I moderate a group who meet regularly to discuss what Quality is. In one meeting, the topic of Motivation came up. Interesting dialogue ensued.

The sticking point for many was the question of whether or not money is a motivator. I would like to hear the forum members thoughts on this.

Regards,

Kevin

Hi - Kevin: Interesting question
IMHO: “it depends” – I’ve always been under the impression that the answer to money as a motivating factors is dependant upon where one falls on Maslow’s hierarchy.

1) Physiological: hunger, thirst, bodily comforts, etc.; - $ Definitely a factor & Huge motivator
2) Housing/Safety/security: out of danger; - $ Most Likely a solid Motivator
3) Belonginess and Love: affiliate with others, be accepted; - $ May or may not be a motivator
4) Esteem: to achieve, be competent, gain approval and recognition. - $ Probably plays a part in motivation
5) Cognitive: to know, to understand, and explore; - $ begins to become less of a motivator
6) Aesthetic: symmetry, order, and beauty; - $ as motivation become a small or neutral issue
7) Self-actualization: to find self-fulfillment and realize one's potential; - $ are most likely not a motivator
8) Transcendence: to help others find self-fulfillment and realize their potential. - $ Not a motivator at all.

Other interesting viewpoints and reading materials speaking to this can be found here:
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html)

Regards
Jim

My opinion is money is typically a temporary motivator. 'How much' it motivates and for how long is another matter. Is the person in a current financial 'hole'? How is the economy doing in general?

My experience has been that you can scratch an itch and relieve the problem for only a short period of time.

For all intents, I think Jim addressed the details. I was not thinking about Maslow's works. Good summary.

Good stuff gentlemen! I used Maslow and Herzberg's theories to try and explain my position. Before I do, I will throw out a contribution from Herzberg.

Salary is identified by Herzberg as a Hygiene Factor, not a Motivational Factor.

Does this change anything?

Regards,

Kevin

It seems to me that the lack or absence of money is more of a Motivator than actually having it.

Money does place one in a better "comfort zone", and the desire for that comfort motivates.....not the cash itself.

Kinda like a dog chasing a car. Once the dog catches it, it is no longer any fun..

Humans only have 2 real motivators and they are...

1) The acquisition of wealth or power and
2)the fulfillment of sexual/sensual pleasures or desire.

I came to that conclusion after spending many years putting people into prison.

It boils down to controlling you own destiny/being the boss (which makes #2 appropriate) and/or just feeling good. No if's, and's or but's.

Think about what really drives you in your endeavors and my theory will check out...

I always find Maslow handy to use.
Herzberg has his wires crossed.
Sex is a primary need, salary is not.
Salary (as has been pointed out here and many other places) is a temporary motivator.

There are 2 things you don't muck up on with your employees, their pay, and their pay. Try short-changing someone in their pay and see how motivated they are!


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All good interesting contributions, and i have been lucky enough to test and evaluate some of these theories on my employees, and i am sorry to say that theorey has sometimes fallen short of reality. Ill give you a couple of examples to pull apart.

In one particular company where i worked, when people earned more than 6000 Dm per month INCLUDING OVERTIME, after a discussion with Personnel that person was put on a fixed salary at or above 6000Dm. So what do you think happened? By my estimation more than half the people visibly reduced the overtime that they were working after obtaining a fixed salary.

Second example - I always preach that the best way to move employees or management is with money. Another company was trying to get their engineering HoDs to use Credit Cards to order Low Value Goods directly without going over Purchase. 'we are not doing Purchasings job' was the answer. By coincidence three months later a Cost Accounting System was set up whereby each dept charged each other for their services. As soon as Engieering saw how much Purchase was charging them per order they were banging at the Purchase Managers door trying to get the Credit Cards.

We live in a consumer society, everything that we want to do or have costs. The more money we have the more we can do or have. Sorry, but i beleive that money talks much louder than we are prepared to admit. I am currently in the process of building a second company. And the whole pay structure is largely based on bonuses tied to the success fo the company. I wouldnt consider to do it any other way.

And another point. The people at the top of Maslows pyramid, how do they measure or judge self-fulfilment? The best way in this modern society is wealth.

Just another view

Regards

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Andy B

It's impossible to generalize on what motivates people, because everyone is absolutely unique. Some people are highly motivated by money, but others are motiviated by the security of having enough to meet their needs.

Money, alone, it typically not a motivator.

Jerry

Andy raises the point of comparison I really wished to discuss - the difference between Movement and Motivation. Other posts raise this to, but Andy uses the word 'move' directly.

In Andy's post, he mentions that the best way to 'move' employees and management is by using money. Personally, I agree with others that money may motivate on lower levels of Maslow's pyramid (Jim's comments apply). Latter comments on money demotivating are equally appropriate, but the thought that comes to mind is that this fits nicely with Herzberg's Hygeine Factors.

Herzberg has written that motivated employees work more hours, not less, which raises the question why folks where Andy once worked worked fewer hours once attaining a salaried position. The game was clear: establish yourself as a high variable cost, get put into a fixed cost bracket. They were motivated by making more, not earning more. They were motivated to get the next pay increase (same pay, fewer hours). Herzberg suggests that things once called benefits are now considered rights. I think he is right on this point.

