What exactly is a material cert? I am in the automotive business and we deal alot with fabrics and vinyls. I always assumed that a document that is included from one of my suppliers in there ppap - it lists all the testing data for a particular material. I always assumed that this was the material cert. But is it simply just testing data? Can anyone give some insight to this subject? Thanks in advance. :confused:

Welcome to the cove

What exactly is a material cert? I am in the automotive business and we deal alot with fabrics and vinyls. I always assumed that a document that is included from one of my suppliers in there ppap - it lists all the testing data for a particular material. I always assumed that this was the material cert. But is it simply just testing data? Can anyone give some insight to this subject? Thanks in advance. :confused:

There is in the PPAP package a requirement for Material test records and a form for this. If there are tests called out, then these must be tested. Normally a supliers certificate is acceptable and with standard material this is the usually course.

What does the suppliers certificate look like? Or what kind of title should the document have may be a better question??

What exactly is a material cert? I am in the automotive business and we deal alot with fabrics and vinyls. I always assumed that a document that is included from one of my suppliers in there ppap - it lists all the testing data for a particular material. I always assumed that this was the material cert. But is it simply just testing data? Can anyone give some insight to this subject? Thanks in advance. :confused:
Welcome to the Cove:D

Howard's response is correct, and raises an interesting point. The 3rd Edition AIAG PPAP manual (I haven't seen the 4th Edition yet) describes requirements for material test reports. (page 5) Interestingly, many, if not most, of the documents submitted in PPAP packages don't conform to the criteria given there, especially the three bullet points:
The material test report shall indicate the:

design record change level of the parts tested and the number, date and change level of the specifications to which the part was tested;
date on which testing took place;
material subcontractor's name and, when required by your customer, their supplier code number for the material from the customer-approved subcontractor list.
It's become standard practice to accept a material subcontractor's "cert" in lieu of the specific information required by the standard in cases where a basic material type such as steel or plastic resin is involved. In most cases, the customer is interested in seeing evidence that the specified material was used, and that the material subcontractor "certifies" that the material meets the standard(s) specified.

I once had an interesting discussion with a registrar's auditor on this subject. Upon discovering that the material test report in an approved PPAP package didn't meet the PPAP manual criteria, the auditor issued a minor NC. I opined that since the customer had approved the PPAP package, thereby at least tacitly approving everything in it, that it would be superfluous and wasteful for me to provide more information than what was necessart to make the customer happy, or to have some sort of waiver from the customer on file. The auditor countered that his job was to compare the documentation to the requirements of the standard, or to customer-specific requirements if they were documented. In other words, objective evidence of customer satisfaction is trumped by a "need" for superflous documentation. Unfortunately, I was prevented by my boss from pursuing the protest, and wound up writing a mickey-mouse CA to address the issue, and almost everyone was happy.

JSW05, thank you very much for your post on the subject. I understand what you are saying totally. But I am trying to find out what the difference is, or what a cert looks like. For example, I have a document that came out of one of my supplier ppaps for material (fabric). This document list the material type, and all the testing that was done on the material. I.E. weight, guage, tensile strength, elongation at break, tongue tear, adhesion, aged cold crack, haze, etc. etc. This is basically a labratory report. Would this document be considered a material cert, or just testing data? This is my dilemma. :frust:

JSW05, thank you very much for your post on the subject. I understand what you are saying totally. But I am trying to find out what the difference is, or what a cert looks like. For example, I have a document that came out of one of my supplier ppaps for material (fabric). This document list the material type, and all the testing that was done on the material. I.E. weight, guage, tensile strength, elongation at break, tongue tear, adhesion, aged cold crack, haze, etc. etc. This is basically a labratory report. Would this document be considered a material cert, or just testing data? This is my dilemma. :frust:
It appears that the document is a test report, which is what you want for PPAP purposes. In some instances, the terms "material certification" and "material test report" are considered synonymous, but ususally incorrectly. What you don't want is a document that says, "We certify that the material supplied meets the relevant specifications" without telling what the relevant specifications are, or offering objective evidence (actual test results) of having met them. In other words, if there are no actual test results, or even evidence that testing has been done, then it's essentially worthless.

