Okay, getting ready for our surveillance audit next month, and starting to feel pretty frazzled. I know we have a few "Funniest Audit Stories" threads going on, but I'm wondering if anyone has any good horror stories that didn’t fall under the funny category. Just to freak me out.

One that comes to my mind, from a place I used to work wasn’t a QMS audit, but an audit of the plant by the top-top-top management of the corporation. The president of the division was going to be there – very big deal. It was never stated, but I think he was there to decide the fate of the plant.

We 5Sed our butts off for days prior to the audit. Dotted all our i’s and crossed all our t’s. Took down the outdated birds-eye view pictures of the plant and hired a helicopter and photographer to take new ones. Stripped and re-varnished the wooden paneling in the lobby that the sun had faded over 30 years. Washed the fork trucks. Pulled up all the aisle marking tape and put down new. You get the idea.

The first day of the audit, the VP of the division wandered away from the tour group without saying a word just as they were standing near the Spare Parts crib. He started to climb the stairway that goes to a loft where we kept ‘bulk’ spare parts such as rubber hosing. Curious, everyone followed him up the stairs. At the top of the stairs, he opened a door that probably hadn’t been opened in 10 years. Seriously, most of the employees at that plant didn’t even realize the room was there. And it was packed full of stuff. Old parts (probably nonconforming, though not marked), stacks and stacks of mystery documents, pieces of machines… all covered with 10 years worth of dust. I have to assume the room had been used as a ‘trailer’ to hide a bunch of stuff before an audit long ago, but I don’t know that for sure – nobody really does.

You can imagine how many hearts stopped as he turned that doorknob…. We got a good chewing out at the audit wrap-up for that.

So, come on, any really good horror stories?

the company hired a consulting company to evaluate the VA/VE. After two months of investigation, the consulting company wrote the following in its final report..."you have more directors than Hollywood"....

and yes, the company promoted all ex-plant managers to directors....and had more directors than plant managers...

as you would have guessed it, the consulting company (a very reputable one, i might add) was never invited back for other consulting works.....

sometimes, it pays to say what the customer wants to hear.....:bonk:

Anyone have any more?

Auditor from H E double toothpicks. She was trying to drum up business for her consulting firm, so she hit us with everything she could, so that we'd hire her to "fix" it.

Yelled at our employees. These are big tough guys, she had them curled up in fetal positions sucking their thumbs and crying for Mama. She told me that I should be fired for incompetence.

Her report was totally unreadable when she sent it back, the grammar was that bad. She included findings about equipment areas that we don't even have! 38 major findings, she was back four times to follow up.

She was finally fired, new auditors came in and could not understand how come what they saw and what she saw was so contradictory. I told them that we hadn't really changed anything other than add a couple of things they asked for (PPAP type requirements) Of the original 38 items, only one of them was really valid, the rest were things she didn't want to go to the proper person to find evidence.

Auditor from H E double toothpicks. She was trying to drum up business for her consulting firm, so she hit us with everything she could, so that we'd hire her to "fix" it.

Yelled at our employees. These are big tough guys, she had them curled up in fetal positions sucking their thumbs and crying for Mama. She told me that I should be fired for incompetence.

Her report was totally unreadable when she sent it back, the grammar was that bad. She included findings about equipment areas that we don't even have! 38 major findings, she was back four times to follow up.

She was finally fired, new auditors came in and could not understand how come what they saw and what she saw was so contradictory. I told them that we hadn't really changed anything other than add a couple of things they asked for (PPAP type requirements) Of the original 38 items, only one of them was really valid, the rest were things she didn't want to go to the proper person to find evidence.

How in the world did she get hired to start with? :D

Stijloor.

Steel,

Any chance she had the same initials as "The Duke"? Sure sounds like Rooster Cogburn to me. LOL.

Dave

I have an odd one.

My normal auditor is unfortunately off on sick leave. So, I have a different auditor for my surveillance audit next week. They first asked me if I wanted the "helper" auditor that was here for the registratrion audit.