This also leads to the dangers of bonus programs (sorry Andy). The use of external motivators such as money (which I suggest is a tool for movement and not a motivator) leads to folks focusing on the prize and not the work. Shortcuts will often be used, manipulation of data, and other nonpositive techniques. How does a System improve if folks focus on prizes instead of the AIM of the system? Bonuses generally lead to more bonuses or bigger ones. Intrinsic behavior is not instilled in the employee/manager. This, for me, is the wrong type of enforcement.

Bribing folks to do their work is the wrong approach. Unfortunately, practice today is not to promote intrinsic behavior, but to rely on external prodding (soft with money, or hard by a threat of expulsion) which is movement. Still, organizations must achieve the Hygeine level or Maslows first two teirs.

Andy's data is unfortunately accurate in my estimation. People expect rewards. They have been taught this over and over again.

Regards,

Kevin

You guys are using a lot of electrons (words) to expand on my premise of motivation....

(1) The acquisition of wealth or power...

(2) The fulfillment of sensual or sexual (whichever you prefer) pleasure or desire....

Everything can be reduced to those 2 prime motivators....Just think about them and break them down.....

I'm fulfilling #2 right now.....I'm deriving a small measure of pleasure from this topic which I truly enjoy hashing out with other articulate folks.....See how it works?

.....and another thing, is there a CEO in the whole of America that is paid in respect and self-fulfilment instead of bonuses and stock options.

If these things are valid for the management they must be good for the workers.



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Andy B

It all relative. You need both. I've seen highly paid workers be very unmotivated due to lack of respect, and minimum wage paid employee be very motivated due to respect and appreciation from upper managers. They'd probably jump to the high paying job quickly for the money, but that won't drive their motivation or dedication to the work. Works the same on the management side.


[This message has been edited by Laura M (edited 23 January 2001).]

To be honest i was just being a little pedantic. Of course the right answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, but if i was forced to answer the original question with one word 'is money a motivator' i would have to answer 'yes'.

I seem to remember somewhere in the depths of my economic studies something like a money v motivation curve. The concept was that up to a certain point money creates more motivation, then when a certain point was reached no more motivation was possible (The curve if i remember right actually showed motivation going down after this point, but that i always had problems to understand).

This curve was of course based on 'rational man'. Interestingly i have seen this curve in operation many times here in Germany. The Germans do indeed seem capable of making a rational decision to trade further salary increases for increased leisure or family time. I could be guilty of stereotyping, but i never saw many examples of this in the UK, there people tended to work as long as work was available for fear of ending in a McJob, also in Ireland i tend to notice that people do not seem to make this rational decision so frequently, perhaps because Ireland is a comparatively new economy their thinking seems to be 'Make hay well the sun shines'.

Just some thoughts

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Andy B

[This message has been edited by Andy Bassett (edited 21 January 2001).]

Money does not motivate the workers - because Maslow says so and all managers claim to believe it to be true. So, if you want to hire a technician and you say to your boss, 'There's one guy who's really good but he won't come for what we're offering. Can I offer him more?', the answer is always; 'No can do. Anyway, money doesn't motivate'. But, if, at the beer/coke bust on Friday you ask the same guy; 'Why is Mr XYZ, the corporate CEO, getting $1M salary, plus shares and allowances to match?', he'll tell you; 'If you want the best guy for the job, you have to be prepared to pay'.
So, as usual, there's one law for the few and another for the many.
That's life - keep taking the tablets.
rgds, John C

The contracts with engineers at my current employment have a standard clause that they are required to contribute earnings to the minimum value of 3 times there salary. There are bonuses for additional milestones.

The business is currently experiencing a lot of debt recovery problems (10x our debt).

The Managing Director (80% owner) said last Friday, wouldn't it be interesting to see the result of scaling bonuses against payment by engineers customers within 30 days. This would significantly boost the financial situation of the business, and would certainly MOTIVATE the engineers to ensure their customers pay up front or on-time.

This would also provide cost savings in a number of areas.

Money vs Motivation. I'm for a win-win on this front!

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[This message has been edited by David Mullins (edited 21 January 2001).]

So Kevin - Some interesting comments all in all. What are you going to go back and say to your group?

Regards

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Andy B

[This message has been edited by Andy Bassett (edited 22 January 2001).]

Great contributions everyone! I didn’t imagine the topic I introduced would strike up so much discussion. I agree with Randy, it is nice to have discussions of this type with several different/similar vantage points. It adds to the learning.

To Randy’s post: item one identifies well with Herzberg’s motivator factor ‘Achievement’. The money is the thing to be recognized, and by our standards, having more correlates with having accomplished something of significance. This is what bother Herzberg. Hitting the lottery doesn’t indicate personal accomplishment, just luck. Yet, without knowing how one acquired wealth, one is quick to assuming that the individual worked hard and deserved it (and the recognition of achievement).

To point two, I am reserving my thoughts on this for the time being.

To Andy’s first post (since my last post): none that I know of. Still, the CEO today is much like the Kings of old. Once you have more, you work to expand your domain and become the King of Kings. More recognition of achievement, deserved or not (i.e. Jack Welch).

To Laura’s post: Your choice to use the term ‘unmotivated’ is interesting. Hezberg uses the Hygiene Factors to represent worker dissatisfaction and Motivational Factors to represent satisfaction. He concludes that job dissatisfaction is NOT the opposite of job satisfaction. Instead, he uses lack of satisfaction or lack of dissatisfaction to be the opposites of satisfaction and dissatisfaction. You choose respect and appreciation (recognition) to express a Motivational Factor. Folks will jump to a new UAW job because of money, but probably because their present work does not fulfil the hygiene factors necessary to retain people. Folks need to satisfied with Motivational Factors as well as being not dissatisfied by Hygiene Factors. This is often why folks are only temporarily satisfied, thinking more money will help them to deal with job frustration, when much more is required. Money in this instance (an in most instances, IMHO) created Movement, not motivation.

To Andy’s second post: Does the answer lie somewhere in the middle? Perhaps. I haven’t seen the curve of money vs. motivation, but this seems to be very reasonable. The Law of Diminishing Returns suggest that the curve flattens out. This might be why some folks at the top need enormous amounts of money to feel any kind of movement (i.e. our over paid sports personalities, top CEOs). Are these rational people? Some would argue NO. But what have they learned over their lifetimes? Unfortunately, they have learned to be recognized as great, you must make more than your neighbor. Sad, I think. Herzberg also suggests that we are on our way to the 6 ½ day weekend. This, while we are being paid the best in history. Many organizations are offering time off and huge rewards in an ever escalating economy. Who pays for all of this? We do, but in more ways than just financially.

To John’s post: The technician is looking for the Bigger Better Deal, or perhaps, just looking to have some of the Hygiene Factors taken care of (salary). The large dollars, yen, pounds paid to CEOs is somewhat puzzling. The risk factors increased, so doesn’t the salary we suppose. But how many of us argued in our own minds, if not aloud, that folks making the most, don’t necessarily contribute the most. Additionally, with golden parachutes, one is forced to wonder what risk do they assume (Ford, Firestone)? They are sheltered, and benefit from the myth that we promote, the higher we go, the more we should make. It is hard to challenge this thought, as all of us are trying to reach that comfort zone of ours. But what is this? Made by us, or made by society? I’ll bet society.

I guess I’ll keep taking the tablets you prescribe, Doctor John (hahaha)!

To David’s post: Your opening line is horrifying to me! This is one enormous misunderstanding of the leadership there. Why did they stop at 3x? Why not 4, 5, or even 10x contributions? I hope you are subject to that thinking. The additional ‘bonuses’ suggest more trouble. They are unaware of what the System yields and are throwing darts to choose targets (or so it appears). I am not surprised about the debt, evidence of mismanagement and lack of leadership. Still, perhaps the 3x directive is an ultimatum, make this or the doors close for good. In that case, I wish everyone the best of luck in achieving that goal! The Managing Director’s interesting suggestion is a cruel hoax. The suggestion is that the engineer has the power and authority to make these things happen. Perhaps they do, but looking from a traditional vantage point, this is not the work of engineers, but that of Accounts Receivable. Additionally, the Managing Director’s suggestion is KITA. Kick the dog, he will move. The dog is not motivated, the kicker is. In this case the Director is motivated and wishes this on the engineer. What does the engineer need? This is what motivates the engineer.

I agree that win-win is the objective, but I am failing to see where the engineer benefits. More money? A hygiene factor. The money will only curb dissatisfaction, not create motivation. What we need is to find the things that motivate folks and build these into their work. The MD at your organization is busy doing other things: destroying an organization he has a 80% interest in.

Andy’s last post: I totally agree. I thank everyone to this point with the contributions that they have made. We have seen the lighter side and the dark side so far. I am pleased with the content of your posts.

What will I say to my group? There is still a bunch of confusion out there, that is to say, if you follow Herzberg’s and Maslow’s interpretations and theories. I myself am still sorting out the issues. This was one of my reasons for posting. I hoped to engage in discussion with Cove participants to learn from you all. I have. Particularly, I am not sure how I perceive the convicts who are after sex (or all of us for that matter, trying to fulfil sensual/sexual needs). Herzberg suggests that motivation is based on ‘growth needs” and hygiene factors are caused by ‘environmental factors’. He includes Relationships as a Hygiene factor, and as I mentioned earlier, hygiene factors deal with dissatisfaction and no dissatisfaction. Can sex be a factor of motivation?

I began to develop a theory I call “The Line of Complexity”, which illustrates where needs and wants exist. As life becomes more complex, do our wants become needs. This was prompted from one of my groups discussions where the question was asked, is Love a Need or a Want (Maslow’s first two tiers are considered essential for life)? Pretty good question, creates a good deal of thoughts. Do you need love or companionship (sex?) to sustain life? This is just like “Is money a motivator?” I am sure that I would receive similar responses as above, mixed.

I would like to suggest an article found in the Harvard Business Review, Sept-Oct 1987, entitled “One more time: How do you motivate employees?” by Herzberg. It is an enlightening article, a reprint from 1968. The material is quite relevant today as it was then. In the article, he explains his theories, the differences of Movement vs. Motivation, and the Hygiene-Motivation Factors. I would also suggest reading “Punished by Rewards”, by Alfie Kohn which I think blends nicely with Herzberg’s and Maslow’s work.

Enough said, so back to the group…

Regards,

Kevin

Can anybody get hold of this article and post it on the sight, i would be interested to see it.

