I received an e-mail with a question. I replied with a short answer and suggested that the person ask in the forums rather than trust my 'opinion' on the question.

I received this in a response e-mail: > You know I went to the forums and this area is very time consuming. It seems
> as if you do not utilitize lean manufacturing (which is what we use for
> assembly lines to keep them running at a easy operation and flow.) Also by the
> time you read the information to get in to the forums you are ready to call
> it quits! This is not a continuous flow exercise.
> Well just wanted to give my opinion on the matter because this
> issue has been bothering me and I had to get up the courage to right.

Is there something I can do to address this? What are your thoughts?

Is there something I can do to address this? What are your thoughts?I'm glad that the sender took the time to tell us about this. Is the Cove complex? I think it must be, when you consider the amount of information here. Can it be made less confusing? Probably... We all know that nothing is perfect and anything can be improved.

I wonder if the sender has posted specific questions or just searched the forums in vain?

My problem is that I've been around this place for so long that I have a very hard time putting myself in a newbies shoes, no matter how hard I try... Perhaps it's time for a digital brainstorm: How can the Cove be improved?

/Claes

It seems that part of the issue is whether you visit the cove often or occasionaly. When I drop in I usually look at what is being discussed most recently. I think most of the regulars are doing the same.

Unfortunately we have a tendency sometimes to get off subject or threads take humourous turns etc and can get clogged up. This can be a problem when someone is doing a search. Particularly if that person is not a regular, or is fairly new to the cove, or is new to quality.

Searches will pull up a lot of data and it can be tough and time consuming to sort thru it all. I don't know if this is an area that can be improved or not. Just thought I'd throw it out there. I'm sure we can all help by trying to stay on topic in a thread.

Anyway, Thanks for the forum Mark. This is a great topic and, as always, you are looking for ways to improve. Did your "lean mfg" responder have any suggestions?

James

I'm glad that the sender took the time to tell us about this. I agree - Yet -- This a very rare complaint...

I see 3 essential issues:
1. Familiarity with the internet and software such as 'forum' software;
2. Failure to use the Search feature / function.
3. "I want you to do all the reading / research for me."
(aka "Cliff's Notes" / "A Dummies Guide to ...")

I note #3 mainly from: > assembly lines to keep them running at a easy operation and flow.) Also by the
> time you read the information to get in to the forums you are ready to call
> it quits! This is not a continuous flow exercise. In the early years I tried to keep the number of forums low to keep confusion at a minimum. But... Not so long ago I went through the 'We need a forum for this..." exercise which many of you probably remember.

And - I get a LOT of personal e-mails - At least several a day - And obviously I do not have the time to answer every question personally, which I try to explain briefly, and I refer them to the forum.

Comments??

I'm glad that the sender took the time to tell us about this. Is the Cove complex? I think it must be, when you consider the amount of information here. Can it be made less confusing? Probably... We all know that nothing is perfect and anything can be improved.

I wonder if the sender has posted specific questions or just searched the forums in vain?

My problem is that I've been around this place for so long that I have a very hard time putting myself in a newbies shoes, no matter how hard I try... Perhaps it's time for a digital brainstorm: How can the Cove be improved?

/Claes

Obviously I am in the same position as Claes.
Did the poster want info on "lean", then there is a forum and he could focus there.
The fact that there are so many forums should enable the newbie to focus on his specific interest and find that in a more formatted manner.

I have also noticed that I get questions by E-mail and usually suggest that they post them, I am not sure if this is not an easy way out for people to get an answer to a specific problem without trying to work for it.

I still maintain that self learning is the most effective and thus the initial searching is as valuable, if not more so, as the specific answer.

I think that despite the initial problems to acclimatize the benefits of being in the community are well worth it.

Some people may think it's too much effort to read the forums for the information they need, but the majority know it is worth the effort. This is probably the best source for exchange of quality information and ideas and the people who want "instant answers" will spend even more time finding a forum with half the resources. It would be wonderful if you could type in an "Ask Jeeves" question and get an instant answer but that isn't what is offered here. Personally, I don't like the idea of the Cove being "Lean". I like the discussion, the different ideas and the interaction experienced while browsing the different forums. For those who want instant answers, let them pay thousands and buy an interactive program that better suits their resource needs.

Lean manufacturing is a nice concept but like any good thing, it won't work until you prepare it, develop it and put it in motion. If you stand with your arms flung wide and shout "Come and get me Lean", you will be standing and shouting for a long time. The same applies to the resources at the Cove. Once you are used to the Cove, it isn't hard to search for and find answers to practically any question you have. Like anything worth having, you have to be willing to invest some time to become familiar with how to find your way around. The Cove, as it is, will give you tremendous value for the time invested.

Just my opinion.

Dave

Is there something I can do to address this? What are your thoughts?
If the person were complaining about it being difficult to search for information I might be able to see the point. But he asked a question and was advised to post it in the forums and complained that that was too difficult, and not "lean" enough. I think it's pretty amazing how quickly questions get answered here, and when a query goes unanswered for any amount of time it's almost always because the question is about some issue that's very technical and only peripherally related to quality, or the question is unintelligible.

Wow. At the risk of offending the original poster, not every tool can be applied to every problem. I don't believe that Marc ever intended Elsmar.com BE a continuous flow exercise (correct me if I'm wrong). If you have read "The Goal" by Eli Goldratt, you will recognize that there are a lot of "Herbies" here. No offense, but we were all newbies once and it seems that eliminating the bottlenecks here at the Cove would defeat the purpose.

<LEGEND>Quote: </LEGEND>> You know I went to the forums and this area is very time consuming. It seems
> as if you do not utilitize lean manufacturing (which is what we use for
> assembly lines to keep them running at a easy operation and flow.) Also by the
> time you read the information to get in to the forums you are ready to call
> it quits! This is not a continuous flow exercise.
> Well just wanted to give my opinion on the matter because this
> issue has been bothering me and I had to get up the courage to right.

I wonder if the originator of this e-mail could post here, so we can begin a detailed discussion. Right now, I have a lot of ideas on what this person may or may not be looking for, and I think if we could get a little more info, we could look at improvements.

I realize many folks just want to hit-and-run, we will always have that.

Sounds like this user has a lot of lean experience that we may benefit from.

I don't want to try to get inside the origional poster's head as to whether he is just new, confused, lazy, under the gun or whatever. What I have noted is that the responses are (for the most part) from people who have over 1000 posts to their credit. Those of us who have been around a while are all very intimately aware of how the forums work and probably have been here through a number of server and format changes. It is extremely difficult for us to see it from another's (newbie's) view.

With this in mind, I did an experiment and entered 'Elsmar cove" into my search engine to see what the results were, and where they took me. I must admit that the results were quite precise. I had no trouble winding back up at the forums. So I failed to note anything really confusing or cumbersome.

One thing I might point out as a VERY MINOR point!!! When you open the foum page, you must scroll down to find the actual forums. The top of the page contains interesting facts about who is on line, how many folks have visited etc. Perhaps this is somewhat confusing to some newbies. Like I said, a very minor point.

The poster appeals to lean manufacturing methods, but seems to ignore the "training" necessary to make any such system work. If this person is ready to "quit" instead of learning the system (training) then they may be in the wrong profession.

In all, Mark, it's up to you to look at the overall satisfaction of your customers and weigh if the current complaint has a sufficiant justification to warrant what could be an extensive corrective action.

Also, please do invite the individual to enter the dialog here and suggest solutions. :agree1:

James

The poster appeals to lean manufacturing methods, but seems to ignore the "training" necessary to make any such system work. If this person is ready to "quit" instead of learning the system (training) then they may be in the wrong profession.

Also, please do invite the individual to enter the dialog here and suggest solutions.

James

Excellent points:agree1:

I still consider myself a 'newbie'. In general, I am able to navigate through the forum, and I was never really a user of forums prior to the Cove.

I think the search function works well. I have done some searches using very general keywords, and I get a lot of hits! Then it is up to me to wade through the information to look for the knowledge I seek. If I don't find something in about 10 minutes, I will try an alternate search. After 2 trys, I will then post a question. It is still more interesting to post a question and see what responses I get, than it is to do a search.

I think the only confusing aspect is the page that doesn't show the full forum. People getting there from a Google search might not know to click on the button to take them to the complete forum listing. I just bookmarked the full forum page, and the trouble I was having went away.

Quality Goddess
When I put Elsmar cove into the MSN search engine I got a nice hit for your Quality Blog. Thanks for talking up the place. :applause:

Here's the link:
http://www.flexquality.com/gpage.html

James

Wow. Now you and I are the 2 people who have read my blog. I was just having a little fun with that whole blog page.

I was sincere in my compliments to the Cove. :agree1:

--Jodi

I have to agree with JRKH on this one.
Time for OJT is necessary. That's how I learned to navigate the Cove.
Just look around the different categories, segments and search areas.
Plus...ask specific questions to get help if you need it.
( and don't be thin skinned, nobody here is mean, just sometimes concise, or loquacious as the case may require) JMHO

I received an e-mail with a question. I replied with a short answer and suggested that the person ask in the forums rather than trust my 'opinion' on the question.

I received this in a response e-mail:

Is there something I can do to address this? What are your thoughts?

Well, perhaps here is one of the issues the author was refering to. When you come into the home page for elsmar.com, you have to look a little to find the link to the boards. Frankly, I never thought about this until earlier today. I was coming to the site with a co-worker, and I didn't know the full url to the forums, so I told him to go to elsmar.com. You have to look a bit to find the link to the boards.

I have in my favorites a direct link to the forums, I rarely, if ever, go to the home page.

I'll think about changing the header some, but essentially at the top of every page is a graphic with the links as text. One says something like Elsmar Cove Web Site and the other Elsmar Cove Forums - On on top and the other under it.

Look at the graphic at the top of this page - The web site home page has a similar graphic as do all the pages on the site.

I'll think about changing the header some, but essentially at the top of every page is a graphic with the links as text. One says something like Elsmar Cove Web Site and the other Elsmar Cove Forums - On on top and the other under it.

Look at the graphic at the top of this page - The web site home page has a similar graphic as do all the pages on the site.

I think what happens, (I know it does to me) is that you don't necessarily look at text as a link. So that unless you move your curser over the text and get the little hand to come up, you keep looking for the button or whatever. I know it has happened to me many times. I've gotten better about swinging the curser around whatever page I'm on looking for potential links.

I still would love to hear from the origional poster to see what specific problems he/she is refering to.

James

I also am so used to going to the Forums page (I set it in my browser's bookmarks) that I found myself puzzling through the home page one day. Perhaps it could be more graphic, but that wasn't what I thought I read in the complaint.

This site isn't a free-flowing information source like Ask Jeeves because we're almost all volunteers with various time constraints. I visit much less often than during school breaks; when I come during school session I look at my forums first for questions and messages that need attending. Once in awhile I will bring one back to the Top 20 list (thank you for reestablishing that).

I have tried to explain to someone here and there (not on this site) that a volunteer effort is extremely complex to manage and we can't expect the same things as a commercial enterprise would deliver. That perspective was not well received, but I stand by it. The other side of the coin is that the all-volunteer effort has a far larger diversity than I would ever expect among hired folks. A person who is dissatisfied with the volunteers' result will probably not appreciate this aspect either.

I have also suspected the matter is one of lesser search ability or willingness. Very often the answers I give are derived from rather short Google searches. Perhaps the difference between me and them is an ability to make decisions on what information to use and which is not appropriate. That takes some skill and background knowledge.

The question of information flow begs more specifics. How long was the wait; what did the poster try exactly; was the question quite clear (I have asked for clarification moe than once) and other factors must be explored explicitly for meaningful improvements to be approached.

Perhaps a poll is in order, with an opportunity for posters to anonymously place comments about their Cove experience and succinct suggestions to improve.

Comparing the forums to ask jeeves is like comparing apples to cow chips. Ask jeeves is a search engine while the forums is for discourse. With ask jeeves you get other opinions, but you don't get to express your own. With the cove we all get to express our opinions. One complaint is not a trend and we shouldn't tamper based on one outlier.

:magic: .....Very often the answers I give are derived from rather short Google searches. Perhaps the difference between me and them is an ability to make decisions on what information to use and which is not appropriate. That takes some skill and background knowledge.

Perhaps a poll is in order, with an opportunity for posters to anonymously place comments about their Cove experience and succinct suggestions to improve.

I was here for years before I ever postted. Why? Because I felt there was nothing I could contribute. Nothing left to say.

Any time I needed information, I turned to the Cove. I found "several hours" of searching and reading gave me a wide overview of the topic and several excellent approaches to think about.

The key for me is that I am willing to spend time to explore, read, learn, and think. I do not want the 'one right answer, right now'.

In fact I find the things I learn which are not related to my search are often the most useful and interesting. I'm the same at the Library, I'll walk down the stacks at random and pull any old book to read. Serendipity.

Jennifer, you make an interesting point about the ability to quickly create meaning out of raw information. This is an extremely rare skill, sadly not many have it. The whole World has access to Google, but people still have their "go to" persons for information.

Marc - creating a FAQ from the Cove contents may be an idea for this person...but I have found the people who want the answer don't ever read FAQs either. So it would be a lot of work, with little benefit?

:magic: Jennifer, you make an interesting point about the ability to quickly create meaning out of raw information. This is an extremely rare skill, sadly not many have it. The whole World has access to Google, but people still have their "go to" persons for information.I fear you may be giving me too much credit.

When my posts don't have much body but include links, my recommended information sources are usually meant to provide the depth that I cannot.

Far from being raw information, they are meant to avoid rewriting good things. Of course I choose those with which I connect because of clarity, the right mix of detail and a straightforward approach, relevancy and validity. Once in awhile I can provide a list of reading material that the reader really appreciates and probably would have had a hard time rounding up on his/her own. A question on FEMA for managing water purity comes to mind.

If that makes me special, I'd be happy to receive input on how to use the skill to help me leave my day job! :cool:

Marc - creating a FAQ from the Cove contents may be an idea for this person...but I have found the people who want the answer don't ever read FAQs either. So it would be a lot of work, with little benefit? Well, there is a FAQ and a forum with 'vBulletin software operating' specifics (such as how to start a thread to ask a question). Making a FAQ of the contents would be quite a task. Not to mention the content is constantly changing.

I really think it's an issue of different aspects including peoples experience(s) on the internet and with different kinds of software, their willingness to search and spend time reading, their overall expectations, etc.

I do know that there is no way to please everyone, not to mention to meet everyone's expectations. None the less, feedback never hurts.

I see the forums as sorta like a library. There is a lot of information here, but one has to do some searching and one has to be ready to do some reading. And everything is not 'perfectly' categorized in part because many threads could fit in several 'forums'.

I briefly 'collapsed' the forum home last night but today I changed it back (I had moved a few people's cheese). I agree that the extended format if 'better', but possibly because its what I'm used to seeing. The collapsed format did make the forums (categories if you will) easier to see by nature of it being a summary or index.

:applause: :applause:
I think that this thread is the essence of the cove, a serious and immediate discussion ( 20 posts in less than 20 hours) as to whether there is a problem and if there is how to improve it by people who are interested in an intellectual manner.
Why does this not work so easily in the workplace:bonk:

I fully agree with Howards view. This thread is an excellent example of how the Cove works: Throw out some bait and we generally decend on it like hungry fish.

In this case Marc tossed out a question and a great discussion followed almost instantaneously. Lots of good points have been made here (as usual).:applause:

I also agree with the view that this is not a problem, :agree1: but as I said, just look at the discussion it sparked off.

/Claes

I absolutely agree with the others. The fact that the origional person has not jumped in indicates they must have gone somewhere else. Also no one has come on to indicate any real problems they have had. Some of us have done a bit of research to try and see what the problem might be and really haven't come up with anything of real substance. There is always tweeking that can be done.

Mark, you know that we all appreciate the job you've done on these forums but lets say it one more time. It's THE BEST place to come for answers, solice, support, a good laugh, and comaraderie. The numbers prove it.

:applause: :yes: :applause: :yes: :applause: :yes:

Does anyone have any contemporary cmments on this topic?