Why is it that after reading so many posts on this forum is a large percentage of them from people implementing ISO14001 with no experience or good understanding of the standard?

Within ISO14001 there is a requirement for top management to appoint a representitive with responsibility and authority for the ems (s. 4.4.1). This person must understand the system and if not be trained in it in order to understand it with training covered under s.4.4.2.

Should these companies not all fail to be compliant with ISO14001 due to no records of training relating to the system?

:confused:

I've been working with ISO standards for 10 years. Personally, from what I have seen, most MR's on the 14001 side have some environmental training, or are Env Engineers. I've seen receptionists put in the MR spot for 9001.

Do people know everything there is to know by the time they are appointed MR's? no. But then again, I went to several 9001 overviews, an implementation class, and auditor training, and still had (have) questions.

Yes, there should be some sort of training done. But, you say there are no records?? Was the person hired with full qualifications, and so no training records are available because no further training was needed?

I guess that I am just not sure what you are getting at. If I am reading what you say correctly, your first sentence says that a large percentage of posters lack the required competency to manage a 14001 system. Your last sentence states that these companies have no training records. I don't know how you can make that statement, I am sure that you do not have access to the training records of all the posters on the Cove. As for training, it is an ongoing thing for most companies. Part of the process for a bunch of us is learning through sharing on the Cove.

If you could, it might be helpful if you would restate you question, as I haven't figured out whether you have one, or are just expressing an opinion on the qualifications of others.

Sorry,
Steel (I am not the ENV MR) Maiden

Fair comments and my post relates to how I viewed some of the posts that I have viewed as I was curious as to whether this was common within ISO14001 implementation that the person responsible shows evidence of not fully understanding the EMS system by asking what I felt were basic questions.

The post was merely an opinion based on what I have read and I do appreciate that those who do post such comments will be a minority of those responsible for monitoring ro responsible for the EMS. Maybe I am cynical to the fact that many companies are only installing EMS to appease its customers rather than for reasons to improve the environment. If this were the case companies may not train employees up to a suitable standard for implementing the systems due to issues of cost. Some posts led me to believe that some were totally lost and got me wondering how they were in such a position.

My reference to training records were that surely somebody who was not understanding of the basic information could not have records relating to adequate training. I am new to ISO14001 and appreciate there are lots of questions to be answered but would expect anybody implementing a system to be aware of the defintitions of 'aspects' and 'impacts'.

I do realise this is a blinkered opinion from a cynic based on only a few readings however I was curious as to how many problems relating to ISO14001 implementation were casued through a lack of proper training regarding the system.

Thanks for the clarification. I was confused initially.

I came into the environmental side of things as a coordinator for all things ISO. I had very little clue as to what the standard said when I first got my assignment. I'd read through the old version and that was about it. Fortunately, our MR is an MBA, Env. Eng. and a whole bunch of other things, and he is absolutely fantastic on the environmental stuff. Me, on the other hand am only an AAS, but I have the experience in implementation.

Aspects and Impacts I understood. Unfortunately, when it came time to work on our legal and other requirements, I kept accusing him of trying to kill me off by causing me to stroke out! I never had the training that the environmental people do to never answer a question fully, just enough to get by and never volunteer information. They are such masters at this, its like talking to lawyers. (no offense if any of you are, or are related to lawyers) It took me forever to train him to go ahead and give me all the information, because I wasn't going to levy a fine or jail time (just joking).

I don't think it is so much a question of whether people have had the training, I think that as in all things ISO, even after you have the training there is a really big learning curve before it all comes together. It is kind of like the kid in driver's ed, whose parents have never let him mess around starting the car or backing it up, or putting it into the garage. He can sit in class for 40 hours, and on paper it all makes sense. Once he gets behind the wheel for the first time and actually has to not only get the car to move forward, but keep it in between the lines painted on the road, keep the speed under 35 miles and hour but fast enough that he is not impeding traffic, and to top it all off, they give him a manual transmission. There is much more work to be done than is apparent. Add to that, most of us are not very confident in our abilities when we are handed a project of this magnitude, and what we are trying to accomplish is not only meet a voluntary standard, but there are some very big legal requrements and consequences also.

So, yes, there are probably some folks that are not fully trained around. But, they may not all be MR's, maybe just an integral part of the implementation team trying to come up with answers that make sense to them. Or they may just beginning their hands on portion of their learning experience. One of the first things I remember the first time I took a call as an EMT, it is a whole lot harder to try to check someone's blood pressure flying down the hiway at 90 miles an hour with sirens blaring then it is to practice it in a class in a deserted college building at 9:30 at night.

So, please, if you have answers for any of us, please share. We are here to learn as well as to teach.

Why is it that after reading so many posts on this forum is a large percentage of them from people implementing ISO14001 with no experience or good understanding of the standard?:confused:

Enviroken

I agree that a large numner of Cove posts seem to be pretty basic.

It could well be that we are seeing the results of someone being handed an assignment and starting out by a google search. It takes them to the Cove and they start to read, ask and learn. You can see people learning as you follow their posts.

I hope that they ramp up fast on the learning curve, and that they demand and get as much training as they feel they need.

In a perfect World Management would assign tasks only to fully qualified people....perhaps in the next life I'll see this happen.

Why is it that after reading so many posts on this forum is a large percentage of them from people implementing ISO14001 with no experience or good understanding of the standard?
I agree with Steel & Caster. After all, people often get assigned to perform a new task without knowing much about it. That does not necessarily have to lead to an inferior implementation:

If the task includes getting the knowledge, training and resources you need, everything should be ok in the end. It may take a little longer, that's all.

/Claes