Looking for honest opinions.

I just went through my first surveillance audit all by myself. We were a QS-9000 TE company moving towards ISO-9001:2000 registration in October. Anyway, the auditor gave me some great help. I still had a hard time letting go of the burden that QS brings. I was still focused a little to much at meeting the elements, not directly looking at the process approach. He stated that we could pass an ISO audit now, not a problem. However our Process map was very minimally compliant. So, I embarked on a journey of improving this system. I am in the process now of doing turtle diagrams for my key processes. Being that my company won't send me to any training, I have been reading on this site and searching the net to find out how to do this.

I am attaching my first turtle diagram for our Contract Review process. I would truly appreciate any comments / constructive criticism etc. as I have nobody here to help me and can't pay a consultant or take a training class (due to our every decreasing budgets).

Thanks,
M

Michelle,
Yours looks very similar to ours which was approved by the TS16949 Lead Auditor during our conformance audit. I will attach it FYI

Looking for honest opinions.

I am attaching my first turtle diagram for our Contract Review process. I would truly appreciate any comments / constructive criticism etc. as I have nobody here to help me and can't pay a consultant or take a training class (due to our every decreasing budgets).

Thanks,
M
Just a little tip, not meant as criticism:
Please make an effort to proofread the text in the boxes in your diagram.
I saw two typographical errors without searching. The net effect to some viewers would be to reduce your credibility because of seeming "inattention to detail." We here in the Cove understand you are struggling with the "concepts" and not the spelling at this point, but your struggle (the one we all share) is really to make all that effort transparent to the viewer. You want to convey the impression that you have complete mastery and understanding of the processes under your purview - you can't afford to let the viewer see "the man behind the curtain." [Wizard of Oz reference]

We're behind the curtain with you and we want you to succeed!

Wow! Michelle has described my situation perfectly!! I am in the same boat. I have not created the flowcharts, turtles for everything yet. I'm struggling too.
I am going to have a ton of questions next week in my ISO 9001 pre-audit!!!

Wow! Michelle has described my situation perfectly!! I am in the same boat. I have not created the flowcharts, turtles for everything yet. I'm struggling too.
I am going to have a ton of questions next week in my ISO 9001 pre-audit!!!

Stop and think high level first.
I'll take the risk of getting more flak but for both of the attached process maps the process is documented at the level of detail below what it should. The idea of the turtle map is to identify areas of the process but if you don't have the right process ...

RFQ on its own is of no benefit unless it contributes to winning business.
I'd recommend you start at the high level process, say "Winning orders from customers" (I always try to use words that are non specific but generally understood). Producing quotes is one stage of that process, there are others like marketing, PR etc.
If you need to you can document elements of the process and can use the turtle for that.

Stop and think high level first.
I'll take the risk of getting more flak but for both of the attached process maps the process is documented at the level of detail below what it should. The idea of the turtle map is to identify areas of the process but if you don't have the right process ...

RFQ on its own is of no benefit unless it contributes to winning business.
I'd recommend you start at the high level process, say "Winning orders from customers" (I always try to use words that are non specific but generally understood). Producing quotes is one stage of that process, there are others like marketing, PR etc.
If you need to you can document elements of the process and can use the turtle for that.
I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure. The OP described a contract review process, not RFQ--they're two related but different things--and contract review really does need to be addressed, more or less in the way that Michelle is doing it. Now--having a wider view--that of getting more orders--indeed should be the overarching raison d’être, and as such should be the place to start, so that the need to win orders informs the rest of the related processes.

I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure. There is always a first time!

The OP described a contract review process, not RFQ--they're two related but different things--and contract review really does need to be addressed, more or less in the way that Michelle is doing it. Sort of agreed. Both RFQ and Contract Review are stages in the overall process that I have termed "Winning orders from customers". The point I was trying to make is start at the high level and then, if need be. document the lower levels.

