK) instead of I Win-You lose compete (Command Control)? It struggles, but as Senge states, the change is already in progress. Hopefully we’ll live long enough to see it happen.

Your second point: if you base your very success as a CEO on the prevailing paradigm (ie. Western Management Theory), how willing will you be to change to something you know nothing of? Also, keep in mind the Change Model which suggests that only through Anxiety and Insight can change happen. Most CEOs in the West are either very Comfortable (no change possible) or are in Denial/Unaware (no change possible). Only when they feel urgency will they try to emerge through EMERGENCY! Otherwise, bury your head in the sand! They are suffering from what J.A. Barker terms Paradigm Paralysis. They cannot change. They are stuck. The reason us lemmings’ can speak to one another is that we have made the jump from Anxiety to Insight. We speak a very different language. The problem is that in order to communicate effectively, the receiver of the message must be in the Anxiety stage (open to suggestion). Because most CEOs are stuck in the Denial/Unaware stage, communication is almost impossible. So, having said this, what stage would you find yourselves in?

Regards,

Kevin

Originally posted by Kevin Mader
Only when they feel urgency will they try to emerge through EMERGENCY! Otherwise, bury your head in the sand! The reason us lemmings’ can speak to one another is that we have made the jump from Anxiety to Insight. We speak a very different language. The problem is that in order to communicate effectively, the receiver of the message must be in the Anxiety stage (open to suggestion). So, having said this, what stage would you find yourselves in?
Regards,
Kevin

As usual, good post Kevin. As to speaking and hearing "Lemming", no comprende!
As to your question, My stage is that I'm so head first in the sand that you need an Infra-red detector to spot the bottom of my feet! So, I guess the challenge issued will go unanswered until we become a good nicey nicey world. You're a young man, but I don't think you will see it in your lifetime. Later Guy:agree: :smokin:

Lemmings are those critters that run in packs over the edge of the cliff into the sea, as I recall. They appear blinded by something and are incapable of stopping themselves so they follow each other into the sea. I suppose Jim was eluding to the fact the Deming followers appear to being doing something similar. To a large degree, appearances support his contention.

Senge suggests that it will take 200-300 years before a change of this magnitude fully manifests itself. With the advent of Systems' Thinking (Shewhart, Deming, Juran, Taguchi, Ohno, Imai, Drucker, Lewis, Taylor, etc.) some 70+ years ago, we are well underway. We needn't see full manifestation either, but I would love to see us 80% of the way there before I'm old (hahaha)!

The evidence Jim is seeking is just on the early stages of ramping up. Great gains will be made over a short period, but this will probably happen some time after 2009 when the greatest boom in history ends and we begin to fall into decline. During a boom, there is less emphasis on Quality since almost anything will sell. Only when the economy begins to slump will Quality return to the forefront. Then, only those who adopt a Quality culture will survive the hard times (Depression bottoms out in 2023). It is a cyclical event and quality follows a similar rollercoaster. Those organizations that operate on a higher frequency and out of phase with other events will find leverage. Watch what happens in 7 short years. If we didn't like the recession we were just in, we'll really be miffed by what's ahead!!

Kev

Wow... I think Kevin just about covered it. I'll add my penny's worth...

I agree to Jim’s post – to a degree…with the following modifications:

1. Dr. Deming’s works have almost never been fully understood by those in Upper Management in the west.
So, how can it be utilized if it isn’t understood?

2. It remains of interest only to his acolytes (I wouldn’t go quite so far as to say Deming Lemmings; cute – but not accurate) who can communicate effectively only with each other.
Why is it we are percieved as only being able to communicate with each other? Because many of those we try and communicate with (upper management) refuse to hear what we have to say. It is alien an concept for them to understand (because it doesn't put profit above all else) or they are too self absorbed to learn anything new.

Now – my questions:

1. Just because most in upper management cannot understand Dr. Deming’s works, does that make them invalid? Does that apply to Einstein too? Just because a vast majority of people don’t understand the Theory of Relativity – does that make it invalid?

2. Just because most in upper management refuse to acknowledge that they don’t know everything, does that make Dr. Deming’s works incorrect? A great many Western managers have this inability to admit when they don’t know something. They seem to be under the delusion that they have to have the answer to every question, know everything about everything. And so, not truly knowing the principles of quality or the System of Profound Knowledge, the Western manager will poo-poo these as wasted efforts not capable of producing the desired effects or as being a complete failure if they remotely dabbled in quality somewhere along the way. They also propagate this situation because western management has this habit of hiring and surrounding themselves with those who are like themselves. If a manager is a myopic megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur… guess who he/she is going to hire? Is that conducive to broadening one’s horizons with new thoughts and theories that run counter what everything that one has learned in college or had shoved down their throats by some preceding megalomaniac? Will this manager even entertain the possibility that he/she might be wrong and that there are theories out there that work? Will this manager admit that he/she doesn’t know everything?

3. Just because most in upper management fails to see the truth of Dr. Deming’s works, does that make them false?

Most western managers have deluded themselves for countless years with the false idea that they know how to run their businesses, that they have all the answers, that they know best. Just because they haven’t driven their businesses into the ground does not mean they know how to run them. Turning a profit and turning the kind of profit the business is capable of, are two different animals. Western managers are so focused on the next quarter they cannot see the damage being done 2 or 3 years down the road. When the inevitable happens, they exclaim that it must be the people, or the economy, or foreign trade, or foreign dumping, or… or… or… It can’t possibly be themselves who are responsible for the poor performance of the organization. Unfortunately, they are victims of their own blindness to the archetypes that cause the problems.

Why aren’t more quality conscious individuals in positions of significant responsibility (i.e. CEO, COO, Exec VP, etc.)? See #2 above. My own belief is that one of two things happen somewhere along the way for people in quality: 1) They get fed-up and get out of the quality game; 2) they get fed-up and give in to the insanity, finally becoming promotable, and once they have sacrificed their beliefs, have been promoted.

Sorry Jim, I can’t introduce you to a board-level line manager who has the foggiest notion about Dr. Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge. It isn't because the ones I know haven't been exposed to it...

Ducks in a row – a CEO with layers of yes people.

We are obligated to challenge assumptions. It is how we refine theory and get to the right answers. There was a time when Command Control was the right answer. It has long since passed, but we continue to give life to the failing paradigm. This is for reasons noted in my above post.

It takes great courage to hire people of contrary positions to your own and great understanding to work with these people. However, there isn’t a better way I know of to challenge assumptions. The ‘bossman’ cannot be beyond reproach as noted in Mike’s post. Once this is the case, the game is over. Nobody wins, everyone loses. How long until the game plays out? They game lasts longer while the market is strong. Once that is gone, the end comes quickly.

A point: Mike’s comment regarding actions taken now manifesting themselves sometime in the future should be carefully examined. When we are stuck looking no further than the Quarterly Report, how will we anticipate the future long-term outcome? Not only do we tear apart things into small pieces when we should not, we tend to look no further than the next step when we ask ourselves the question, “What’s next?” This is really sad to me. No acknowledged accountability, thus nullifying any risk, or so is assumed…

Kev

Originally posted by Michael T
Wow... I think Kevin just about covered it. I'll add my penny's worth...

I agree to Jim’s post – to a degree…with the following modifications:
Now – my questions:
1. Just because most in upper management cannot understand Dr. Deming’s works, does that make them invalid?
2. Just because most in upper management refuse to acknowledge that they don’t know everything, does that make Dr. Deming’s works incorrect?
3. Just because most in upper management fails to see the truth of Dr. Deming’s works, does that make them false?

Sorry Jim, I can’t introduce you to a board-level line manager who has the foggiest notion about Dr. Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge. It isn't because the ones I know haven't been exposed to it...

1. I don't think I saw that mentioned.
2. ditto
3. ditto

The last part: Could it be that being exposed to it doesn't necessarily mean that you understand of believe in it? Jim's post, I'm pretty sure, was designed to bring about this discussion because he knows the outcome already. I forget which Quality icon passed away recently, but I was struck by an article that said hundreds of his followers stood up at their place of employment and offered a moment of silence. (And I'll add this-probably with tears streaming down their egotistical cheeks). It must be a frustrating experience to work in a place and watch all this ineptitude going on all around them and not being able to do anything about it except to collect a paycheck. Blindly following teachings and ignoring the positive things going on around them does reek of a cult. I enjoy reading the posts in this Topic, even though I know it's a fantasy world. Life isn't fair, businesses aren't fair, but it's what we have to deal with every day. Until you start your own businesses and can control who gets hired, there is very little you can do, personally. It looks good in print, though. I might also add that when someone doesn't understand or agree with the writings of a particular author, it allows the followers of his teachings the opportunity to demonstrate their intellectual prowess by speaking in parables intended to denegrate the unfortunate intellectually challenged people who just can't see the wisdom of their ways. Kind of like a mutual admiration society. Well, that's my three cents.

I'm not sure which icon recently passed away either - I think it was Crosby. I never read anything about people standing for a moment of silence, but find it a bit melodramatic. I'm sorry to see a noted quality professional pass away, but there are others who will undoubtedly take his place.

Yes, it can be frustrating to work in a place where all around you are people who keep asking the same questions over and over, and yet, not hearing a suggested answer when offered - or discarding an answer because it won't yield immediate results. Or, better yet, being told, "That's a great idea - we're not ready for it yet." :frust:

My questions were not mentioned in Jim's post - but posed as questions to further the discussion.

I quite agree - life, business, etc. they aren't fair. It doesn't mean I roll over and accept it. I fight back the best I am able. When I have no more fight left, or have simply had enough - then I'll go my own way. Until then.... :bigwave: :smokin:

Wow

I cannot even come close to matching the posts from Kevin and Michael but agree whole heartedly with what they say.

I havent studied Demings work in any great depth, and was very cynical of what he might be saying from the snippets of language I heard used in connection with him i.e. system of profound knowledge - a very pompous title.

But having taken the trouble to read a couple of his books I rapidly came to two conclusions 1) what he said was very true 2) what he said was very simple.

With regard to point 2) I would say that any CEO or senior manager who cannot understand what Deming taught (if they bothered to take the time) does not have the intelligence to cleanthe toilets, let alone run the organisation.

Which probably brings us around to answering the question on why quality management in the western world is in such a poor state.

Clearly energy has given up trying already.

Originally posted by M Greenaway
Wow
I cannot even come close to matching the posts from Kevin and Michael but agree whole heartedly with what they say.
Which probably brings us around to answering the question on why quality management in the western world is in such a poor state.

Clearly energy has given up trying already.

You said it. These guys can really write!:rolleyes: As for you, young Mucka, toilet talk is the inability of the weak mind to express itself:p

Me give up? Not exactly. I'm a realist and don't have the time worry about things I can't change. I cannot afford the lofty dreams and ideals of the younger generation. The new breed of Quality professionals, if I may be so bold. My main concern is to get through the day with my hide intact. I look forward to the day that I can kick back in my tiny fishing craft and read some of these great works, in between reeling them in and popping a few brews. Then, if I'm in the mood to take something home that day, I'll have something to wrap them in!:biglaugh: :truce: :smokin:

Jim

Yes you are right again, as I kind of suggested in my post the language is I believe very off putting and is possibly why people have not taken it up on any large scale.

But it really is worth putting the glossy words aside for a moment and actually reading what he says - have you honestly done this ?

I think his influence has spread far and wide - even into ISO9001:2000. In the early drafts of the standard they even had the PDCA cycle shown on the process model of the standard (yes I know he nicked the idea from Shewhart) !

Unfortunately his most powerful message - the understanding of processes and variation - is still very sadly missing from the ISO9000 standards.

Originally posted by Jim Wade
Couple of thoughts:

ONE
I am willing to admit in my ignorance that Deming's stuff could well be the tops: valid, correct and true.

But could it be that it just ain't useful? And that's why managers don't take it up?


TWO
A constant theme from those who promote Deming is "they won't listen, they don't understand, they refuse to hear what we have to say". We have seen some of that in posts above.

An early lesson I learned was about communication: if you fail to communicate effectively with someone maybe - just maybe - it's your fault, not theirs.

Just thoughts.

rgds Jim

Agreed - it could be that management doesn't believe it is useful. It remains to be seen whether they believe that because they have read and understood SoPK and have found it wanting, or if they are dismissing it out of turn as just another fad. Any bets on what the majority is?

Okay - perhaps I'm not communicating well enough to get my point across. Perhaps I'm not speaking the right language. I just don't know how to make it any clearer than: poor quality = pissed off customers = loss of revenues = less work = more layoffs = pissed off employees = more reworks = higher cost and poor quality and late shipments = pissed off customers = etc., etc., etc. :confused:

Originally posted by Energy
I'm a realist and don't have the time worry about things I can't change. I cannot afford the lofty dreams and ideals of the younger generation. The new breed of Quality professionals, if I may be so bold. My main concern is to get through the day with my hide intact. I look forward to the day that I can kick back in my tiny fishing craft and read some of these great works, in between reeling them in and popping a few brews. Then, if I'm in the mood to take something home that day, I'll have something to wrap them in!

Ahhhh Energy - you are so eloquent in your feelings for us young bucks and our pipe dreams... :biglaugh: Perhaps one day we'll expound on some of our more lofty dreams and ideals in the printed medium just so you can have something in which to wrap your catch... :vfunny: :ko:

Michael T.

I have no problem understanding you, Kevin and even Martin G..
In fact I'm envious of the displayed mastery of the English language. If I wrote that good in my younger days, I might even have had my own Quality Website:thedeal: :ko: :smokin:

Originally posted by energy
Michael T.

I have no problem understanding you, Kevin and even Martin G..
In fact I'm envious of the displayed mastery of the English language. If I wrote that good in my younger days, I might even have had my own Quality Website:thedeal: :ko: :smokin:

Energy...

Methinks you think too lightly of your own abilities. Your mastery of the English language is no mean thing... ;) I do so enjoy your repartee :p

Sorry - that had to be done... I can't help it. I'm married to an English Ph.D. :smokin:

Energy

I particularly enjoy the use of sarcasm in your posts - I really do look forward to them as they are absolutely priceless ;)

Originally posted by M Greenaway
Energy

I particularly enjoy the use of sarcasm in your posts - I really do look forward to them as they are absolutely priceless ;)

Well, if that ain't a case of the pot calling the kettle green. What you see is just me. I'm just a sarcastic S.O.B? Look inward, my friend from across across the pond. What you see, and apparently enjoy, is an older version of yourself after you have watched the fads come and go. But, you may have it right. My wife agrees with you!:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

I know energy, I know.

Thats whats scary :vfunny:

:agree: