:bigwave: hello, all, I`m a new comer. I have 2 years experience in ISO9000 and 14000, but I found that so many folks in the cove have many years experience in the area. So I would appreciate if you could give some guides.
My question is : How to get support from upper management? Our corp get ISO9000 certificate from SGS in 1995 and 14000 from TUV in2000. I `m in charge of ISO system from 2003. And I found that I can`t get enough support from upper management. For example, I invite 25 managers to attend the management review meeting , but only 10 come, furthermore, the comes listen only, so we have no W3 after this meeting. Another, I send the internal audit report to our General manager, but he deleted it without a glance. So the dept. ignore the nonformance . My boss - Management Representative, is only a dept. manager, no enough authority , so my work is too hard.

Have you tried to talk with them about your concerns? If so, what do they have to say. Everyone's situation is different, but it helps to know what your up against. Sounds like this may be the beginning of a horror story thread. I hope not. Best of luck. There is an employment section of the cove you may be wanting to keep an eye on. Sorry, just kidding. Good luck with upper management. If you can find even one who is on board with the system, you may be able to get the rest to come along as well.

First of all, Welcome Channey. :bigwave:

You have an interesting, but not uncommon, concern. If top management doesn't drive the quality initiative, by having a passion for it, then the job becomes much more difficult - but not impossible. You have to win management converts one at a time, through one small success (e.g. some successful application of a quality tool) at a time, using leadership skills. First, let's address some specific points you raised.

You invited 25 people to a meeting, and then wanted them to do more than "listen only". A productive meeting requiring much interchange is difficult with that many people, let alone getting 25 managers to align their schedules to attend. Don't take that personally. An 'information only' meeting may have many attend (like students in a class), but if you expect to do some problem resolution or planning, break it up into smaller groups at different times.

Instead of just sending (perhaps as an E-Mail attachment) the GM the internal audit, arrange to meet and discuss it. Possibly the GM has dozens of E-Mail messages each morning waiting and simply prunes the list. If there is no later query or question regarding the deleted ones, it must not have been important. Hey, some do that.

Finally, what does your immediate boss (the MR) expect of you personally? Are you accomplishing the goals he sets? If so, just keep doing the best you can and find opportunities here and there to win some battles and tout the benefits of quality.

:bigwave: hello, all, I`m a new comer. I have 2 years experience in ISO9000 and 14000, but I found that so many folks in the cove have many years experience in the area. So I would appreciate if you could give some guides.
My question is : How to get support from upper management? Our corp get ISO9000 certificate from SGS in 1995 and 14000 from TUV in2000. I `m in charge of ISO system from 2003. And I found that I can`t get enough support from upper management. For example, I invite 25 managers to attend the management review meeting , but only 10 come, furthermore, the comes listen only, so we have no W3 after this meeting. Another, I send the internal audit report to our General manager, but he deleted it without a glance. So the dept. ignore the nonformance . My boss - Management Representative, is only a dept. manager, no enough authority , so my work is too hard.
Let me address one part of this issue in this post and maybe take up some more in later posts.

ATTENDANCE AND PARTICIPATION OF SENIOR MANAGERS AT MEETINGS

First, decide what you want to accomplish at this meeting.
(If the meeting is for information only, consider sending everyone memos or reports instead so they can read and understand material at their own pace.)

Once you have your action items or goals for the meeting set, decide who needs to be there to approve or perform the action.

Invite only the people necessary, copy others afterwards with minutes of what transpired.

Prior to the meeting, send out an itemized agenda with a timetable for when each item will be considered. Invite comments or additions/subtractions from the invitees for changes to the agenda. Do this with sufficient notice so folks can put the meeting on their own agendas. For example, you may not need ALL 25 managers available throughout the entire meeting, only for the agenda items that directly affect their department, otherwise, they can deal with a written report if they do not have input or need to vote on an action.

With the invitation, request response indicating whether each invitee will be able to attend.

At the meeting, stick to the agenda. Do not waste time reading reports out loud to attendees - they should have copies beforehand so they can make notes or prepare questions so they are not surprised by the content of the report.

Do not linger after the preset time for ending meeting. If you haven't covered all the topics, table the remaining ones for another meeting. Evaluate why you were unable to stick to the agenda. Plan for those delays or interruptions for the next meeting.

Assign one person to prepare minutes of the meeting. Immediately after the meeting, distribute the minutes to all attendees. Ask for confirmation, additions or corrections. Follow up with each attendee until you have either an approval of minutes or corrections and additions to additionally distribute to remaining attendees.

Above all, remain in control of the meeting. If you lose control during the meeting, it means you have not planned adequately in assembling a guest list or your agenda is not tight enough. Business meetings need to be different from coffee shop conversations - you need an agenda, a goal to be accomplished, and the will to cut off distractions from ANYONE during the meeting.

See http://www.asq.org/pub/qualityprogress/past/0905/qp0905prevette.pdf

Welcome to the Cove, Channey :bigwave: How to get support from upper management? I see that good advice has been provided already (and I'm sure there is more to come), but I would like to suggest a look in the following old thread:

The Elusive Culture Change (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=4422&highlight=missionary)

/Claes

i mean..we all struggled with this topic....how do we get support from upper management and we have seen many suggestions in the cove...but ultimately, it is up to the upper mangement whether to support or not support...all we can do is to give reasons why the upper management should support the quality efforts and try to convince them....but we all know the answer....some upper management will NEVER change and that is the fact

from what i have gathered in my 20 years of being a "slave :lol:".....the changes come about when there is a crisis / need by the upper management....think about it, have you seen layoffs during good times?...or hirings during bad times? .... how many companies (am talking general here) initiated iso/ts registration on their own?....or how many are FORCED by the customers?

here are few things i have done (or wish i have done) to obtain the upper management's support.

1. know the true landscape of the company...know the people who makes the REAL decisions or has REAL influence within the company....i knew a janitor who had the plant manager's ears and i used (that sounds so nasty :o ) him to get the plant manager's support....your immediate manager/supervisor may mean nothing in most cases

2. BE THE UPPER MANAGEMENT....(yah,, right!!! :lmao: )

3. create a crisis...but do it very carefully :ca: ...you don't want it to bite your ***


If all else fails, you can alway get a new job. :agree1:

Arrange for a "FREE" lunch to be brought in, invite them, and charge it to "Management Development"

For our management reviews I will typically invite only those individuals that represent the company's "top management": the President, Executive Vice President, Director of Marketing, Director of Human Resources, and the General Manager of Manufacturing. To invite "all managers" from "all departments" is unnecessary in that the decisions made that may ultimately affect the company and the direction of the Quality Management System, would come from these individuals only and filter down through the rest of the company from there. Our internal audits are always completed before the management review, which is where the feedback comes from the other departments and managers for presentation to top management at the management review.

One thing that I have learned about top management is that they understand only two things: money and how much it will cost them :D . I always make sure I go into the management review with examples of actual cost savings that their quality program has provided. If you do this you will be amazed to find out how easy it is to get “top management support.”

For our management reviews I will typically invite only those individuals that represent the company's "top management": the President, Executive Vice President, Director of Marketing, Director of Human Resources, and the General Manager of Manufacturing. To invite "all managers" from "all departments" is unnecessary in that the decisions made that may ultimately affect the company and the direction of the Quality Management System, would come from these individuals only and filter down through the rest of the company from there. Our internal audits are always completed before the management review, which is where the feedback comes from the other departments and managers for presentation to top management at the management review.

One thing that I have learned about top management is that they understand only two things: money and how much it will cost them :D . I always make sure I go into the management review with examples of actual cost savings that their quality program has provided. If you do this you will be amazed to find out how easy it is to get “top management support.”
:agree: It is good to see covers using the opportunities Management Review (MR) gives them.

The way I see it MR is our chance to sit with the top guys and tell them a story about how the system they pay for is doing what it should - or if it isn't float the issues as to why it isn't (along with potential solutions).

I don't put myself forward as a great exponent - I joined one company (many years ago), got a ticket to the monthly board meeting shortly after and floated the need for a MR to them - absolutely dead pan response until the FD put his hand up and said "Sorry Paul it may just be me but I have no idea what you're talking about".

Suffice to say eight months and at least one personal visit to each board member later we had our MR. Lesson learned - know the level of knowledge before you get to talk in their meeting and make sure you avoid all the ISOisms that they won't recognize!

:bigwave: hello, all, I`m a new comer. I have 2 years experience in ISO9000 and 14000, but I found that so many folks in the cove have many years experience in the area. So I would appreciate if you could give some guides.
My question is : How to get support from upper management? Our corp get ISO9000 certificate from SGS in 1995 and 14000 from TUV in2000. I `m in charge of ISO system from 2003. And I found that I can`t get enough support from upper management. For example, I invite 25 managers to attend the management review meeting , but only 10 come, furthermore, the comes listen only, so we have no W3 after this meeting. Another, I send the internal audit report to our General manager, but he deleted it without a glance. So the dept. ignore the nonformance . My boss - Management Representative, is only a dept. manager, no enough authority , so my work is too hard.
A lot of very good responses to your problem - a problem that I and I'm sure many Quality people encounter frequently. Personaly, I'm running with the 'educate and inform them' plan and I will see how management respond to the information I supply them with. Basically just planting the seed so they hopefully begin to think about the issues before I start to suggest systems or improvements.

thk you all for your kindly reply. tks Rob,Claes,Justin,Wes,Steve,qualeety,piney,Paul,colin and ralphsulser. I think ralphsulser is a humorous and wise, may be you know a chinese idiom "酒桌上好办事(all things can be solved at dining table)“ hey hey ~~.
All managers I invited are important, such as QA mger ,Product mger,HR mger... I send the meeting material (including 107 pages PPT. and meeting agenda and discuss topics) to them and let them prepare their speak about two weeks ago before the meeting beginning. The topics are concern quality control, CS,Customer Complaint,FPY baseline,entitlement and so on,but no man release any opinion in the meeting.Maybe they think that MR is pronoun of bald and boring.
we all know iso is one of the basic managemet methods, no advanced management method can be pushed successfully without good base. But maybe our magers don`t think so. They like new concepts,such as zero defects ,6sigma ... but our operating level is not enough to implement these.

If you want to have senior management's attention and participation, $peak the language they are intere$ted in. Until you make a clear correlation between CS, yields, returns, escapes, etc... with $$$$, you will have a hard time communicating with them. Another hint: a 107 page powerpoint presentation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody can survive a 107 page presentation. That is cruel and unusual punishment.:lol: They are obviously avoiding this for a reason.

If you want to have senior management's attention and participation, $peak the language they are intere$ted in. Until you make a clear correlation between CS, yields, returns, escapes, etc... with $$$$, you will have a hard time communicating with them. Another hint: a 107 page powerpoint presentation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody can survive a 107 page presentation. That is cruel and unusual punishment.:lol: They are obviously avoiding this for a reason.
Sidney, I couldn't agree with you more. :agree1: I'm running with the 'educate and inform my$elf' plan and I will $ee how management re$pond$ to the information I $upply them with.:agree: "$$$ talks and bullsh*t walks", as the saying goes. BTW, somebody please wake me up when the 107 page powerpoint presentation (readalong) is over.:sleep: :bonk:

You are welcome Channey. It is important that you listen to the advice many have given here. For one, as Sidney says, speak in the language of money (dollars, Yuan, RMB). Also, a 107 page powerpoint presentation, information only (read: droning on and on) to 25 people confined in a room for who knows how long will not only kill everyone in the room but will also kill your quality initiative.

It seems like what you are actually trying to do is train your people on many quality concepts (100 pages is typical of 2 or 3 full days training materials). If that is the case, break your training up into several smaller sessions. Do not simply read the powerpoint slides but do some extemporaneous explanations, illustrations, and exercises. Get the people involved and help them see the expected results (how it affects them personally for the better).

In short: Find a way that will appeal to management, not turn them away.

I most certainly agree with breaking the material up into smaller, less time consuming and more easily learned portions.

I wonder if some of these managers feel the material and topics are not directly relevant to them? A sense of detachment has prevailed everywhere that we don't compellingly "prove" the subjects are important. They truly believe that managing ISO is your job, not theirs. And they are right--but managing quality is everyone's job. ISO is merely the vehicle we use to make it easier to identify and manage quality factors. It provides structure, but not quality. People do that, and the department heads influence how their departments will get it done.

So you'll have to start educating them with results (versus early education, making them smart in the data that influences results) so as to get their attention.

Money certainly talks louder than the rest. Lost time=money, inefficient communications between departments=money, customer returns=money, lost customer loyalty=lost sales (money). You must show how their actions (through their interest in quality and proactive attention to it) can mean more money for the company. You can wonder out loud, "Wouldn't (name of CEO) be pleased if your department realized true, enduring cost savings and raised our profits?? Hmmmm?? ;) You can gaze around the room and look into the eyes of certain key managers as you say this.

The object is to bring your company's quality functions away from the outdated (inspection and segregating bad product) and into the globally competetive "new" (interactive problem prevention at all levels and in all departments) quality way.

You will need to show the money effects of problems and be ready to show how much money you think could have been saved (raising the profits that amount) by preventing the problem instead. To do this math, compare the costs of doing it wrong against the costs of preventing the problems.

Be ready also to show how one department's work affects these costs down the line. To the managers that do come, show a process chart that clearly identifies the relationships between all of these departments. Make examples of specific defects and show how, if they had been prevented way in the beginning, time (and money--making the department look better to the CEO) could have been saved in the various places.

Some will continue to feel detached unless you extrapolate these results. HR might say "Production quality doesn't affect me" but it does. Training, safety awareness, ensuring a safe working environment (if you don't have a Safety Officer) all impact employee performance on production lines. "If X money is saved," you can muse, "Couldn't we offer a higher wage and attract better workers in this increasingly competetive environment?"

Could they offer higher wages? The CEO's enthusiasm for this process is the most important of all. Speaking the language of money is most important with the very top management, who sets the company's culture and can approve strategic benefits (such as raising wages for recruiting and improving safety) that are actually rewards of doing all things well.

I hope this makes sense! I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

I send the meeting material (including 107 pages PPT. and meeting agenda and discuss topics) to them and let them prepare their speak about two weeks ago before the meeting beginning.

I understand from your first post that you have a system in place, but I have to ask this: Are you sure they know what they are supposed to do at the meeting? (I have to agree with the rest btw: 50 pages of Power Point could put even a notorious insomniac to sleep, and 107 pages could be lethal). Perhaps you need to talk to them in smaller groups or even separately to work out what everyone should bring to the meeting? Further questions:

If you bring all that information in, what are they supposed to bring?
What is on the meeting agenda?

What I really mean is that if you force feed them with everything, they will consider this meeting your show, when it in fact should be theirs. The MR is supposed to be a management tool. So let them take control of the meeting.

/Claes

I too have many many issues with the management at my company buying into this whole thing. We're currently trying to set our system up, and they don't want to make ANY changes to how they're doing things right now. Unfortunately, how they're doing things right now is NOT compliant with ISO 9001 (no matter how many times they like to bill themselves as exactly that). My main problem is, our president is ill, probably will not be coming back to the company, so I am dealing with the General Manager and one of the engineers (those two are as thick as theives) and NEITHER want to even begin to understand what ISO is all about :argue: (though the engineer likes to believe he is an expert because his girlfriend is an ISO internal auditor for another company). I'm just trying to figure out how to get them to understand that this version of ISO is different than the experiences they've had at previous companies with the 1994 version (all bad). Any suggestions as to how I can succinctly describe the system without them going all glassy eyed on me? I'm supposed to be having a meeting for the whole (all 10!) company this Friday and describing it, but with those two sitting in the back rolling their eyes, I have a feeling that the system will not work. HELP!!! :mg: I'm ready to go hit those job boards, I tell ya.... :frust:

I too have many many issues with the management at my company buying into this whole thing. We're currently trying to set our system up, and they don't want to make ANY changes to how they're doing things right now. Unfortunately, how they're doing things right now is NOT compliant with ISO 9001 (no matter how many times they like to bill themselves as exactly that). My main problem is, our president is ill, probably will not be coming back to the company, so I am dealing with the General Manager and one of the engineers (those two are as thick as theives) and NEITHER want to even begin to understand what ISO is all about :argue: (though the engineer likes to believe he is an expert because his girlfriend is an ISO internal auditor for another company). I'm just trying to figure out how to get them to understand that this version of ISO is different than the experiences they've had at previous companies with the 1994 version (all bad). Any suggestions as to how I can succinctly describe the system without them going all glassy eyed on me? I'm supposed to be having a meeting for the whole (all 10!) company this Friday and describing it, but with those two sitting in the back rolling their eyes, I have a feeling that the system will not work. HELP!!! :mg: I'm ready to go hit those job boards, I tell ya.... :frust:
I believe you have to educate Management and at the same time make them think that they are coming up with the idea's and decisions. Inform them of how good it looks to your customers and how competitors (that are already ISO 9001:2000 accredited) will be the 1st choice. It's also about making everyone's job easier and allowing everyone to have an input to the continuous improvement process, ultimately making the business more efficient and profitable...

Thank you Colin for your reply. It's not really that I need to convince them they need to get ISO certified, they want that. It's just that they want to make no changes and not be involved at all, they want me to do it all. "That's what we hired you for" is all I hear. I've tried explaining that it is a requirement of the standard for them to be involved and that without their support the certification will never happen, but they don't seem to HEAR that. The gentleman that is helping me through the process (he is the quality manager for one of our suppliers that recently went through the process) suggest I just tell our external auditor (for the registrar) what kind of problems I'm having and let HER come in and tell management what is required, but I feel like I *should* be able to handle it, ya know? :lol:

...just tell our external auditor (for the registrar) what kind of problems I'm having ...

Use 'internal' help instead. It's already mentioned above...

That's why I'm using sometimes the 'upper management level minus one'.

The secretary....great (usually) woman who can listen (is part of their job) and usually 'the boss' is listening to them, because they 'know' much more what's going on in the company.
They can arrange that with a hint left and a little one right, the 'idea' is coming from 'the boss'.

'Using' an external source can backfire on you if the boss will look at it as a 'loss of prestige'. Don't know if this is the right English term :o , but I think you get the idea.

though the engineer likes to believe he is an expert because his girlfriend is an ISO internal auditor for another companyIf she's good, maybe you could ask her to make a guest performance (audit your company)? If she's not, on the other hand, it could backfire badly.

/Claes

I like the evil quality approach to managment. I first CYA :ca: with emails documentation then I give them enough rope to hang themselves by not pushing them very hard to comply. After the hanging and showing them how much money they just lost the company, I come in as first aid to pull the thorn out of the lion's paw so to speak, however, that is only one of the many "evil quality" approaches I use, only because it seems to work best for the current American business culture, always reactive and barely ever preventive. :whip:

See http://www.asq.org/pub/qualityprogress/past/0905/qp0905prevette.pdf

Steve: Is there an updated link for this document? Can it possibly be shared here as an attachment?

:D he he he… some of guy’s suggestions are quite funny (it’s like watching new episodes of Mr. Bean)… and yet seems effective… :rolleyes: I was wondering if they were used in real world…

…as others observed, this is really a common problem… a very strange common problem… :naughty:

…well, why would you implement a standard management system such as ISO if you don’t have management support?... how it is going to be approved on the first place anyway?... quite bizarre, is it? :drunk:

Geez, we need so many possible solutions to answer the uncountable ways bad management is capable of existing. Yeah, I agree with what others said. There is no one way to get their support since there is no one way they resist change. :frust:

So what's my action plan given how many options I have to choose from? I'll introduce them to the Cove! :biglaugh:I hope you guys don't mind? Would you guys think this is advisable? Of course, I promise to do my best to spare you from the resulting internal debates regarding the interpretations of the content encountered here. :tg: I understand how the Cove is meant to be our place of comfort from it all and so I hope I'm not trespassing on that by inviting some of the "dark side" over. :notme:

I'm seriously thinking that this is the best thing I can do right now so I really hope it's alright. My managers are the typical "It's always been done this way..." managers and really only value their own opinions (which to them are facts). And amongst their last line of defense whenever I share even basic QC principles that they don't practice (which pretty much includes most of everything) is that I am still green having only had a year's experience in the workplace to date. Here though, they can't possibly claim superiority over everyone else. (well I could actually be underestimating their ego) :rolleyes:

If they do manage to bite my bait into ridding themselves of ignorance (both real and faked, but a lot more of real) then I'll have to ask you guys to be patient with them should they miraculously start posting to learn QC. They'd probably really be trying to discredit the whole QC profession in what they say QC is while trying to justify their own substandards as real QC. And I'm not joking when I say that either. :( I've been told that aiming to actually apply industry standards (and I mean even the most rudimentary of good business practices) is unrealistically optimistic and the concept of high standard was actually denoted in a negative light.

My current stance on how to get management support involves helping them understand the tip of the iceberg concept. Explain to them how new tools, methods, strategies, measures, standards, etc. help to expose more of the hidden issues beneath the water and solve them.

Of course, you'd really have to package it in a positive light since many incompetent managers think, "What? You want me to see more problems?! :mg:" and so prefer to feign ignorance. :nope: They like being shortsighted by 90%. It's easier on them. There are those like my managers who actually set up internal standards so that such ignorance can be protected and they have the delusion of having a "good" system. So, like others say, things should be prepared to show concrete advantages, even personal advantages to the manager/s involved up to the point of even letting them take credit. I admit this presentation part is my personal challenge right now.

:argue: <- how successful I've been so far

Then, there really are just those managers that NEVER get it. Just this past week there was clear evidence of the consequence of our almost non-existant night shift inspection. There were 66 pieces of nonconforming products that went undetected. Fortunately, they were found during my shift since I actually do inspections properly, even to the point of making up for the shortcomings of the night shift. I was told that, in all the years my manager was there, such problems only started "occuring" when I was made the day shift inspector. This was the point where I explained the iceberg illustration to show how I was simply the first inspector they ever had to properly implement QC and thus this helped expose problems during the night shift which were normally undetected throughout the years. And then that was the point he claimed I should be more "flexible" and just follow what he says because I was still new and he was superior in experience. :bonk: