Hello All,

My job is to lead the audit teams for TS16949, ISO 14001, OHSAS 18001, but I have a hard time getting management to get involved in what we do. Ensuring problems get fixed and stay fixed, enforcing responsible people to correct their problems. I was wondering on your thoughts of how to change the mindset from being a nuisance to helping the way we do business.

Show me the money.

Make the problems/potential problems talk to the head honchos using their language - dollars, pesos, seashells, whatever. Time wasted, material wasted, etc. all have a cost.

Also, you might want to read this article (as rough drafted as it is):

http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4177

Hi Casey

This is one of those easier said than done subject. However, having contacts 'up there' (if any) would make the road ahead much smoother.

The first step is to be able to look at the 'big picture' (your whole organisation and the environment that you operate in) from the big boys angle or point of view.(Ever wonder why people drink and golf with them?)

Next is to be able to identify how your section or department can blend in with it - especially how you can support or enhance their goals and objectives. (you help to make them look good).

Finally, if you can have a chance to present your ideas (or engineer your way in) - walla! you could be part of them.

Sounds like company politics but that is usually the most effective way. In B- school they tell you that you must also manage you bosses.

Instead of 'act local and think global' you may want to 'act departmental and think corporate'.

Can only wish you the best - for the road ahead is tough but the rewards can be substantial.

(Rob's attachment which I did not see earlier is a very comprehensive guide)

Interesting story. Reminds me of another type of relationship I have read about.

See attached.

Sorry Rob, I tried to attach a file but could not. How do I attach a file. I went to manage attachments, upload from my computer... Hold on, it is in my attachment key, how do I attach it from there?

Figured it out I think.

Hello All,

My job is to lead the audit teams for TS16949, ISO 14001, OHSAS 18001, but I have a hard time getting management to get involved in what we do. Ensuring problems get fixed and stay fixed, enforcing responsible people to correct their problems. I was wondering on your thoughts of how to change the mindset from being a nuisance to helping the way we do business.


I agree with Craig H. But, I'll add three. I find there are four things that work:

1. Show them the money.
2. Show them how it will please a customer (which leads to Show me the money...).
3. Show them how it is required by regulations.
4. Find someone in top management who actually gets the big picture, and wants to do the right thing, because it's the right thing. (harder to find, but worth his/her weight in gold).

Note that the provenance of the attachment is questionable (see here:http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm) but it's not out of line with mid-fifties thinking.

Figured it out I think.


Casey, I noticed your article is dated 1955...Give it up, dude. No need to hang on to that article. Those days are not comin' back. :(

After reading Rob's story, some of the ideas he mentioned made me think about that old e-mail I got a while back. I don't agree with my attachment and I don't agree with everything in Rob's. I came from retail and was taught, as a manager, that if an associate or a process failes, it is because management failed to provide the resources and structure necessary. Like being married, one should not feel insignificant to the other and sacrafice everything simply to make "management" happy or not work to hard. The two should work together, side by side, to accomplish goals. I feel that management should support the associates and not the other way around. I liked the quotes though...

Casey, I noticed your article is dated 1955...Give it up, dude. No need to hang on to that article. Those days are not comin' back. :(
The article was a reference to the way Rob suggested an approach to management.

I will respectfully wait until others have an opportunity to see if there is any correlation between my article and the "wife of the 50s" article and comment on it before adding my humble two cents worth. :)

I will respectfully wait until others have an opportunity to see if there is any correlation between my article and the "wife of the 50s" article and comment on it before adding my humble two cents worth. :)


I had to make my comments before my wife SAW the article, or she may not have allowed me to comment... :truce:

I had to make my comments before my wife SAW the article, or she may not have allowed me to comment... :truce: I like your wife and don't even know her:lmao:

I like your wife and don't even know her:lmao:


I like her a bunch too, ... cuz she let's me make comments like that and get away with it! ;)

Folks - I lived through the 50's as an aware adolescent.

These were the days when we did regular "duck and cover" air raid exercises in school (cower under your desk or in the hall, duck your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodby!)

A lot (not all) of the moms of my schoolmates were like Donna Reed, with full skirts, multiple petticoats, perfect makeup, a string of pearls, frilly aprons, ironing hankies and socks along with shirts and pants and sheets.

The moms really did talk with each other about laundry products, waxy yellow buildup, and making casseroles with Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup mixed with crumbled Nabisco Saltines.

I remember neighbor ladies being scandalized when one woman on our street gathered flowers from her garden wearing "dance shorts" and halter top with a scarf over her hair. Other women did it in full dresses, aprons, gloves, sunbonnets, and laid the cut flowers gently in a wicker basket for transport to the house.

(Dance shorts were full, pleated shorts which ended about 4 inches above the knee and about 4 inches above the belly button. The halter top - looped around the neck instead of straps on the shoulders - left about 2 inches of bare midriff above the shorts.)

It certainly was a major crime NOT to have a hot meal when the man of the house came home from work. Fifty percent of the time the kids were fed BEFORE the father returned home so the parents could dine "elegantly" alone. The other 50% of the time, EVERYBODY (plus a guest or two) would sit down at the same table for the evening meal.

Brie (on Desperate Housewives) would have fit right in on my street in 1955.

I will respectfully wait until others have an opportunity to see if there is any correlation between my article and the "wife of the 50s" article and comment on it before adding my humble two cents worth. :)


I liked the article. Like Rob said, it could use a little "brushing up", but the content is there. It offers some good ideas, and not just for quality folks.

I was wondering on your thoughts of how to change the mindset from being a nuisance to helping the way we do business.Casey, this has been discussed many times here. In my experience, one of the most effective ways to do what you want is to use the ACTUAL, PRESENT headaches and crisis (such as IRATE CUSTOMERS, regulatory non-compliance & fines, accident rates, quality escapes, etc...) that your management are battling with RIGHT NOW. Once you have identified what is keeping them up at night, you should be able to establish a connection of where the system broke down and allowed for the problem to exist. You then drive the message of "we spend all this time, energy and effort to fix a problem", instead of spending less time, energy and effort in developing a management system robust enough to PREVENT this from happening in the first place. Most reasonable managers would love to have systems in place to prevent problems, rather than having to fight the fire du jour. So, you use the WIIIFT (what is in it for them) factor to get them involved.
Don't be afraid to appeal to their worst fears, like, ask your GM/CEO: How would you feel if you had to appear on TV to explain why 12 miners are dead, under your watch? Do you have evidence that you did everything that you could to prevent such a tragedy?
Implementing effective management systems is no guarantee of success, but what is the option?

Hello All,

My job is to lead the audit teams for TS16949, ISO 14001, OHSAS 18001, but I have a hard time getting management to get involved in what we do. Ensuring problems get fixed and stay fixed, enforcing responsible people to correct their problems. I was wondering on your thoughts of how to change the mindset from being a nuisance to helping the way we do business.
Hi,

I our case, every processes were given to an "owner" which is one of the manager. This owner has to set indicators that shows how well (or how bad) his process is doing. Of course all processes performance are to be reviewed by the board of director during their monthly meeting. All process owners report to the plant manager and he makes sure that there is a recovery plan associate with every bad performance. It works very good but the top management has to be closely involed.

Kaliko

I have a hard time getting management to get involved in what we do.

First of all no one likes to be told they are wrong. Use a positive (compliment them), tell them what the problem is, and then use another positive. This will make a big difference.

One must remember that if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

When I have a problem like this I use this approach; I go to the staff (not)involved and tell them "WE" have a problem and I need THEM to help with the solution. At this point everyone involved gets to see their part in the problem and what needs to be done to correct the problem or makes them feel apart of the solution instead of being told they are the problem.

Hello All,My job is to lead the audit teams for TS16949, ISO 14001, OHSAS 18001, but I have a hard time getting management to get involved in what we do. Ensuring problems get fixed and stay fixed, enforcing responsible people to correct their problems. I was wondering on your thoughts of how to change the mindset from being a nuisance to helping the way we do business.

Hi Casey

I'll put my Dr. Phil hat on here....Google co-dependency if you aren't familar with it.

Make sure you don't do too much for other people in an effort to be helpful. Sometimes you have to step back and let them fail (or not). Are you fixing things up for others? Why? Chances are nothing bad happens if they ignore your audits. They have likely tested this out in the past.

At the end of the audit, you are done. It is now up to the auditee to step up and fix their problems. Or not. The auditee will take their cue from management. If it matters to management it will matter to the auditee.

It's really hard for a motivated person such as yourself to have to watch a system perform poorly, when the fix (to us Quality folks anyway) seems so simple and easy.

But at the level of the auditor, you have almost no control over what people do.

Don't let it get you down. You can lead a horse to water....

Once the pain of the current situation becomes unbearable people will turn to you...but only when they have to.

Years ago as a young process engineer, I had a good old boy foreman come to me. He said they had been making "all scrap" for days. He said they had tried every trick they knew, and then he actually said "we're so desperate now that we'll even ask you for help".

You can't push on a rope.

You can't change anyone but yourself.

All you can do is consistently talk about and model a better way and be ready when they are. Realize that they may never be ready.

Caster,
Yes, I do have to wind up fixing things for others. Even in the quality group (who should understand) We are very reactive in a lot of things we do involving problem areas. (especially audit findings) Few realize the importance of a QMS and therefore "pencilwhip" alot of issues just to get them off their plate. I have no control of what they "pencilwhip" except to write an audit finding and notify management. If I don't fix everything I find, it does not get fixed. Management does not hold process owners accountable for their actions, or lack of actions.:frust: I am held accountable when the registrar comes in though and finds the issues. "how could you let that happen":mad:

Casey

Attached I hope is what you find humorous but with some truisms...

Hi Casey,
In a job like yours neds a lot of improvement is expected, a lot of expectations that an improvement must be work. The problem in this kind of job if you cannot fully implemented the improvement that you want to ve put into the system.:eek:

raffy:cool: