What is the difference between an audit plan and an audit schedule?

TS requires a plan but says nothing about a schedule.

Thanks!

What is the difference between an audit plan and an audit schedule?

TS requires a plan but says nothing about a schedule.

Thanks!
The audit plan describes the scope of the audit, the details as to address, sites, people, criteria, customers, etc. It ahs to be approved by the client as well.The schedule is a breakdown of what processes get audited when and by which auditor, by day and times. The schedule is considered part of the audit plan, even if it is a separate document.

There can be two types of schedules. One is a yearly schedule (see 8.2.2.4), and one is a daily schedule (at 10:00 we will be auditing the purchasing process, at 11:30 we will be auditing receiving inspection, etc). Audit plans can also be developed for the overall program (yearly) and the individual audit. Hopefully, your procedure will spell out the differences and usages. This is why it might be useful to have two procedures. One for audit program administration, and for individual audit conduct.

There can be two types of schedules. One is a yearly schedule (see 8.2.2.4), and one is a daily schedule (at 10:00 we will be auditing the purchasing process, at 11:30 we will be auditing receiving inspection, etc). Audit plans can also be developed for the overall program (yearly) and the individual audit. Hopefully, your procedure will spell out the differences and usages. This is why it might be useful to have two procedures. One for audit program administration, and for individual audit conduct.


Dave, in my experience, the first schedule is essential, while the second would quickly get ammended as the audit progresses. When an apparent problem is found, it is more important, IMHO, to follow where the trail leads than to rigidly adhere to a schedule. Our external auditor has even left out items from the first type of schedule (for the next visit) to concentrate more on an area that might need some help.

My audit schedule is a listing of all the processes I intend to audit throughout the year.

My audit plan is a breakdown of the audit for each process listed on the audit schedule.

:cool: Have A Great Day :cool:

Bumping this back up to the top - I have another question (maybe I'm just not getting it).

We recently had a consultant in to look at our system prior to our 3rd party audit. He just sent us his report, which says:

8.2.2.4 “Internal audits…. and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.”

If you have a plan, I don’t remember seeing it. I did see an audit schedule….


Our audit schedule is a matrix showing each process to be audited, what month it is to be audited, and which clauses apply to that process (and therefore will be addressed in the audit).

Is this not a sufficient annual plan? The standard does not specify what must be included in the annual plan, as far as I can tell.

You are correct in that the TS does not specify what must be in the plan. If your schedule meets all of the requirements in 8.2.2.4 including shifts, activities, etc., and if this is your "plan", then there probably should be no problem. You might also want to look at the language in 8.2.2 about what an audit program needs to entail. You may find your "plan" is really a combination of the schedule and the procedure.

Some auditors do not audit by results or objectives, they want to see a documneted plan in writing. Some are happy with the schedule, and evidence that you are adhering to it, which is proof you have a plan.

If you wish to appease the auditor you stated, then the plan should stated in your quality manual. It is should state something to the effect of what areas affect quality and the frequency in which they will be audited. The determination of what will be audited by whom, how they are prioritized and the scope of those audits.
Here is an example of a documented audit plan: "All areas stated in this quality manual as affecting quality will be audited no less than once per calendar year by personnel deemed competent per the requirements of section (what ever your competence awareness and training section is). The determination, scope and prioritization of audits on the audit schedule are based on impact to the company's quality system, findings found in internal, customer, 3rd party audits. the company's strategic mission and the subsequent area's alignment of objectives to the company's mission. Responsibility for the audit plan and schedule are that of the company's quality Manager or appointee"
....and wallah you have a plan that is documented. See ISO9001:2000 8.2.2 "The responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits...shall be defined in a documented procedure."

Have a great day!

jim

Bumping this back up to the top - I have another question (maybe I'm just not getting it).

Our audit schedule is a matrix showing each process to be audited, what month it is to be audited, and which clauses apply to that process (and therefore will be addressed in the audit).

Is this not a sufficient annual plan? The standard does not specify what must be included in the annual plan, as far as I can tell.


That is a sufficient annual audit schedule. As I indicated in my previous post:

The audit plan describes the scope of the audit, the details as to address, sites, people, criteria, customers, etc. It needs to describe what is being audited, documents, processes, and other appropriate things. It also should be reviewed and approved by the (internal) client as well.

Your annual audit schedule, as described, sounds good as far as defining which processes you plan to audit on which months.

Most auditors also create a specific daily/hourly schedule for each audit on your annual schedule. This is a more specific breakdown of detail - what process gets audited by which auditor, at what times, etc.

The audit schedule is considered part of the audit plan, even if it is a separate document. The standard does not specify what must be in it, but more info can be found in ISO 19011, (although it is still somewhat inadequate). There are also some good books on the subject.

Hope that helps.

The audit plan describes the scope of the audit, the details as to address, sites, people, criteria, customers, etc. It needs to describe what is being audited, documents, processes, and other appropriate things. It also should be reviewed and approved by the (internal) client as well.


hjilling:

Do you feel that an audit plan such as this should be defined at the start of each year, for each process? Or could the audit plan for the specific audit be determined just prior to the audit?

We have a system for defining the audit plan - scope, objectives, TS references, customer specific requirements, previous NCR's, inputs, outputs, measurements of success, documents, etc... We determine this 1 to 2 days prior to the audit.

Also, our audit procedure describes in some detail what we audit.

I guess I'm just confused - I want to cover the requirements of the standard, but I'm not especially concerned about what our auditor 'wants' to see.

Frankly, I feel our consultant is looking to frighten the plant manager into paying him to come back (his report mentions he's free for two weeks this month) to fix our problems before the audit. Some of his concerns I agree with, some of them sound like a good way to drum up some business.

hjilling:

Do you feel that an audit plan such as this should be defined at the start of each year, for each process? Or could the audit plan for the specific audit be determined just prior to the audit?

We have a system for defining the audit plan - scope, objectives, TS references, customer specific requirements, previous NCR's, inputs, outputs, measurements of success, documents, etc... We determine this 1 to 2 days prior to the audit.

Also, our audit procedure describes in some detail what we audit.

I guess I'm just confused - I want to cover the requirements of the standard, but I'm not especially concerned about what our auditor 'wants' to see.

Frankly, I feel our consultant is looking to frighten the plant manager into paying him to come back (his report mentions he's free for two weeks this month) to fix our problems before the audit. Some of his concerns I agree with, some of them sound like a good way to drum up some business.


What you are describing sounds ok. The specific schedule can be done a few days in advance. And, perhaps the consultant is looking for work. Relax, you're doing pretty good.

We treat both the same. So far the Certifying body has not said anything.

ISO9001:2000 8.2.2 "The responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits...shall be defined in a documented procedure."

So what your debating is that if a schedule is a documented procedure. Far as I am concerned it isn't, otherwise the standard would use the word "schedule"! The intent is for your customers, affected external/internal organizations to be able to see that your planning your audits according to status and importance to further validate the audit process. The concern is that the audits are just not for show, that there is some reasoning behind the way audits are planned, just document the reasoning. It may not be a value added activity for you but it is potentially for customers, 3rd party auditors and management trainees. It is no biggie just 5 lines about of how you plan the audits...so get to work and write it, probably 30min worth of work max.:whip: Now I am not sure but I believe the TS includes all 9001:2000 requirements plus.
Which I am not even sure about TS anymore:topic: since the American automobile market is headed for the pits anyway. I think its rediculous that we have to jump through hoops for folks like Delphi when they can't pay there own bills.
:nopity:

ISO9001:2000 8.2.2 "The responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits...shall be defined in a documented procedure."

So what your debating is that if a schedule is a documented procedure. Far as I am concerned it isn't, otherwise the standard would use the word "schedule"!


I don't think anyone questioned whether a procedure was needed, it's just that the word "plan" used in TS is vague.

What is the difference between an audit plan and an audit schedule?

TS requires a plan but says nothing about a schedule.

Thanks!

I have a similiar question, however, resulting from a requirement of ISO 19011. 5.5 requires audit programme records such as audit plans and so on.

Since I am about to prepare a training, I don't want to interprete something wrong into this term, so I 'd be happy to hear your opinion on that:

What exactly is an audit programme and what an audit plan, please?

Thank you for any help!

Typically a written procedure for Internal Audits describes your plans, and frequencies. Your audit plan is also listed on your schedule with the projected dates,(months,weeks for the year). TS states you shall develop a schedule for planned intervals and arrangements at a minimum of once a year to the TS16949 system requirements.
See TS 8.2.2 for details. I have developed a matrix to satisfy the detailed schedule and plans of areas to be audited. There are a few posted here on the Cove that may be useful to you. Suggest you do a seach for audit schedules and or audit plans.

Typically a written procedure for Internal Audits describes your plans, and frequencies. Your audit plan is also listed on your schedule with the projected dates,(months,weeks for the year). TS states you shall develop a schedule for planned intervals and arrangements at a minimum of once a year to the TS16949 system requirements.
See TS 8.2.2 for details. I have developed a matrix to satisfy the detailed schedule and plans of areas to be audited. There are a few posted here on the Cove that may be useful to you. Suggest you do a seach for audit schedules and or audit plans.


Thanks a lot - it took a while but now the penny has dropped! The audit programme is the procedure (process) and the audit plan is my audit schedule. How easy if you know...........:thanx: :thanx: :thanx:

P.S. I do not have to do with TS 16949 but with aviation business so I don't know details of TS 16949

I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.

I agree that the plan could be your schedule that is put together to audit all of your processes, and would love to "do away" with what we are calling our "audit plan" now. But if I do, I am confused on what the internal auditor will turn in to show as evidence that they performed the audit. Our auditor wants to know what questions were asked and what was audited. It is very time consuming to write down every question that you ask and the answers. I am having a hard time finding a good method for doing this. Does anyone have any examples of what paperwork the internal auditors turn in after completing an audit?

I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.

This is the way our audits are handled. We use an audit report template, fill in who, what, where, and the points we will be looking at in the left side and comments made during the audit in the right side. Works well for us and is very simple to use.:agree1:

I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.

I agree that the plan could be your schedule that is put together to audit all of your processes, and would love to "do away" with what we are calling our "audit plan" now. But if I do, I am confused on what the internal auditor will turn in to show as evidence that they performed the audit. Our auditor wants to know what questions were asked and what was audited. It is very time consuming to write down every question that you ask and the answers. I am having a hard time finding a good method for doing this. Does anyone have any examples of what paperwork the internal auditors turn in after completing an audit?


There is no requirement that every question be documented. That is very old, checklist mentality.

I recommend a 3 step approach.

First, the report card. Review the metrics that show how the process is performing, its criteria for effectiveness, and its objectives.

Second, audit the actual process. Review the process, flowcharts, turtles, procedures, whatever you use to describe the process.

Third, audit the links to other processes and supporting processes. Are the interactions effective? Are the outputs effective?

If you document this approach, I expect it should meet the requirements of the process approach very well, and provide a lot of value to the organization.

Hi James,
The difference that I can understand in ISO 19011-2003, the audit plan defines the scope & criteria, the audit schedule is when and what are to be audited. Hope this helps.
Regards
Ian
PS I dont know how to attach a file so that I can give you our audit plan and schedule in this "post quick reply" message

Hi James,
The difference that I can understand in ISO 19011-2003, the audit plan defines the scope & criteria, the audit schedule is when and what are to be audited. Hope this helps.
Regards
Ian
PS I dont know how to attach a file so that I can give you our audit plan and schedule in this "post quick reply" message

File Attachments - How to Attach a File to a Post in a Thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10668)

Hi James,
The difference that I can understand in ISO 19011-2003, the audit plan defines the scope & criteria, the audit schedule is when and what are to be audited. Hope this helps. I have attached my documents
Regards
Ian