I kindly said no.

Why? This auditor liked to apply medical device and nuclear standard requirements to our point of purchase and retail display business. Yes, it was quite humourous to try to explain to her that we don't need to have the level of restrictions that those industries do! :frust: Fortunately, the lead auditor had a much more level head and realized that by not having some of these items in place we were not affecting the quality of the product OR customer satisfaction.

Oh well - we shall see what this auditor does. Considering what has been going on here lately it should be interesting.:notme:

This was a customer audit, who knows how the hiring process went. I know there are other threads here relating to this audit (unethical representation as an accreditation board auditor, etc.) but, the past is the past, i've let it go. (but it is still good for a few laughs every now and again:lol:)

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=22724

They'll be back tomorrow for a surveillance.

I don't know if I posted this here before, but if its here it was posted a while ago.

This was more than 10 years ago, one of our very first, if not the first, ISO 9000 audit. I had several 3 ring binders prepared, location specific, for each of the processes we had, with laminated and signed copies of the relevant procedures, etc., in each. We went to one of the Operators, for a process where the manual was located next door (40 feet away) because of the nature of the process. The auditor asked to see the Operator's manual, and out it comes. The Operator had made his very own, which was incomplete and had out-of-date unauthorized and uncontrolled copies in it. Oh boy.

The auditor saw what must have been a look of horror on my face and started to laugh and shake his head. I explained to the Operator (again) where his manual was. He said, yeah, but this is right here, or something like that.

The auditor gave us a break and we ended up with a minor, because that was the only problem of that type found.

By the next audit, the operator had his very own, official, manual.

While eating lunch during our ISO17025 Surveillance Audit last month, our auditor mentioned a situation with another company that had upset here.

She did the pre audit and original audit for this company with only a couple of OFI's written. Last year she performed their Surveillance I audit and wrote a couple of minor nonconformances. This year when she returned she was told the lab manager had left a few months before her visit.

It seems he was not given a merit raise because of the two nonconformances she had written during the previous audit. He decided to leave.

Oh ya, she didn't write any nonconformances during her last visit. Just 9 OFI's. :whip:

Oh ya, she didn't write any nonconformances during her last visit. Just 9 OFI's. What is not clear from your post is if ANY of these 9 opportunities for improvement should have been, instead, categorized as a non-conformity. The despicable practice of soft grading findings is creating tremendous damage to the integrity of the certification sector. ANAB has an Accreditation Rule prohibiting it. Check 16. Identifying and Documenting Nonconformities During Management Systems Audits (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/Advisory/AR16.pdf).

I don't know if I posted this here before, but if its here it was posted a while ago.

This was more than 10 years ago, one of our very first, if not the first, ISO 9000 audit. I had several 3 ring binders prepared, location specific, for each of the processes we had, with laminated and signed copies of the relevant procedures, etc., in each. We went to one of the Operators, for a process where the manual was located next door (40 feet away) because of the nature of the process. The auditor asked to see the Operator's manual, and out it comes. The Operator had made his very own, which was incomplete and had out-of-date unauthorized and uncontrolled copies in it. Oh boy.

The auditor saw what must have been a look of horror on my face and started to laugh and shake his head. I explained to the Operator (again) where his manual was. He said, yeah, but this is right here, or something like that.

The auditor gave us a break and we ended up with a minor, because that was the only problem of that type found.

By the next audit, the operator had his very own, official, manual.I remember in the early days of personal computers being used in offices many operators would have "cheat sheets" scotch taped to their computer or desk with the steps necessary to "boot" the computer and open the software program where they were to read existing material or post new material. Almost always, these were handwritten notes definitely not under the control of the organization.

I still am able to go into some office environments where the password for entering a computer program is posted prominently on a piece of paper taped to the side of the monitor.:mg:

What is not clear from your post is if ANY of these 9 opportunities for improvement should have been, instead, categorized as a non-conformity. The despicable practice of soft grading findings is creating tremendous damage to the integrity of the certification sector. ANAB has an Accreditation Rule prohibiting it. Check 16. Identifying and Documenting Nonconformities During Management Systems Audits (http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/Advisory/AR16.pdf).

while I agree that soft findings are bad I would have used the phrases "despicable" and "tremendous damage" to the mangement action of witholding a merit increase simply because of the existence of 2 minor NCs (assuming this story is true and I have come across this behavior often enough to know its' highly probable) If I were the auditor I would have gone after managment committment as this type of event is a sure sign of management "not getting it"

while I agree that soft findings are bad I would have used the phrases "despicable" and "tremendous damage" to the mangement action of witholding a merit increase simply because of the existence of 2 minor NCs I agree. But "two wrongs don't make a right". Apparently, the auditor at hand might have decided to be kinder, softer, gentler....creating other problems, in the process.

People who are conflict-adverse should never get in the audit profession. There are times when you need to tell people their baby is ugly. With tact, diplomacy and professionalism, of course. :tg:

yes two wrongs don't make a right: whcih is why *I* would not have turned my back on the real issue. I would have pulled the management committment thread very hard. If the situation warranted I woudl have been far more inclined to issue a major to managment AND required serious review with evidence of a true causal investigation into any other NCs I found.

yes two wrongs don't make a right: whcih is why *I* would not have turned my back on the real issue. I would have pulled the management committment thread very hard. If the situation warranted I woudl have been far more inclined to issue a major to managment AND required serious review with evidence of a true causal investigation into any other NCs I found.

Leave us not forget that we don't know anything about the provenance of the information regarding the lab manager leaving the company. What about "objective" evidence? It's very possible that there were other, less apparent reasons. Auditors shouldn't be in the habit of trying to run auditees' businesses, and most certainly shouldn't be stirring something up over lunchroom gossip.

In furtherance of Jim Wynne's point - has it occurred to folks that perhaps there were ONLY OFI's because the departing employee had left a good system with bad bosses?

I don't see justification to accuse the auditor of writing a "soft" audit, nor is there any justification to tie an isolated incident into anything other than the over-emphasis organizations are placing on "clean" audits instead of looking at a "dirty" one as a check on complacency and lack of managerial commitment.

The fact the employee was passed over for a raise echoes of what we have addressed numerous times here in the Cove - fair salary, justified raises, and good working conditions betoken the amount of respect an organization has for the worker. When the salary, raises, or working conditions are deficient, the organization is signaling a lack of respect for the employee and often the best recourse for the employee is to move to an employer with more respect.

It's very possible that there were other, less apparent reasons. Yep. And there is also the possibility that the two NCs could have been adequately associated with the individual lack of performance. While audits focus on systems, a few times, some non-conformities reflect on a person's gross disregard and/or negligence in following an established process. It is impossible for us to conjecture if the demerit were justified, or not.

Yep. And there is also the possibility that the two NCs could have been adequately associated with the individual lack of performance. While audits focus on systems, a few times, some non-conformities reflect on a person's gross disregard and/or negligence in following an established process. It is impossible for us to conjecture if the demerit were justified, or not.

There's always two sides to a story.

I have similar story about an employee being fired for a major noncoformance sited for shipping nonconforming product.

back in 2002 we were going through a QS9000 surveillance audit and the auditor found out-of-spec recordings on an in process inspection. The next day the QS9000 coordinator was let go. When the auditor returned to verify our corrective action, he stated that the former QS9000 coordinator asked him not to site a major nonconformance, because the company would fire him. The major nonconformance was not the reason the employee was let go. I new the employee was going to be let go, because my QM told me that I was taking over as the coordinator mostly because of the actions I took to get corrective actions completed from the previous surveillance audit, which I might add, I had 1 week to complete them becasue the previous coordinator had not started or assigned corrective actions immediatly after the surveillance audit. I might add that the previous coordinator was suspended due to the fact he aurthorized shipping nonconforming parts to a customer.

People who are conflict-adverse should never get in the audit profession. There are times when you need to tell people their baby is ugly. With tact, diplomacy and professionalism, of course. :tg:


...Of all the babies I have observed, that child is clearly in the 10 percentile...

I have similar story about an employee being fired for a major noncoformance sited for shipping nonconforming product.

back in 2002 we were going through a QS9000 surveillance audit and the auditor found out-of-spec recordings on an in process inspection. The next day the QS9000 coordinator was let go. When the auditor returned to verify our corrective action, he stated that the former QS9000 coordinator asked him not to site a major nonconformance, because the company would fire him. The major nonconformance was not the reason the employee was let go. I new the employee was going to be let go, because my QM told me that I was taking over as the coordinator mostly because of the actions I took to get corrective actions completed from the previous surveillance audit, which I might add, I had 1 week to complete them becasue the previous coordinator had not started or assigned corrective actions immediatly after the surveillance audit. I might add that the previous coordinator was suspended due to the fact he aurthorized shipping nonconforming parts to a customer.
This anecdote probably ALSO belongs in our Occupation Discussions Forum because it illustrates the point an employer may have already made a decision to fire an employee for lots of little reasons, but is looking for one "big" item to cite as the official excuse.

Those little reasons can be as petty and venal as not liking the way the employee looks or combs his hair.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the stated reason IS the only reason because the employer wants a scary example to use as a motivator for the balance of the work force. This, of course, is completely contrary to Deming's edict to REMOVE FEAR! Such actions by employers often illustrate a deeper and more rotten problem within an organization than the venality of one single boss.

Don't know if this is a horror story or just a funny, but here it is.

Some years ago, when QS-9000 was still fresh and new and consultants were making money hand over fist helping get automotive parts plants registered, I was working with a GM parts plant to get their registration. This particular plant was VERY nervous about the registration, since the rumor was, bad registration audit = plant closure. This was a very believable rumor at the time. GM parts plants were falling like leaves in October. Come the week of the assessment, and things seemed to be going very well. The lead assessor had a verbal tic, whenever someone would make an assertion, he would immediately say "Could I see your evidence for that?" After 4 days, this was quite noticeable. Our plant manager was very much in favor of wide open communication, so he decided the outbrief would be held in the plant main conference center, capacity 1200, with any employee who wished able to sit and observe. We have a couple of minors, corrective action already in progress. When the lead assessor stated "The team will be recommending you for registration." the crowd went wild. Applause, whistles, cheering, etc. When it died down, he then said "I guess now you will be willing to admit my parents are married?" And before I could stop myself, I called out "Could I see your evidence for that?" The three second silence before he started laughing seemed like eternity.

Geoff Withnell

Yep. And there is also the possibility that the two NCs could have been adequately associated with the individual lack of performance. While audits focus on systems, a few times, some non-conformities reflect on a person's gross disregard and/or negligence in following an established process. It is impossible for us to conjecture if the demerit were justified, or not.

Which by the way is why I stated my caveats about the truth of the alleged situation and why I said I would 'pull the thread' on management committment (which is where the objective evidence comes from) NOT on teh person who left. My comments were meant as balance to the heavily worded point of "soft" findings by the auditor and how that was devastating to the profession...by the way I always pull hard on management committment and the findings of cause and corrective corrective for NCs. And it's never in response to lunchroom gossip.

A coorective action that I isseud to a supplier for parts that fell off a truck onto a busy highway resutled in a casual finding that the driver was a t fault for securing the parts correctly and the corrective action was to fire him. When the parts again fell off the truck in our parking lot, I investigated personally and foudn that the tie downs were not capable of holding the parts and they never had been. We changed suppliers.



unfortunately we all deal with hypothetical situations and/or the poster's perspective in this forum

Just wrapped up our first ISO surveillance plus CE marking re-registration.

The horror story wasn't the auditor - although I really believe he confuses "auditor" and "consultant".

The real horror here is that no one in my company listened listened when I told them - "the first ISO surveillance will be way harder than the registration audit" and "I'm spending so much time covering everyone elses butts that I'm going to have mine lit up".

Sure enough - much of management didn't take prediction one very seriously as they saw a pretty certificate on the wall and suffered for it and I got minors on two things under my control that I should have caught before hand.

bottom line is we passed both but with more minor NCs than I would have liked.

Well here goes, once upon a time I supervised Metrology along with a number of other departments. We were scheduled for aa Air Force Audit, our product lines included F-16, Cruise Missle Structures, MD 11 Sideframes, and many other DOD products. Calibration was scheduled for the first day and we were prepped and standing by for Inspection. Upon entering the Laboratory, the Auditor went to the Temperature and Humidty recorder as the first order of business. To my dismay, he discovered that the strip chart was placed blank side up. When he questioned the Metrology supervisor, the explanation was that they had ran out of Strip Charts and were turning them over and using the back side for recording the temperature and humidity. We recieved a failing grade in the calibration section and of course I had to explain to the General Manager what happened. To this day....I have a severe dislike for anything to do with Metrology.

Here’s mine… :cool: a few years ago, I audited one of our supplier as part of our process for evaluating supplier… anyway, this supplier (a well-known supplier in this country & listed on the top 10 companies), hired an industrial engineer (a few weeks prior to my audit) to do statistics… and really, :yes: I was impressed of how good his statistical works that highlighted those undesirable events happening on their production lines… so, my overall findings is that they should come-out with an effective corrective actions to lessen (if not totally eliminate) these “undesirable” events…

After, a few months (as per our agreed verification time frame), I re-audited them again and found no “undesirable” reports :nope: … so, to make the story short, I asked one of their engineer how they did it… he simply answered to me “the management fired the industrial engineer…” :frust:

OK - my turn. Our company was one of those that would rent a trailer before the audit to hide the products, documents, etc. that they didn't want the auditor to see.

The day of the audit dawned bright and clear and the auditors showed up to begin the audit. They wanted a site tour to include the outside of the building just to get a look at how everything was layed out. At the same time they were outside, a supervisor took a few last minute items out to the trailer to hide. The auditors probably wouldn't have noticed it but the supervisor fell out of the trailer and broke his leg. Needless to say, the auditors came running over to where the guy fell and saw a trailer loaded with printed circuits boards.

Nobody was a happy camper at the end of this audit.

OK - my turn. Our company was one of those that would rent a trailer before the audit to hide the products, documents, etc. that they didn't want the auditor to see.

The day of the audit dawned bright and clear and the auditors showed up to begin the audit. They wanted a site tour to include the outside of the building just to get a look at how everything was layed out. At the same time they were outside, a supervisor took a few last minute items out to the trailer to hide. The auditors probably wouldn't have noticed it but the supervisor fell out of the trailer and broke his leg. Needless to say, the auditors came running over to where the guy fell and saw a trailer loaded with printed circuits boards.

Nobody was a happy camper at the end of this audit.

I think the auditor should have taken your certificate off the wall and taken it home. I came close at least one time. I had the cert lying on the conference room table at the closing meeting due to some continuing problems. I had heard the President had commented that I wouldn't pull it because no registrar wants to lose business. Top Management was much more attentive when they saw that, and I informed them I had already arranged permission with my office to bring it home...:notme:

I think the auditor should have taken your certificate off the wall and taken it home. I came close at least one time. I had the cert lying on the conference room table at the closing meeting due to some continuing problems. I had heard the President had commented that I wouldn't pull it because no registrar wants to lose business. Top Management was much more attentive when they saw that, and I informed them I had already arranged permission with my office to bring it home...:notme:

I totally agree. I was hoping they would but the management that approved that little venture was let go and I was already looking for another job at the time so that gave me the push I needed. Not the kind of company you want to be associated with. The auditor went back three months later (from what I hear) and walked all over the place to make sure that nothing was being hidden.

I totally agree. I was hoping they would but the management that approved that little venture was let go and I was already looking for another job at the time so that gave me the push I needed. Not the kind of company you want to be associated with. The auditor went back three months later (from what I hear) and walked all over the place to make sure that nothing was being hidden.

Excellent to hear! Also, kudos to the auditor for going the extra mile.

I think the auditor should have taken your certificate off the wall and taken it home. I came close at least one time. I had the cert lying on the conference room table at the closing meeting due to some continuing problems. I had heard the President had commented that I wouldn't pull it because no registrar wants to lose business. Top Management was much more attentive when they saw that, and I informed them I had already arranged permission with my office to bring it home...While that makes for interesting reading, I would like to offer a word of caution. Certification Bodies have to follow established processes (and procedures) for de-certification proceedings. Just like a lead auditor does not issue certificates on the spot, they are not (normally) authorized to de-certify a registrant at will. There should be an escalation process with appropriate review at the CB managerial levels before a certificate is revoked.

Years ago a north-american CB filed a lawsuit against RAB (at that time) for failure to follow established procedures when of their AS9100 accreditation suspension. They settled out of court, eventually.

A CB who does not follow their own established processes for de-certification proceedings would be inviting a legal action, as well. So be careful out there, CB auditors, before you start yanking the certificates from the lobby wall. :cool:

While that makes for interesting reading, I would like to offer a word of caution. Certification Bodies have to follow established processes (and procedures) for de-certification proceedings. Just like a lead auditor does not issue certificates on the spot, they are not (normally) authorized to de-certify a registrant at will. There should be an escalation process with appropriate review at the CB managerial levels before a certificate is revoked.

Years ago a north-american CB filed a lawsuit against RAB (at that time) for failure to follow established procedures when of their AS9100 accreditation suspension. They settled out of court, eventually.

A CB who does not follow their own established processes for de-certification proceedings would be inviting a legal action, as well. So be careful out there, CB auditors, before you start yanking the certificates from the lobby wall. :cool:

Thanks, that is a valid reminder. The registrar has a formal procedure that would have been followed, but the theatrics were for dramatic effect, and it made the point pretty well.

OK - my turn. Our company was one of those that would rent a trailer before the audit to hide the products, documents, etc. that they didn't want the auditor to see.

The day of the audit dawned bright and clear and the auditors showed up to begin the audit. They wanted a site tour to include the outside of the building just to get a look at how everything was layed out. At the same time they were outside, a supervisor took a few last minute items out to the trailer to hide. The auditors probably wouldn't have noticed it but the supervisor fell out of the trailer and broke his leg. Needless to say, the auditors came running over to where the guy fell and saw a trailer loaded with printed circuits boards.

Nobody was a happy camper at the end of this audit.Or happy hiker, either, I'll bet!;)
Thanks, that is a valid reminder. The registrar has a formal procedure that would have been followed, but the theatrics were for dramatic effect, and it made the point pretty well.
Thanks for confirming what I thought - just a piece of "stage business," because I was pretty sure the rules for certifying and accrediting bodies provide for "due process."

...Thanks for confirming what I thought - just a piece of "stage business," because I was pretty sure the rules for certifying and accrediting bodies provide for "due process."

Oh, a little dramatic perhaps, but I was fully prepared to take the cert with me. Then the registrar would have gone through the regular process to decertify and delist them.

How about this one:
At a Honeywell facility back east, contracted to the undersea Navy, we were hosting a group of auditors from the Fleet Assessment Center (FLTAC). A total of about 20 auditors in total.

We set up a special area for them with desks and phones in preparation for their 2 week long visit.

The desks were recommissioned from our warehouse, cleaned up and equipped as best we could for the Navy's marathon assessment.

The lead auditor upon selecting his desk and trying out his chair for relative comfort, proceeded to open his desk drawers at which point he found a bag of electrical components with absolutely no identification on them. He immediately held up the bag and announced to the team that he had discovered his first finding.

I guess you can assume how the rest of the 2 weeks went.

Bob