Hello,

I found this forum to be very,very helpful. I am new here and I have a question? I am currently been working for a mid-size electronics company for the past 5 years and have implemented ISO9001:1994 the I upgrade our system to ISO9001:2000 2 years ago. We are now moving into the waters of TS16949. I understand the TS additional requirements but I am interested to see what is the average number of procedure most folks have in their TS system? An is it wise to address the additional requirements of TS in creating new additional procedures to cover the requirements? :D

thanx:

Eypon

Hello,

I found this forum to be very,very helpful. I am new here and I have a question? I am currently been working for a mid-size electronics company for the past 5 years and have implemented ISO9001:1994 the I upgrade our system to ISO9001:2000 2 years ago. We are now moving into the waters of TS16949. I understand the TS additional requirements but I am interested to see what is the average number of procedure most folks have in their TS system? An is it wise to address the additional requirements of TS in creating new additional procedures to cover the requirements? :D

thanx:

Eypon

Hello, "eypon" and welcome to the Cove and your first post. TS16949 has the same 6 required procedures as ISO9001, plus one more for Training. I think each facility or company needs to determine how many more are required. I don't think there is an overall average as such. We have 42 and that is too many. I will be reducing that number this year.
Maybe some others will chime in with their suggestions.

We have 36 so far but 7 are completely documented and the other 29 are flowcharts. I really think the day will come where we cut back but since we are just getting started I required the documentation in order to ensure our processes are consistent. When we started out, we had no documented processes at all for Automotive OEM.:eek:

Thanks Jan and Ralph

I am in the same position where we are just getting started into the waters of TS and I came to an estimated of 40 procedures which includes some of my ISO procedure being updated and about 8 more brand new procedures. I think I will be able to cut it down later as well, but for now I feel better that the number I am starting with is not too high. But I have to say, This is the best forum for us Quality guys and gals I've seen. The amount of knowledge on this site helps a lot. I just wish I had found out about years ago. Thanks for your help.:agree1:

I am very anti procedures and most of mine are moving to be an integral instruction/form.
A form for calling the management review and reporting it ensures that the agenda includes the required inputs and the outputs are documented. The form instructs automatically as you fill in the fields. A simple matrix which shows the activities and the method of documenting then enables you to dispose of procedures but show the system is in place.

TS2 Makes reference to the following procedures;

4.2.3 Document control
4.2.4 Control of records
6.2.2.2 Training
8.2.2 Internal audit
8.3 Control of Non conforming product
8.5.2 Corrective action
8.5.3 Preventive action


It is my understanding that the way these procdures are written is up to the organisation. For instance some organisations may have the procdure for Preventive and Corrective action together. My own organisation has twenty procdures..... again too many!!!!

I am very anti procedures and most of mine are moving to be an integral instruction/form.
A form for calling the management review and reporting it ensures that the agenda includes the required inputs and the outputs are documented. The form instructs automatically as you fill in the fields. A simple matrix which shows the activities and the method of documenting then enables you to dispose of procedures but show the system is in place.


I applaud you for this approach. Collapsing procedures and forms is a great way to reduce redundancy.

Thanks Jan and Ralph

I am in the same position where we are just getting started into the waters of TS and I came to an estimated of 40 procedures which includes some of my ISO procedure being updated and about 8 more brand new procedures. I think I will be able to cut it down later as well, but for now I feel better that the number I am starting with is not too high. But I have to say, This is the best forum for us Quality guys and gals I've seen. The amount of knowledge on this site helps a lot. I just wish I had found out about years ago. Thanks for your help.:agree1:


Some of the short simple ones can be imbedded into the quality manual if you like, and do away with some of the easy ones.