Regards



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Andy B

One More Time: How do you Motivate Employees http://wcb.uww.edu/wcb/schools/100/164/williams/2/files/herzberg.html

"1. What are the likely implications of Kohn s background on his
perspective on the topic of rewards? "
"2. Is pop-behaviorialism as widely accepted in our schools, businesses
and child-rearing methods as it ever was?
What evidence have you seen of
any trends? "
"3. Is the United States different from other countries in its faith in
reward systems? "
"4. Are there groups or sub-sets of the population that have resisted the
temptation or recovered from dependency on rewards?"

Punished by Rewards? ***Some dead links removed***

http://familyeducation.com/article/0%2C1120%2C20-281%2C00.html

"Although many of its claims are unsettling, the arguments are persuasive and the alternatives it offers are useful. It calls us to question not only the way in which we use rewards and praise in the Suzuki method, but the way in which our entire culture unquestioningly marches to the beat of the behaviourist legacy of Skinner and Pavlov."
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/94BRcr.html



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Thanks Andy! IMHO, you cited the best ever written on the subject: One More Time: How Do You Motivate Employees from the Harvard Business Review (September/October) 1987. Thanks you very much.

Thanks Andy! IMHO, you cited the best ever written on the subject: "One More Time:*How do you Motivate Employees?" from the Harvard Business Review (September/October) 1987. Thanks you very much.

Thanks Kevin & David! IMHO, you cited the best ever written on the subject: "One More Time:*How do you Motivate Employees?" from the Harvard Business Review (September/October) 1987. Thank you very much.

David,

Great job in rounding up all the bits and pieces you did! I hadn't realized so much was written on Alfie Kohn and was certainly pleased to see that someone had taken the time to retype the Herzberg article. I still recommend those of you following this thread to try and get your hands on the article itself with graphs (the artwork at the site did not work on my computer).

1. What are the likely implications of Kohn s background on his
perspective on the topic of rewards?

I am not sure if I understand your question completely, but here is what I think. Alfie Kohn gives an account of his early days in college where he challenged Skinnerian thought on a shallow level. Later in life, he did several interviews Skinner and had Skinner speak to his class in moving to challenge the paradigm on a much grander scale. I don't think the men saw eye to eye on much. Skinner believed heavily that the environment dictated behavior, which suggest Hygiene Factors to me. Kohn's writing, although I don't see him make a clear distinction between Hygiene and Motivational factors, eludes to the fact that there is a difference. He spends most of time, however, speaking about Herzberg's list of Motivator Factors. As such, I think Kohn has deep awareness and understanding of both external and internal motivators. Having said this, I guess I don't see any implications.

"2. Is pop-behaviorialism as widely accepted in our schools, businesses
and child-rearing methods as it ever was?
What evidence have you seen of
any trends? "

The trend continues to use Skinnerian approaches. As both Kohn and Herzberg point out, this is an almost irreversable trend. It is so much easier to control folks by dangling the carrot rather than doing the work of working with folks to develop feedback and instill intrinsic behavior. There are several good papers written by Myron Tribus showing how the Skinnerian approach has caused the decline of education the world over. I recommend visiting the DEN (Deming Electronic Network) where his papers can be downloaded or read.

"3. Is the United States different from other countries in its faith in
reward systems? "

Well, different from Japan I suppose, at least on most levels. As for the rest of the world, I think we might have the edge on making things worse. We count on rewards! Dr. Mikel Harry's Six Sigma program is based on the rewards priciple for example. Our recent debates last fall by our Presidential candidates confrimed the worse: more accountability and rewards in education. Maybe it will work this time? We know the answer to that!

"4. Are there groups or sub-sets of the population that have resisted the
temptation or recovered from dependency on rewards?"

For this I refer you again to the DEN. Myron Tribus cites examples the world over where Intrinsic Behavior supersedes the old prevailing paradigm. It is really inspiring work that he and others have done to transform the educational system. I have spoken with him on a few occasions and he has pointed me to other reading from Dr. Feuerstein who is working on Structural Cognitive Modifiability (the way we learn). His work, coinciding with the Deming method, have been combined by Myron Tribus and David Langford to create some pretty interesting discoveries. I'll leave it there as I can not do justice in my explanation.

Thanks again for the many good links!

Regards,

Kevin

Here's a link to where you can download the pdf file or get reprints for: "One More Time: How do you Motivate Employees?" *** DEAD LINK REMOVED ***
[This message has been edited by stefanson (edited 24 January 2001).]

i think herzberg is great

Anyone of his theories in particular?

AH! The ol' Dropped off the end of the earth.

Any contemporary comments / thoughts on Money as a motivator?

I'm generally a simpleton, so forgive my simplistic view on this, but here's my two cents worth:

How much money motivates you is ALSO dependent (in addition to the other factors already cited here) on your AGE. When I was younger and just out of college, with college loans, a car payment and such weighing heavily on me - and more importantly with my personal mindset/philosophy heavily slanted toward acquiring "stuff," - then money was a powerful motivator. Younger people tend to think money is IMPORTANT. When you get older (well, at least when some get older) that mindset shifts, and if you're lucky you begin to see that money is NOT the end-all/be-all. And that shift can happen even if you STILL have loans, car payments and such staring at you. I have an entirely different attitude toward money today than I did 20 years ago.

Right now I'm in a situation where I'm making a VERY GOOD income - in the community where I live I'm doing just fine salary-wise. If I was 23 I'd tell you I was going to keep doing this job FOREVER with an income this good! But at 43, if I had to make a list of the top 3 things that motivate me in a job, money would'nt even MAKE the list. I'm at the point where I'd take a significant pay cut to do work that allowed me to feel like I'm making a real contribution to (forgive the corny-ness of this) humanity. I don't want to end my days thinking, "You know, I made a fine contribution to the world by my ability to keep them certified to TS!" I want more. And I think that kind of "wanting more" is a function of AGE as much as anything.

So for me and others like me, an employer will get NOWHERE throwing money at us - it's just not a primary motivator.

All IMHO, of course.

AH! The ol' Dropped off the end of the earth.

Any contemporary comments / thoughts on Money as a motivator?

Anyone interested in this discussion really needs to spend some time reading Alfie Kohn's work. There are a bunch of his articles available for free on his website at http://www.alfiekohn.org. "Another Look at Workplace Incentives" is especially good, at http://www.alfiekohn.org/managing/incentives2002.htm

Well, I'm far beyond the 'just out of school' phase, and I concede that money is still a motivator.

However, it's definitely NOT the prime motivator any more...if it was, I would have quit the Quality field years ago....or I would have left my present employer for another company years ago.

I do what I do because (although it's hard to remember sometimes) I -=LIKE=- being a Quality Engineer.....dealing with customers, planning program launches, all the nuts and bolts and bits and pieces.

I make a fairly decent salary, all things considered, although I am sure that I am worth more :-)

... I concede that money is still a motivator.

However, it's definitely NOT the prime motivator any more...if it was, I would have quit the Quality field years ago....or I would have left my present employer for another company years ago Same here... Money is a motivator - 'A' motivator. One of many. And one of many factors.

In my case, I readily admit that had Google's AdSense not far exceeded my expectations, this forum and site would probably not be here today. As is evident in old threads here, we had 'fun' but I didn't make much off of it considering all the time, hassles (including personality conflicts) and a negative $ flow to make it worth it. I enjoy the site and all that, but when I was paying for a large part of it out of my pocket (net loss) it made me think a lot...

But let's look at another facit - I have 'quit' a number of big companies over 'details'. In implementations, it would be a company (and there were several) who expected me to work miracles (such as 'making' employees do what they had to do). In these cases, to me it was a reputation issue. They wouldn't listen to me, I wouldn't lie and say everything is proceeding nicely and then at the registration audit - BOOOooommmmm.. You lose. And you'll blame me - The Consultant. You hired me as a project manager and I will NOT take the blame for your failure to follow my 'advice'. So - I quit. Only 1 company took me up on that. Other than financially I've never regretted my decisions to confront top management.

Another aspect - That of a Contractor. I have left a couple of jobs where, although the money was excellent, the 'conditions' (each company is different) were not acceptable. At one company I was in meetings where the manufacturing manager used profanity regularly, even with the gals present (yes, including the 'F'rog word). I finally up and quit. I literally said, in the meeting, "That's it. I don't have to listen to this type of talk.", got up, collected my things and walked out of the meeting. I immediately gave notice. The expletive laced diatribes and verbal abuse was such that to me it would take a heck of a lot more in pay for me to continue to sit through the meetings. To top it off, I knew the company was outright, knowingly lying to the customers I was 'dedicated' to about a number of 'things'. I reached the point where on many levels I wasn't 'being paid enough' to go through that stuff. I felt 'sorry' for those who had little choice than to endure this fellow's obscene diatribes and his focus on pointing out someone and proceeding to verbally destroy the person.

So I guess this brings up an interesting point....

At what point, money wise, is a person (YOU) willing to 'sell out'?

What ethics do you have and what part do they play? At what point will you 'over ride' your personal 'ethics'?

Gee, I can only offer my point of view.....

Organizational behavior classes teach that money is a short term motivation tool....nothing more in that sense.

I disagree.....of course I admit to being greedy and wanting "things" and a comfortable life.

Whether money is "A" motivator, the prime motivator, or not at all is an individual call......but for me, I am much more likely to be highly motivated with a really good salary than a bad one.

I will also admit to moving on for other reasons too, as Marc mentioned......

Hershal

Hi Everyone :bigwave:
Does money motivate?
The truth, everyone likes money, will money motivate, I will have to say short term yes, however to use money as a motivation is wrong. Or could send out the wrong message. I believe a ( bonus) money as a reward for a job well done is better. Eventhough I also believe money as a reward can back fire.
Giving praise or recognition , giving credit to the one who is entitled to the credit is a good motivation tool. A gift or a bonus as you might say is a good motivation, however it depends on how the reciever of this motivation re acts and act there after is the factor one should look at.

I guess it depends on the motivation you are looking at as well.

....Whether money is "A" motivator...lIn my response, by "A", I meant one of many (just happened to be first in the list) as opposed to the 'primary' or 'main' motivator... Not the primary motivator.

Depending on your particular social standing.
Social standing may be defined as economical circumstances.

Money is the prime motivator for many and, has been for me while rearing and continually supporting my wife and two sons.
Things like Mortgage, education, material gains (Good and not so good) social life and family holiday's, needs that cursed thing called Mamon.
You bet it's a motivator and, being born and reared in the so called first world, it's essential for survival. Anyone who says otherwise, needs to take a look at their core values.
Wallace.

In my response, by "A", I meant one of many (just happened to be first in the list) as opposed to the 'primary' or 'main' motivator... Not the primary motivator.


I apologize if I misrepresented the interpretation.....I understood what you meant Marc, though I likely could have phrased my post a bit better.

Hershal

One potential issue here is the utility of money. Also, the heirarchy of motivators. If you are in poverty, barely able to keep you and your family fed, clothed and sheltered, money can be a considerable motivator. However, if you are making a comfortable salary, the additional money is not so much a motivator. At some point, the value (utility) of additional money tapers off, and other issues like time with family, quality of life, self-actualization take over.

I don't believe that Mark's anecdotal stories are unique to being a contractor. The Cove gets regular requests for advice from quality professionals (normally younger individuals) who face similiar ethics or workplace issues.

Whether Mark always had good ethics so he recognized bad when he saw it or learned ethics as he saw the consequences of those bad activities, he eventually decided what line he would not cross. It is a personal decision that can have an impact on your ethics, family and even legal liabilities. How you recognize and handle the issues is a life long process. Which path you go down determines how you live your life.

I remember a phrase my high school geometry teacher always used: Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. When you see you can't win, it is probably better to get out fast so your values aren't compromised. If you continue to stay, you will eventually have to sell out which could lead to dire consequences.

Bill Pflanz

Money can be a motivator, but knowledge of other's compesation can equally be a demotivator. I can remember being the heat treat metallurgist for a steel mill with all the responsibility for assuring correct times and temperatures were being used, and resenting that the hourly work force running the furnaces were making significantly more than I did before their overtime was calulated into their compensation. I did not resent the janitor in another section of the mill who reportedly made about 3 times what I did - he took every double and worked every holiday he could, basically living in the plant. Sometihing I wasn't willing to do.

More recently, a saleman's compensation range was posted because he was a foreign national and his job had to be advertised to comply with US laws. The posting was a tremendous demotivator for many because they perceived him as an incompetent who was being paid more than they were, while they ended up "cleaning up" the problems he generated with customers.

I haven't been to the point where I felt I could walk out of a meeting or leave a company due to overall environmental factors as described by Marc, but I've been in the position of evaluating them negatively enough that compensation wasn't enough of a carrot to commit to long term employment with them.

money is important for a job, you should earn it because it is your paying out! of course , high salary means good ability !no one will pay you much if you are lack of skill!
but money is not just the only motivation, post, respect, praise... these can also motivate someone!

Bumped again in 2009 to link to "Business Coach" Touts Basing Pay on KPIs (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=33719)

if you are interested in making a contemporary reply in this old thread, one thing to consider is addressing the aspect of age in the equation.

I suppose I have a bit of a different perspective since I am such a cheap, miserly bastard that I have saved and invested much of what I have earned since the age of 24. Money isn't really a critical motivator anymore (albeit it is a nice way of 'keeping score'). I'm more motivated by whether the work is interesting and gratifying.

Bumped again in 2009 to link to "Business Coach" Touts Basing Pay on KPIs (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=33719)

if you are interested in making a contemporary reply in this old thread, one thing to consider is addressing the aspect of age in the equation.

I am looking from the point of those freshies who recently joined the working class. In the beginning they can afford to be choosy and idealistic (money doesn't mean everything) but when it comes to time to settle down - where they need to start or plan for a whole family, things will be a lot different and money certainly counts and motivate.

In the Asian context, there is a preference for employing married people because they are viewed as more stable (because there is a family and 'money' to consider should one think of throwing in the towel).

I am looking from the point of those freshies who recently joined the working class. In the beginning they can afford to be choosy and idealistic (money doesn't mean everything) but when it comes to time to settle down - where they need to start or plan for a whole family, things will be a lot different and money certainly counts and motivate.

In the Asian context, there is a preference for employing married people because they are viewed as more stable (because there is a family and 'money' to consider should one think of throwing in the towel).

Hello Harry! Wishing you well!

In my case it was the opposite: I saved money like some sort of grotesque little Swiss gnome up to nearly this point in my life - now I regret not marrying and having kids. I recently dated a woman I would have loved to have sprouted a kid or two with, but unfortunately it was a long-distance relationship - she lives in the Florida Keys, I live nearly 400 miles/600km north from her and she broke up with me after meeting a guy closer to home (although we remain close friends and I visited her and her dad over this last weekend.)

Fortunately my best friend/ semi-adopted big sister Marianne has, at the tender age of fifty-one, twelve grandkids (!) who call me Grampa John. Grandkid hugs are the best hugs there are, and the added benefit is that I get to have grandkids without having to raise teenagers who certainly would have been at the very least as annoying as I was.

Kind Regards, Harry! -John

P.S. : Harry, I don't know if you are married, but if you aren't I know a very intelligent, very nice, and very good-looking woman in Malaysia, down in Miri in Sarawak Province on Borneo.. 45 minute flight from Johore, max. I'm just saying. :)

Hi John. Thanks for the kind thoughts and well wishes. Yes, I remember your Avatar a while back (you were with your lady friend?). Anyway, few people have the discipline to save like you and you ought to be proud of that trait - one things for sure, you have no worries for the future.

Have you been to Sarawak? Nice place and exceptionally nice people there. Unfortunately, I did not know any Sarawak Ladies until after I had settled down. ;) ;)
Too late to take up your good offer either. :lol: :lol:

Yep, no doubt about it, money is probably the biggest motivator.

Let's put it this way, would I take a more senior position for less money? No.

And I've yet to find anyone who would take a more senior position for less money than they currently earn.

It's easy to say money is not a motivator when you're relatively secure with savings and securities.
But the money that you've earned during your job has been the motivator to aquire this status.

The human race is primarily greedy, so wealth is another form of security and social standing. Why else would people chose to display their wealth with very expensive houses and cars?

I suppose I have a bit of a different perspective since I am such a cheap, miserly bastard that I have saved and invested much of what I have earned since the age of 24. Money isn't really a critical motivator anymore (albeit it is a nice way of 'keeping score'). I'm more motivated by whether the work is interesting and gratifying.

I must agree with John. I drive a 13 year old car and have no desire to upgrade. What motivates me is the stimulation I get from what I am doing. Money does help, but it does not get the best out of you.:whip:

I must agree with John. I drive a 13 year old car and have no desire to upgrade.

Actually, sir, I can sort of top that - until a bit over five years ago, for many, many years I drove a 1971 Volvo 164. :mg: Loved that car. The engine finally gave up the ghost after a mere 515000 miles/824000km. Sigh. They just don't make 'em like they used to.

When the old Volvo went to the Great Driveway In The Sky in early 2004, I bought a nice, sensible Nissan pickup, and that's what I'm driving now.

Kind Regards -John

Yep, no doubt about it, money is probably the biggest motivator.

Let's put it this way, would I take a more senior position for less money? No.

And I've yet to find anyone who would take a more senior position for less money than they currently earn.

It's easy to say money is not a motivator when you're relatively secure with savings and securities.
But the money that you've earned during your job has been the motivator to aquire this status.

The human race is primarily greedy, so wealth is another form of security and social standing. Why else would people chose to display their wealth with very expensive houses and cars?

Motivation is different things to different people . But i guess that everyone wants to succeed. What is your definition of success? Income level? status or position/role,? Personal goals achieved? Recognition by others?

There are a lot of factors to consider that motivates people.
e.g. work values – some motivated by security and stability, others motivated by service to other, etc.
problem solving approaches – some are risk-taker, some are risk-averse
personal/interpersonal styles – there are introverts, others are extroverts. Some are biased toward thinking/feeling, others are structured /flexible
work preferences – some wants creating new ideas, some fond of inspecting and ensuring quality standards and outcomes
etc etc

To an extent I agree that motivational factors are very individual. But I still stick with the financial reward being the biggest common denominator.

There is a personal level of the comfort factor involved here though. I've seen people who have aspired to that extra position (being promoted to their highest level of incompetence) driven primarily by money (and power).

Don't see too many senior managers being paid less that the shop floor operators, and I don't think many would work for less money doing the same job that they do now for professional job satisfaction.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion, doesn't make it right, doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

We are all too different from each other, and coloured by our experiences to give a classic answer.

Yep, no doubt about it, money is probably the biggest motivator.

Let's put it this way, would I take a more senior position for less money? No.

And I've yet to find anyone who would take a more senior position for less money than they currently earn.

It's easy to say money is not a motivator when you're relatively secure with savings and securities.
But the money that you've earned during your job has been the motivator to aquire this status.

The human race is primarily greedy, so wealth is another form of security and social standing. Why else would people chose to display their wealth with very expensive houses and cars?

Salary increases are given for promotions since it usually involves additional work or responsibility and not as a motivator. Even Deming acknowledged that it is necessary to identify the outliers on the high side and find a way to get more benefit from them and reward them as appropriate.

Personally I do not believe that the human race is "primarily greedy". People with wealth buy expensive things because they can afford them not because they are greedy. Some people just like to accumulate more things than others.

Bill Pflanz

many years I drove 1971 Volvo 164. :mg: Loved that car. The engine finally gave up the ghost after a mere 515000 miles/824000km. Sigh. They just don't make 'em like they used to.

Kind Regards -John

I bet the Volvo was just out of warranty when it broke? :lmao:

With money you can get everything you want/need.And i hope you understand that no one is working just to waste his time:magic:

Some food for thought –

As Deming noted, paying everyone double their salary tomorrow will only provide us with short-term gains and longer-term losses. Would you agree with his position?

When it comes to pay, is it a hygienic factor or a motivational one? I believe some clues are contained within preceding posts.

Is fair compensation the same as incentives and rewards?

Regards,

Kevin

Some food for thought –

As Deming noted, paying everyone double their salary tomorrow will only provide us with short-term gains and longer-term losses. Would you agree with his position?

When it comes to pay, is it a hygienic factor or a motivational one? I believe some clues are contained within preceding posts.

Is fair compensation the same as incentives and rewards?

Regards,

Kevin

A couple of years ago, in this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2897) I mentioned having bought a copy of Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards, but I never got back to commenting on it after I read it.

I found it interesting but (to me) a prolonged belaboring of the bloody obvious, that being that incentives and rewards are almost always lame substitutes for actually engaging the workforce (or students). Rather than the idea that business managers believe that they're actually helping to improve things by offering shiny objects as incentives, I think in most cases it's more likely to be abdication of leadership that's at work, and the hope that offering "prizes" will mask it.

People, in general, want to do what's expected of them, and "leaders" continually fail to understand that it's their responsibility to build an organization that does the right things because they're the right things to do.

A couple of years ago, in this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2897) I mentioned having bought a copy of Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards, but I never got back to commenting on it after I read it.

I found it interesting but (to me) a prolonged belaboring of the bloody obvious, that being that incentives and rewards are almost always lame substitutes for actually engaging the workforce (or students). Rather than the idea that business managers believe that they're actually helping to improve things by offering shiny objects as incentives, I think in most cases it's more likely to be abdication of leadership that's at work, and the hope that offering "prizes" will mask it.

People, in general, want to do what's expected of them, and "leaders" continually fail to understand that it's their responsibility to build an organization that does the right things because they're the right things to do.

Great post Jim! :applause:

Even the carrot on the stick will eventually rot.

Stijloor.

People, in general, want to do what's expected of them

:confused: Expected?
I don't quite follow you here, Jim, though I strongly agree with your comments about leaders. I'd say instead of 'expected' that people generally want to do some kind of meaningful work: work they find satisfying or rewarding (beyond simply money), which makes some kind of contribution/feels useful and makes good use of their skills and talents.

If I'd only done what was 'expected' of me, I'd have had a very different life! :yes:

With money you can get everything you want/need.
No, you can't.

There's a number of interesting studies around that show this. Even people who won fabulous amounts on the pools/lotteries etc, often ended up miserable and unhappy within a few years. This belief is a false one.

Yep, no doubt about it, money is probably the biggest motivator.

Let's put it this way, would I take a more senior position for less money? No.

And I've yet to find anyone who would take a more senior position for less money than they currently earn.
I think you're asking the wrong question. More appropriate would be, would you take a more senior position for the same money? I have at least twice.

:confused: Expected?
I don't quite follow you here, Jim, though I strongly agree with your comments about leaders. I'd say instead of 'expected' that people generally want to do some kind of meaningful work: work they find satisfying or rewarding (beyond simply money), which makes some kind of contribution/feels useful and makes good use of their skills and talents.

If I'd only done what was 'expected' of me, I'd have had a very different life! :yes:
What I meant was that in any work situation there are expectations-- fulfillment of process requirements is expected, e.g.--and that most people want to do what's expected of them in those situations. It doesn't mean that people don't have aspirations beyond the basic expectations. The idea parallels the current How do you Handle Missing Information? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=35393). Sometimes people are pulled in two different directions because of conflicting priorities and must choose which requirement to meet. This doesn't mean that they don't want to do all of what's expected.

No, you can't.

There's a number of interesting studies around that show this. Even people who won fabulous amounts on the pools/lotteries etc, often ended up miserable and unhappy within a few years. This belief is a false one.


i agree, but you are missing one thing : "artificial inteligence will never beat the natural stupidity"

Sometimes we have to motivate people to work on weekends by paing them more money. Is this the answer for question like Does money motivate?

Sometimes we have to motivate people to work on weekends by paing them more money. Is this the answer for question like Does money motivate?

Sometimes it motivates people to slack during the week so they can get overtime on the weekends. Is that the kind of motivation we're talking about? :rolleyes:

It is with some amusement that I have read listings so far.:rolleyes:

My input into this quest for money or not ....:

3 years ago I had a major heart attack and to all intents.... died (flatline for 45 seconds):mg:. Medical technology got my heart going again.....

It was after the recovery that I realised :
Life is to short not to enjoy to its fullest .....
I started living and :
1) bought a sailboat.... I can pay for it while I am sailing
2) quit my full time job and started my own business... I can do what I love doing and do it when I chose to .... somehow I will make ends meet.
3) renovated my house.... why live in a house that I do not like the layout of, I can pay for it while I'm living in it.
4) eat healthier.... I've come to enjoy simpler, healthier food (and tofu isn't that bad either)
5) Stop worrying about money..... somehow, and this is now 3 years later, I feel better off than I did before and I somehow have money available when I need it....
6) buy a bicycle and ride rather than drive....smell the roses along the way.
7) think positive..... just when you think your are heading for trouble, things allign and it turns around....

Maybe I am sounding like I should be on Oprah, but try it.....;) it works :bigwave:

Maybe I am sounding like I should be on Oprah, but try it.....;) it works :bigwave:

Don't be concerned about sounding like you should be on Oprah Vic (though I'm guessing you're not the slightest bit concerned anyway!) - there's nothing wrong with sharing your positive thoughts and experiences with us all, even if some people in this life cannot appreciate such sentiments. It's good to hear some uplifting tales - congratulations to you and long may your life continue in this way. :applause:

"People that say "Money can't buy happiness" just don't know where to shop."

Mary Kay (Ash);)

Thanks Migre.
I found that life is far to precious than to waste your time hoarding money. Time flies and you suddenly realise that you are to old (and I don't think that I am that old:tg:) to even spend all the money you've acummulated, it just ends up going to the funeral home and the tax man anyway.:lmao:
So, what motivates me is LIFE and living it.:agree1: