Which is more important to a Quality Professional - MBA or Six Sigma Black Belt?

Why?

I've had a lot of requests for SS Black Belt, but none for an MBA.

I see the situation strictly as one of supply and demand. Organizations see a glut of MBA's and have narrowed the field in their candidate searches by concentrating on only candidates from 1st and 2nd tier schools.

Conversely, 6S Black Belts are in short supply and hiring officers haven't got enough experience to be able to discriminate between candidates who receive a BB certificate from ASQ or some consultant who set up a diploma mill.

In the short term, a BB certificate from any source will open more doors than any of the other ASQ certificates or MBA's (possible exception - MBA concentrated in Quality from a first or second tier school.)

I expect the fad for BB will be relaced by another fad in the next few years. Essentially, the problem is that hiring officers are easily swayed by propaganda in newspapers and trade journals. BB folk have a great publicity machine and it's so good, ASQ has nearly abandoned its own publicity in favor of jumping on the 6S bandwagon.

Heck, ASQ administers the Malcom Baldrige National Quality Award and yet gives more ink and bandwidth in its publications and website to 6S than to MBNQA.

Since this is an open poll, I'll breifly explain why: same reasons as Wes stated, plus it is closer to the disciplines a quality professional wil use day after day.

I voted SS, although I have neither (nor even a bachelor's degree) and I''m doing just fine. The SS credentials will open more doors, for precisely the reasons that Wes offered. The MBA has been so watered down that I don't believe it's as strong a factor as it was before they started handing them out on street corners.

...6S Black Belts are in short supply and hiring officers haven't got enough experience to be able to discriminate between candidates who receive a BB certificate from ASQ or some consultant who set up a diploma mill.

I don't think there's much evidence that HR people need to be able to discriminate to that degree. Like the MBA, the ASQ imprimatur has lost much of its luster due to the number of clearly unqualified people who proudly display ASQ certificates on their walls.

I have been in a variety of companies, and the lack of an MBA has never been an issue. I did, as a matter of self-improvement begin pursuit of an MBA. However, after getting half way through (with high grades lest you thick "sour grapes") I found that I had an issue with the MBA curriculum in general.

The MBA curriculum teaches very short term (should I say short-sighted?) thinking that directly conflicts with the quality philosophy of continual improvement with the long term in mind.

If you want an advanced degree, get it in Quality Management.

I have been in a variety of companies, and the lack of an MBA has never been an issue. I did, as a matter of self-improvement begin pursuit of an MBA. However, after getting half way through (with high grades lest you thick "sour grapes") I found that I had an issue with the MBA curriculum in general.

The MBA curriculum teaches very short term (should I say short-sighted?) thinking that directly conflicts with the quality philosophy of continual improvement with the long term in mind.

If you want an advanced degree, get it in Quality Management.
I guess that curriculum "bias" may be more aligned with a particular school or even just the then current faculty. Certainly, the "Chicago School" practiced at the University of Chicago is focused on the macro- and long term views and end goals rather than on short-term achievements. Not much has changed since I went there in the early 60's in terms of philosphy. (Note this discourse specifically excludes so-called Executive MBA programs which seem to be more aimed at separating fools from their money than helping them learn stuff to help them run any organization (profit, nonprofit, government.)

In my opinion, if you aren't aiming to be the CEO of an organization, you really don't need to spend the money to go to a top tier school like Harvard or University of Chicago. If you try to leverage an MBA from one of the on-line schools to be a CEO, you get all the "book-learning," but you miss the interaction on a day-to-day basis with the type of folks who will be your collaborators and competitors in years to come. The intangibles of those connections and networking opportunities really do come in handy if you want to move beyond "talented staff member" to line officer.

Which is best depends on the rest of your education, training & experience, and what you aspire to be. Six Sigma is obviously a lot narrower in scope, and a good fit to someone who likes the performance improvement track. MBA is broader and more strategic in nature, and more attuned to someone looking at becoming a general manager, etc. Either could be useful for someone who plans on consulting, but services offered would perhaps differ.

I voted SS, although I have neither (nor even a bachelor's degree) and I''m doing just fine. The SS credentials will open more doors, for precisely the reasons that Wes offered. The MBA has been so watered down that I don't believe it's as strong a factor as it was before they started handing them out on street corners.



I agree with JSW. SS will currently open doors. It is hotter right now. The surveys I've seen suggest that Master Black Belts generally make higher incomes than many MBA's as well.

Most MBA's have nothing to offer other than having an MBA, whereas a SSBB actually knows how to do stuff.

The average MBA out there is some stud (or studette for you ladies) in his/her 20's early 30's that hasn't done anything but go to school (maybe a bit of work here or there). You don't learn real stuff in school, the learning takes place after in the school of hard knocks. A good SSBB will pay for himself in short time.

The MBA is important, but there has to be something under the wrapper.

I agree with Randy wholeheartedly.

Working for a company that put a lot of stock in MBA's when we were in our infancy, has really hurt us in the long run. They are "book smart" but not "street smart". They had implemented programs, data collection and whatnot from an office and then for the life of them could not figure out why the data did not correlate. They never asked the operator or the data gatherer. THEY HAD AN MBA, THEY DID NOT NEED HELP. Never mind it was an impossible task, in theory it looked great, and here is my famous response to theories; "In theory an elephant can hang by his tail from a dandelion off the side of a cliff."

I am currently enrolled in the Ohio State University Fisher School of Business SSBB program, so not only do I get a top tier education and diploma, I get real practical experience and my employer is tickled pink (even though he went to Michigan :biglaugh: )

I highly recommend this OSU program to any of you out there, forget MBA's. They have to prove some value before I hire another one at their inflated salaries and egos.

Just some thoughts.....

Most MBA's have nothing to offer other than having an MBA, whereas a SSBB actually knows how to do stuff.
I could agree with that statement if the word "allegedly" were substituted for "actually." Over the past couple of weeks I've spent about 10 hours with a BB (with GE experience and training) explaining the raw basics of experimentation and normal-curve statistics ("There are three primary measures of central tendency..."), and this person is working on a significant project. Altough she's a bright and perceptive person and will eventually do well, as of the moment she does not know how to do stuff. She did get her job by merit of her SSBB credentials though (at least in large part), and an MBA wouldn't have helped much in that regard. Hence my answer to the poll that the BB is more valuable, although it has no intrinsic value.

I'll go along with you Jim...I'll qualify my previous post by adding that the average BB has more practical experience to put into the stew than the average MBA in today's environment.

GEEK!!! You mean you wouldn't hire me:( I've got an MBA.:D And where I come from a BB is something to hold up your britches.

I'll go along with you Jim...I'll qualify my previous post by adding that the average BB has more practical experience to put into the stew than the average MBA in today's environment.

GEEK!!! You mean you wouldn't hire me:( I've got an MBA.:D And where I come from a BB is something to hold up your britches.

I wouldn't hold an MBA against anyone unless it was of the obvious diploma-mill variety. At the same time, one of the (apparently) unexpected consequences of an MBA degree is the perception that the holder might be overqualified for many quality positions. Once the luster of the BB wears off (and it will) it can be put in the closet and ignored. Not so with academic credentials, where failure to disclose could cause problems.

Not surprising seh doesn't knwo the basics form GE. depending on the business and when in the program (early training was stringent, later training was 'pass thru') you could very well versed or not even remember going to class! such is the reality of larger companies!

Which is more important to a Quality Professional - MBA or Six Sigma Black Belt?

Why?

I am going to say both.

I see Six sigma methodologies OR similar Breakthrough improvement methodologies as a subset of a well-designed MBA program.

A well-designed MBA Program will assist a Quality Professional to do the right job. Six sigma/ equivalent knowledge assist the Professional to do the job right. I see them complementing each other than competing.

Regards,
Govind.

I said SSBB because that's the buzzword right now ... but times and situations change.

Ten to 15 years ago (when the ink on my ASQ CQE was still damp) I would occasionally see job offers for "BS or MS in [job-related field] engineering and 5 years experience; or ASQ CQE." And then along came the same package of knowledge,skills and ablilities all wrapped up in an expesive and flashy new set of buzzwords and pushed by high-paid slick salesmen ... and all of a sudden you can't get anything if you are not a BB. And remember that this was the in-house methodology Motorola used to earn the Baldrige Award and one of the conditions is that they are required make their methodology publicly available. (Except for trade secrets, of course.) Most companies just publish a report, or write a book ... but I see I'm ranting and raving again.

At some point I'm going to start on an advanced degree. It may very well be an MBA provided I can find somewhere I can combine it with some kind of Quality Management degree work. It won't help me in my current job but it may help in the future as my own "Inc." gets more work and becomes stronger. Times and situations change. Besides, my wife gets her BA in December and I have to set a new benchmark for her to chase after ... :D

What you need is a product of where you are in the life cycle, what your future goals are, and what you need to achieve them. And about this time on a Friday afternoon I need this: :beerdive:

I don't think this group has much respect for MBAs.

I believe which one you choose should be based on your individual goals. If you have no intention of ever leaving Quality, the SS is probably better. If you want an upper level management position, the MBA may be a better choice. It also depends on where you want to work. Some companies have no interest in SS and love MBAs, others love SS and hate MBAs, other companies have a high respect for both credentials and still other companies don't see a need for either.

Where do you want to be in the future? What are the requirements for that position?

I don't think this group has much respect for MBAs.

I believe which one you choose should be based on your individual goals. If you have no intention of ever leaving Quality, the SS is probably better. If you want an upper level management position, the MBA may be a better choice. It also depends on where you want to work. Some companies have no interest in SS and love MBAs, others love SS and hate MBAs, other companies have a high respect for both credentials and still other companies don't see a need for either.

Where do you want to be in the future? What are the requirements for that position?
It's not a matter of respect - it is how the original question was posed, including the qualifier "to a Quality Professional."

The reality is based on which credential has more value for a Quality professional.

I don't think this group has much respect for MBAs.


Where do you want to be in the future? What are the requirements for that position?


I don't really see where you're coming from here bubba...I think I have a moderate Quality, better yet, Systems background which both compliments and is compimented by my MBA

As for where I want to be in the future..the same place most everyone in my age group who lives in Arkansas...I aspire to be a Wal Mart Greeter!:lmao:

You'd think as an MBA that you'd know the difference between a complement (something that completes, fills up, or rounds out) and a compliment (an expression of respect, affection, or regards). :lol:

Unless of course your Systems Background walked in and said to your MBA, "my, you're looking fit today". To which the MBA replied, "and, S.B., you are looking mighty well, also". :rolleyes:

Don't get mad Randy. I meant that as a complement. :truce:

Who's running this cheap operashun and how come we ain't got no spell chekkur?

I think it shows a sad state of affairs with the quality profession when a CQE certification is looked down upon but a "Black Belt" is highly sought after. :(

A CQE should know and should be able to use every tool that a black belt does. :yes:

6-sigma has just taken the basic tools, applied business principals to them and has sold a bill of goods that has caused even ASQ to go running after it.

I find it funny that if you are a "certified" black belt from a different organization, ASQ will not recognize it and "grant" you a black belt certificate until you pass ASQ's test.

It is a fad just like TQM, SPC and the like. Everyone offers 6-sigma training with no "standardized" program.

I would take a CQE that believed in applying Deming's prinicples over any black belt.

I've been answering ads of late, and noting a definite upswing in demand for 6S BB and Master BB in Maine.

I do not think they know much about what they're asking for, though. I don't bother to apply and try to explain that as a CQE I am as qualified. They know the acronym and insist it's what they want.

But it is unfortunately not enough. I recall a 6SBB, GE trained, who was hired to work his miracles in an area manufacturer of radio towers and equipment. Conversations with his subordinates revealed a level of derision that indicated the BB was not providing the necessary magic to bring organizational improvement. The BB moved on in the next year without having made clear progress.

When the 6SBB learns to incorporate behavior and culture (arguably there is a psychological component to quality, which is one reason why "man" is the first of the 3-Ms) into its scope we may see movement away from the term "fad" and into a durable and robust method.

I predict it won't happen. I just answer other ads.

My two cents:
There is no "one true way" of 6S, just as there is no one true way to God [despite what some claim.]

My position is simply: if you are an ASQ-certified QE, you are as qualified to do the "6S thing" for an organization as any BB, regardless WHO bestowed that certificate.

If you like everything else about the job opening, simply claim you ARE a BB, if you have the necessary grounding in DMAIC and DOE and SPC. Not a whole lot of difference between PDCA and DMAIC, is there?

Note: even ASQ does not have a MBB designation!

My two cents:
There is no "one true way" of 6S, just as there is no one true way to God [despite what some claim.]

My position is simply: if you are an ASQ-certified QE, you are as qualified to do the "6S thing" for an organization as any BB, regardless WHO bestowed that certificate.

If you like everything else about the job opening, simply claim you ARE a BB, if you have the necessary grounding in DMAIC and DOE and SPC. Not a whole lot of difference between PDCA and DMAIC, is there?

Note: even ASQ does not have a MBB designation!
_________________________________________________________
I agree with Wes if your a ASQ CQE you should be equally qualified to BB. Yesterday I took the test that ASQ offer for SSGB & being a CQE I passed the test without any preparations.

I think it shows a sad state of affairs with the quality profession when a CQE certification is looked down upon but a "Black Belt" is highly sought after. :(


Don't feel bad, I look down on everybody equally:lol: (Comes from my law enforcement days I guess)

Don't feel bad, I look down on everybody equally:lol: (Comes from my law enforcement days I guess)
As short as you are, Randy, you'd have to carry a box to stand on to look down on anyone, even a shorty like me. Quality goddess, on the other hand, is tall enough that you and I would have to stand on boxes to look her in the eye!:biglaugh:

it all boils to specialization, so quality is for quality.

:notme:

you will know yourself the area, which you like more and wish to grow.

i agree with my kababayan. I bet MBA and select a specialization with good market value.

6S is the biggest buzz. Some very good observations have already been posted.

It is interesting that those who have Black Belts from Motorola, G.E., or AlliedSignal rate seem to be rated above any other BB certification and this seems well recognized by most recruiters (I was AlliedSignal trained as well as a former ASQ CQE/CQA).

I found that the Black Belt statistical disciplines, as are many Quality initiatives, are re-packaged existing techniques that have been around from before the mid-70's.

Genuine enthusiasm and a passion for Quality trump any certification or training every time.

I also voted SS, although I have neither (nor even a bachelor's degree) and I''m doing just fine.

rgs

Do you know any universities that offer Master of Business Administration (M.B.A) in Six Sigma?:lmao:

I also voted SS, although I have neither (nor even a bachelor's degree) and I''m doing just fine.

rgs
I also have neither and have a worked for some great companies. It's my hands on manufacturing experience and passion for continuous improvement that makes me an effective Quality Manager and keeps me employed long after the empty suits are gone.

As I look through the help wanted ads, I see more positions requiring Six Sigma certification than anything else.

Hi , I am quite new here , I have interest to go SS , I was just curious how many SSGB and SSBB are there now, and the rates of people sitting and actualy passing the SSGB to people who need to re-sit .. any idea where I can get this info?
thanks

Hi , I am quite new here , I have interest to go SS , I was just curious how many SSGB and SSBB are there now, and the rates of people sitting and actualy passing the SSGB to people who need to re-sit .. any idea where I can get this info?
thanksWelcome to the Cove! :bigwave:

Mary Martin, Exams Administrator for ASQ, has reported that the passing rate for ASQ's CSSBB was 73% in Fall 2008. That should give you some idea.

Of course there are many places to get SSBB certified. I don't have the cert, though I expect to get it next year. Here in the Cove you will find a number of us do have the cert, and a number of us do not hold much stock in it. The SSBB is among the top most spirited discussion topics of all. You can browse threads on the subject by checking out the related thread links at the bottom of this page, as well as the pages the links open.

Good hunting, and I hope to see you around some more!

According to me a six sigma black belt person will be given the job as compared to MBA. Because in MBA only the theoretical knowledge is given where as six sigma will be helpful for the individual to look a practical perspective of industry.

Do you guys think that eventually SS should be incorporated into all MBA programs?

Do you guys think that eventually SS should be incorporated into all MBA programs?

It depends on the degree (pun intended) of incorporation. Certainly some sort of awareness would be a good thing, but I would rather see MBAs (and most high school graduates, for that matter) have at least a basic understanding of business/industrial statistics.

From an old-school business perspective, the MBA from a credible institution has a distinct advantage. For utilizing the MBA, it is wise to be in the current market's mindset by getting an ASQ CSSBB. The black belt will allow one to communicate throughout all levels of this "new era" of six-sigma.

At the very least, an MBA needs six-sigma sponsorship training.
Obviously, the CSSBB is not that difficult to attain compared to an MBA.
This alone could inspire an individual to seek the black belt first.

Bottom line...
More is always better.
:)

BB for the QUALITY PROFESSIONAL. Not all Quality Professionals are in the level of business to utilize an MBA. Most Quality Positions I see posted do not ask for an MBA but an Engineering or Chemistry Degree. Very many postings ask for BB and Engineering.

MBA would definately be more applicable than my degree. I have a Bachelors in Religious Education (while preaching and prayer is a critical part of all our jobs, well that or drinking, not very helpful except the small stats section) and two ASQ Certifications CQE & CSSGB. I hope to finish my projects and get my BB next March through ASQ.

Mark

You know, anymore, I feel like MBAs are only worth it if you don't have to pay for it. My generation is getting really shafted with that coming out of school owing 100k for post graduate degrees that take 20-30 years to pay off, not to mention keeping up with the cost of living while on your own while trying to go to school will destroy you. I see it happening to my friends and it deters me.

This is a great article arguing against grad school.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2008/06/18/seven-reasons-why-graduate-school-is-outdated/

Thought for food.

I might have a unique perspective since I have an engineering degree and MBA with SSBB and I also teach at the MBA level. I voted the black belt certification mainly because the question was which is more important to a quality professional. If Marc would have listed the CQE I probably would have chosen it for the same reason.

The MBA is supposed to give you the next level of training in business theory. Unfortunately it has become just another degree to list on your resume. I have had a wide variety of students and some have had no business courses in their undergraduate degree. For them, the MBA would fit in nicely with a quality certification but I am not convinced it is critical. If you want to move into other positions in a company the MBA is probably more important.

Anytime you increase your knowledge it probably will be of value. Whether you get one or the other or both is dependent on what your career goals are. After you set career goals than you would need to build experience that supports those goals. At that point, you would become more valuable to your current company or another.

Bill Pflanz

I'd tend to agree with Bill. My personal education background is a BS in Metallurgy from CMU and an MBA from the University of Pittsburgh. Lots of quality training, and 2 current certs - CQA and CQM/OE. That said, what has really gotten companies interested in any recent job search is the BS from CMU and I feel I've missed some opportunities because of no formal six sigma training/certification, never mind that I can point to a solid history of going in to a position and making consistent process improvements of 10 to 20% a year with resultant increased productivity and associated cost savings. Currently back after a lay-off, the only 1 of 8 recalled, and primarily because of the metallurgy degree and the wrought steel product experience.

You know, anymore, I feel like MBAs are only worth it if you don't have to pay for it. My generation is getting really shafted with that coming out of school owing 100k for post graduate degrees that take 20-30 years to pay off ...

I am not really sure what is being debated in this thread.

An MBA (person who has pursued a graduate management education) has been trained to analyze and select among alternative actions relating to business issues, just as a degreed engineer (whether graduate or otherwise) has been trained to analyze for the purpose of technical problem solving.

If your reasons for pursuing an MBA include things such as merely believing it will put you ahead of "the game" without having any passion for business, it can be a very hollow accomplishment and you may never realize the rewards you seek.

However, I am not sure either the individual or the company is willing to "pay for it." It requires more than money for the individual and companies would rather steal talent than develop it in their own organizations. Yes, lifelong learning is a reality for anyone today regardless of what generation you belong to. Companies are looking for more than the same BS, but who wants to take the risk when so many people train for careers they will never participate in and/or have little interest in increasing their real capabilities.

On the other hand, Six Sigma Black Belts (SSBBs) are the MBAs of process improvement. Companies want to train people to "think statistically", but are unsure whether they want to "pay for it." Individuals may not want to "pay for it" by seeing a project through to its successful conclusion.

Thinking of the ASQ CSSBB, I so often see threads where people wish to sit for the exam without any experience in process improvement. These individuals seek to find a shortcut to the "certification" without ever really doing the work. Tell me which primer will help me understand an entire curriculum of statistics, optimization, and experimental design without having to do the work?:frust:

Why train a SSBB when a Green Belt or Yellow Belt or some other monochromatic Belt will do? Again, people and companies can see it as a means to an end, when in either case (SSBB or MBA), it should be a transformation process in the way people think.

As you might have guessed, I took the road less traveled and hold "both." It has not been a golden ticket, but it has changed the way I think and view the world. An MBA cannot resist thinking of ways to promote a businesss strategy, just as a SSBB cannot resist looking for ways to promote process improvement. And for those industrial engineers among us (and the similar CQE vs. CSSBB debate), many of the Six Sigma and Lean "tools" have been available for use prior to the inception of the Six Sigma methodology. However, in the beginning, Six Sigma was the mandate to use them and not take any actions without firmly validating y = f(x).