What you have is certainly a material test report.
If there is no special demand on the drawing then you can test what you want.
As Jim said if you bought Delrin Plastic then a certificate from Dupont is usually accepted.
If your supplier submitted it to you and you accepted on the base of it then it should be ok.
In the PPAP book there is a copy and there should be a copy in this file http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3287

So basically, what I have is a material cert? It just happens to list test results. If this is the case, then it is what I assumed all along. Howard, I have seen the dupont cert that you are referring to. I once sent it in my ppap to a customer. They questioned that cert and wanted a copy of there lab accredidation? Go figure. :D

So basically, what I have is a material cert? It just happens to list test results.
Howard and I both said that what you have is probably a material test report, not a "cert" (as I defined it earlier.)
If this is the case, then it is what I assumed all along. Howard, I have seen the dupont cert that you are referring to. I once sent it in my ppap to a customer. They questioned that cert and wanted a copy of there lab accredidation? Go figure. http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/biggrin-a1.gif
What do you mean, "they questioned the cert"? Did they question it only because evidence of lab accreditation was missing? That's a different PPAP element--Qualified Laboratory Documentation. You're supposed to show evidence that the lab(s) performing testing are qualified to do so. The required documentation includes a certificate of accreditation and a scope of accreditation.

JW, that is exactly why they ??? the cert, I didn't have a lab accredidation to include in the ppap I sent to customer.

Yes I know you both said what I had was a test report. It still doesn't tell me what the difference is between that and a cert. Should I have another document in a supplier ppap that says "material cert" ? The company I work for doesn't do any material testing, we are an end user of the material supplied to us. Therefore we wouldn't be doing any testing of the material. What am I missing here? Can anyone provide a copy of a material cert so I can see what it looks like?

As a side note, the link that was posted earlier had a material cert in it, but it also included a place for testing results. I guess you could say I am confused. :D

JW, that is exactly why they ??? the cert, I didn't have a lab accredidation to include in the ppap I sent to customer.
Then they weren't questioning the "cert"; they were questioning the lack of accreditation evidence--they're two separate PPAP elements.

Yes I know you both said what I had was a test report. It still doesn't tell me what the difference is between that and a cert.
Here's what I said in an earlier post:
It appears that the document is a test report, which is what you want for PPAP purposes. In some instances, the terms "material certification" and "material test report" are considered synonymous, but ususally incorrectly. What you don't want is a document that says, "We certify that the material supplied meets the relevant specifications" without telling what the relevant specifications are, or offering objective evidence (actual test results) of having met them. In other words, if there are no actual test results, or even evidence that testing has been done, then it's essentially worthless.
I explained that A) what you described is a material test report; B) it's what's required for PPAP; C) that "cert" and "material test report" are sometimes used interchangeably, but a "cert" (aka "certificate of compliance" or "certificate of conformance") might not include test data, in which case it's worthless.

Should I have another document in a supplier ppap that says "material cert" ? There is nothing in the standard PPAP requirements that calls for any kind of "cert." Look at the requirement from page 5 of the 3rd Edition PPAP manual):
The supplier shall have records of material...test results for tests specified on the design record or Control Plan. (Emphasis added)
See, no mention of any "certs."
Can anyone provide a copy of a material cert so I can see what it looks like? Forget about material certs. You want material test reports, but remember, material test reports are sometimes labeled and referred to as material certifications. It's the presence of test data that makes the difference, not what the document is called.

JW, thank you so much. I think I got it now. I just misunderstood your previous posts ! Shame on me :bonk: Thanks again.

JW, thank you so much. I think I got it now. I just misunderstood your previous posts ! Shame on me :bonk: Thanks again.
You're welcome, Scott:agree1:

At the risk of raising hackles at this late date in the thread, let me suggest the concept of what a customer means by a "material cert" is an issue which should have been brought up in Contract Review with the customer before accepting the order. That is the time to ask questions. Do not feel that you will embarrass yourself by asking such seeming "basic questions." An overwhelming majority of the purchasing clerks who check off the box on a purchase order for "material certs" have no idea what they are and wouldn't recognize one if they saw it.

The earlier in the entire process you clear up all the "niggling" [shout out to Jim] questions, the sooner you can make arrangements with the material supplier to give you exactly what the customer needs to satisfy him.

In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert. In dealing with metals, especially, it is often necessary to maintain traceability to a specific "heat" of material. As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.

:topic: I bought a "brand name" stainless steel whistling teakettle in a supermarket promotion last year. The heatproof shield on the removable whistle cap was held on to the stainless steel cap with a rivet. Shame on the manufacturer - the rivet is unplated plain steel and rusted through in 3 months. I drilled it out and replaced with an appropriate fastener, but the lack of attention to detail boggles the mind. I guess that manufacturer didn't think of everything when he outsourced the cap manufacture to an offshore company. Certainly, a "material cert" was not part of the documentation he required.

At the risk of raising hackles at this late date in the thread, let me suggest the concept of what a customer means by a "material cert" is an issue which should have been brought up in Contract Review with the customer before accepting the order. That is the time to ask questions. Do not feel that you will embarrass yourself by asking such seeming "basic questions." An overwhelming majority of the purchasing clerks who check off the box on a purchase order for "material certs" have no idea what they are and wouldn't recognize one if they saw it.

The earlier in the entire process you clear up all the "niggling" [shout out to Jim] questions, the sooner you can make arrangements with the material supplier to give you exactly what the customer needs to satisfy him.
All good advice, but with PPAP, the requirements are spelled out, and hardly anyone pays any attention to them. The automotive biz is different from mainline stuff, and your observation regarding purchasing clerks is a bit off the mark I think; in automotive situations it's usually the purchasing people who are responsible for obtaining the correct material documentation, and if they're not familiar with the requirements, they get familiar in a hurry.


In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert.This is extreme, of course, and the strategy should of course be to develop reliable material suppliers whose documentation and testing can be trusted.
As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.
Not if you're going to have the material independently tested anywayhttp://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/biggrin-a1.gif .

...the manufacturer didn't think of everything when he outsourced the cap manufacture to an offshore company. Certainly, a "material cert" was not part of the documentation he required.
Of course, the material might have been exactly what the purchaser specified, in which case the material cert would only provide objective evidence of a poor decision.

In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert. This is extreme, of course, and the strategy should of course be to develop reliable material suppliers whose documentation and testing can be trusted. As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.
Not if you're going to have the material independently tested anywayhttp://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/biggrin-a1.gif .
The key word, of course, was "crucial" - sometimes we were dealing with bone screws and other things that went inside human bodies.

In terms of "coupons" and independent testing:
Our business dealt with products for many applications which had life, health, safety implications, and identification and traceability were high priority items with our customers. We did not have EVERY coupon tested, but we did keep a coupon of the raw material with the Quality records of every job in the event a question would ever arise. Thankfully, none did, but then, I come from a long line of "measure twice, cut once" folk!http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

In literally hundreds of "redundant analyses" of materials, I can remember only two instances where the independent analysis did not concur (within reasonable tolerances) with the cert supplied with the material.

Tracing back in one case, we discovered that "heats" of the material had been mixed, resulting in nearly an entire "grade" difference between what we ordered and what we received.

The other case was more arcane and had to do with physical properties of the material related to the heat-treating, hardening, and tempering of the material - stuff on which metallurgists dote and the rest of us look for margaritas.

The first case was a routine redundant check. The second case was sent out for analysis on the second day after we began production because our machine operator said, "Something's not right. I don't like the way this stuff runs."

Ahhh, the old "measure twice, cut once, measure once, cut twice." Still, one of the best quality policies...

Hi there...I was wondering whether there is a standard document explaining the minimum contents of a material test report (Mill Certificate)? Something like EN 10204 3.1B but in ISO for Aluminium products.

I don't know specifically for alumium but if you go to http://www.iso.ch and search standards for Aluminium there are plenty of references.
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Hi there...I was wondering whether there is a standard document explaining the minimum contents of a material test report (Mill Certificate)? Something like EN 10204 3.1B but in ISO for Aluminium products.Many of attached standard explaining the minimum contest of a material test reports for Mill certificate
ISO IEC 17025:2005 is more general
5.10.3 Test reports
5.10.3.1 ..... test reports shall, where necessary for the interpretation of the test results, include the
following:
a) deviations from, additions to, or exclusions from the test method, and information on specific test conditions, such as environmental
conditions;
b) where relevant, a statement of compliance/non-compliance with requirements and/or specifications;
c) where applicable, a statement on the estimated uncertainty of measurement; information on uncertainty is needed in test reports when it is
relevant to the validity or application of the test results, when a client’s instruction so requires, or when the uncertainty affects compliance to a
specification limit;
d) where appropriate and needed, opinions and interpretations (see 5.10.5);
e) additional information which may be required by specific methods, clients or groups of clients.
5.10.3.2 In addition to the requirements listed in 5.10.2 and 5.10.3.1, test reports containing the results of sampling shall include the following,
where necessary for the interpretation of test results:
a) the date of sampling;
b) unambiguous identification of the substance, material or product sampled (including the name of the manufacturer, the model or type of
designation and serial numbers as appropriate);
c) the location of sampling, including any diagrams, sketches or photographs;
d) a reference to the sampling plan and procedures used;
e) details of any environmental conditions during sampling that may affect the interpretation of the test results;
f) any standard or other specification for the sampling method or procedure, and deviations, additions to or exclusions from the specification
concerned.By