Dyslexic fingers aside, our Contract review turtle was created to describe how our process used, and augmented by a procedure.
The TS16949 lead assessor did not have a problem with it during the conformance audit. Not saying it can’t be better, but works for us.

Looking for honest opinions. I am attaching my first turtle diagram for our Contract Review process. I would truly appreciate any comments / constructive criticism etc. as I have nobody here to help me and can't pay a consultant or take a training class (due to our every decreasing budgets). Thanks,M

I hope this is constructive. It was meant to offer some other ideas for you to consider. I reread it and it seems preachy, it was not meant to be. You are doing great!

I like this turtle a lot. You are on the right track

At first I really resisted turtles (not invented by me). But now I love ‘em. The main unexpected use I find is for training and explaining. The whole job on one page – nothing is easier.

Here are some things we did with our turtles. All these are ideas I got from the Cove or Google. There may even be one idea I thought of (but I doubt it). The following is offered for your consideration.


1) Body – We have added the process owner (by title) in the box with the process name. This is the person who can cause the process to be changed.

It is fun to do, and when you are done, count them up. The Quality Department should own less than 20%. That will raise some eyebrows for sure.

2) Metrics Turtle Leg

We added to more sub boxes to this leg, Corrective Action and Continuous Improvement. Ask how are the metrics, if OK do CI, if not Initiate CA.

We also approached this a bit different. Our metrics are the key business indicators that are used in planning and reviewed in management review. They are specific, numeric, and trended. Nothing vague at all. These are all graphs of numbers for us.

Sales has 100% on time quotations, and we are desperately looking for other Sales metrics (any ideas?).

3) Skills leg

Again we are a bit more specific. We link to job descriptions and a Position Skills database for the people performing the process

4) Supplier and Customer

We have added boxes for supplier on the left and customer on the right to show linkages. It demonstrates a process flow mindset. Really more meaningful in manufacturing processes than here. It is designed to make people think about who gives them stuff and who they give stuff to. The circle of life and all that.

5) With What Leg

We limit this to equipment (computers, machines). We also added a Maintenance sub box here to link to PM and spare parts and all that.

6) Linked processes

We did not include linked processes. We had them at first but got in endless arguments that everything was linked to everything so we deleted it as too confusing.

So instead, we have a top level process map that shows all the linkages and interactions of these processes. It has been OK so far with the registrar.

A lot of our legs are really “pointers to somewhere else. The skill leg says “see database”. The metrics leg says “see metrics database”, etc. This saves a lot of time updating when things change.


Caution hobby horse about to be ridden!


The first warning sign for me of trouble is that I still see the elements of ISO named as processes.

5.4 Quality Objectives
7.1 Planning of Product Realization
7.2 Customer Related Processes
5.1 Management Commitment
5.2 Customer Focus
6 Resource Management

For ISO or TS the idea is to map your business processes and then and only then see if what you created meets the requirements.

Do you really have a core business process called Resource Management? Or do you have Human Resources, and Business Planning?

Do your designers call themselves “realizers?” Really? I hate, hate, hate that word in the standard. We have design engineers, always have, always will. We have a process called Design. You betcha it meets the requirements of TS16949. And it is NOT numbered 7.1.

Our registrar may be the exception but if he sees ISO clause numbering he pretty much knows the company “didn’t get it.”

Our registrar failed our sister plant for this and this alone within the first 10 minutes of his audit. It was quite a thing to see!

They had paid big serious money to a consultant who built a system using the ISO clauses and changing the word supplier to “company”.

OK, I’m off the Hobby horse again.

Overall, it is excellent. You are definitely on the right track. Just be sure your processes are defined how the business runs and not to suit ISO or a registrar.

:thanks: Thank you everyone so far for your constructive comments. Yesterday when I posted this thread I was at a "dead end" sort to speak. I have read everyone's comments, and I think I am finally starting to get it!

Caster: Thank you for stating about the ISO clauses called out in my turtle diagram. I see exactly what you are saying. I just can't let go.......... I have this problem in other parts of my life too (LOL).

I see that these turtles can be very informative and useful! I never thought that they were until I actually did a couple processes today. My only problem is that I think that my "processes" are grouped more by "departments". However, I am still working on updating these again. I think I learn something new each time I re-do them!

I am going to work on it a little more and will post a couple of them again probably by tomorrow and see what you guys think. If you don't mind taking a look, I will appreciate it. I hope I am getting it!

Thanks again for everyone's input.
Michelle

.... My only problem is that I think that my "processes" are grouped more by "departments".....Michelle

Well they could be.

We went through agonizing meetings over whether something was a process OR department OR activity OR function OR aaarrgh!

In particular I never sorted out activity vs. process.

In the end we just asked our registar. He said as long as we had thought abought it and were happy with the way we set it up, and were prepared to defend it, ALL he could check is that our business actually ran the way we said and that would be that!

He would like to see COPs, MOPs, ans SOPs but if we went another way - he would be even happier.

So we have some processes that are departments and some that span several departments.

Have you seen this? http://www.terrapeneintl.com/support/index.htm

Plexus popularized the turtle. I suggest you download the technical info...lots of good ideas and explanations to adopt. We didn't buy the software, but I thank them for the good information freely shared.

:thanks: Thank you everyone so far for your constructive comments. Yesterday when I posted this thread I was at a "dead end" sort to speak. I have read everyone's comments, and I think I am finally starting to get it!

Caster: Thank you for stating about the ISO clauses called out in my turtle diagram. I see exactly what you are saying. I just can't let go.......... I have this problem in other parts of my life too (LOL).

<cut>
Michelle


One of the areas that I see a lot of confusion over is that ISO 9001:1994 (and therefore QS-9000, too) had some elements that really did spell out business process requirements (like contract review); but others specified conditions on how other processes were to be done.

(For example, old 4.10 - Inspection - roughly corresponded to a work process, while old 4.11 - calibration - included both a work process- calibrating devices -- but also conditions that affected 4.10, namely that any inspections were to be done with calibrated devices.) So, some of your processes may still reflect ISO clauses - e.g. requirements review, preventive maintenance, internal audits... while others will not really match to a process (e.g. most of the "management commitment" requirements.) Meanwhile, the most important processes for your company - that is, finding customers, determining their requirements, making a product or service, and delivering same-- need to have center stage. So be careful.

I encourage my clients to start with those key processes of finding customers, developing product/service - sweat over these. (You are already on the right track by starting with contract review.) Don't anguish over the smaller, support processes.

Regards,

Brad

I still have to read through all the info that Casper supplied (THANKS! Great info, I am doing to read it over the weekend) and B supplied, but I promised you guys an updated turtle of what I am doing.

So, attached is a very rough draft of this. It's not always in format, but the basic information is there.

Am I getting better or worse? Thank you for your honesty. I have to nail this down before my audit and I am looking forward to hearing all of your responses. So far, they have been extremely helpful to me.

Have a great weekend everyone!
Michelle

Why I cannot open no one from those attached diagrammms ?
Help.
Thank you
Alena

Why I cannot open no one from those attached diagrams ?
Help.
Thank you
Alena

Hello Alena and welcome to The Cove! :bigwave: :bigwave:

Turtle diagrams? Try to click on this (http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist.php?mode=allfiles&sortby=filename&pageamt=2&criteria=turtle). See if it works for you.

Stijloor.

Also check on the 'version' of your excel.

Herewith another turtle template that is commonly used which also prompts to identify objectives, risks, indicators and interfaces.

Hello,
Thank you all for willingness . :thanx:
Alena

Hi M,

Your contract review process turtle diagram is very thorough. How are these requirements then filtered down into a easy to understand format for the management team to whom will be carrying out the contract review?

Tallguynev