In my opinion it basically depends on that how big the company is. I’d like to know how many people work in yours companies and then it will be interesting to know how many procedures do you use. By the way, could you send me an example of procedure which is create as a flowchart (some of you mention that use this kind of procedure)

Thanks
Michu

I tried to attach an Excel file of a flow chart, but the system said it was an"invalid file"

If you search for flowcharts in the forums you will find a lot of examples and discussions on this.
There is a fileFlow Chart Examples (http://elsmar.com/pdf_files/Flow_Charts_for_2000.pdf) posted at the cove

The company I work for is just beginning the process for TS16949 certification. I came in to develop the QMS. I was interested to read about the number of procedures required. Less is more...... This company has procedures that says that have procedures. What is the best approach to help them to understand that that all of the procedures are not necessary for certification?:confused:

Welcome to the Cove, Katheryn:bigwave:

What is the best approach to help them to understand that that all of the procedures are not necessary for certification?:confused:

You might point out that having an excessive number of controlled documents could make it more difficult to get registered; the more you have to keep track of, the more likely something is to slip through the cracks and wait there for an auditor to find it.

Beyond the bare minimum required by the standard, the number of written procedures should be in direct proportion to the value they add to doing business. If the sole reason for the existence of a document is a belief that it's required by the standard, it's probably unnecessary.

The company I work for is just beginning the process for TS16949 certification. I came in to develop the QMS. I was interested to read about the number of procedures required. Less is more...... This company has procedures that says that have procedures. What is the best approach to help them to understand that that all of the procedures are not necessary for certification?:confused:


Cl 4.2.1.c and d describe what you need. If you don't need it, then there is no requirement to ahve it. If you feel a particular procedure would be useful, then you need it.

Most of my clients have 20-40 procedures. I don't have any clients who only have 7. It isn't in the company's best interests.

And then there are the corporate auditors who come to help you, and say you need a procedure for this and that. Only they don't know the difference between a procedure and a work instruction. We had this last week, they were here 4 days. Guess they don't trust our TS16949:2002 certification:tg:

This has cetainly been a learning experience. I appreciate all of the comments. All procedures here are considered work instructions. There is no separation between procedures, work instructions, part specifications or orperator instructions-they are all considered "work instructions" There in lies some of the confusion.

In many cases there are several "work instructions" that deal with the same subject-this also lends to confusion. Dare I say it? The procedures dealing with the same subject don't agree with each other!

Again, that you for your comments.
Katheryn

We have 26 procedures. Additional summary info- ~1k employees supplying service parts to the automotive industry; 13 principal processes; ~35 processes in total each with their own map, metrics, interactions, etc.

ctb

Dear Mr.Michu ,

I have a varieties of Process maps which are made in Micro soft Visio .

Please find the attachment for the basic understanding .

I too not interested in documented procedures . In my organization we have documented 29 business processes . All are flow diagrams. Each process contains Process Owner, Process inputs, Process out puts , Process measurable and process interactions .Our Auditors infact happy about this approach . If you require few of the Process maps i am ready to share4847


4847

Dear all:

Since we change our certification to ISO 16949 from QS9000 we make e across reference trying to find what procedures we should add or keep, as all you know ISO16949 specifies only 7 documented procedures but this don't limit us to document more and add an extra value to the system.

I my opinion we should ensure with any tool we use like procedures, flow chars etc. the continuous operation of the system.

At the beginning of implementation for ISO16949 with the mapping process we catch that some process not directly related to the manufacturing process lines look like separated of the system, those processes or departments has their own procedures but they were classified like "administration procedures" in this way we keep a main quality structure for procedures which in some cases links to an administration procedure.

Sorry I'm entering this discussion rather late, but thought I'd add my perspective on a desirable system structure. Ours has 12 procedures, also know as our KEY PROCESSES, grouped into 4 classifications as identified below:

1 - System-oriented Processes
a) SOP-0001 Internal Audit
b) SOP-0002 Control of Documents and Records
2 - Management-oriented Processes
a) SOP-0003 Business Planning and Management Review
b) SOP-0004 Monitoring, Measurement and Analysis
c) SOP-0005 Corrective & Preventive Action and Continual Improvement
3 - Support-oriented Processes
a) SOP-0006 Employee Competence, Empowerment & Motivation
b) SOP-0007 Control of Monitoring and Measuring Devices
c) SOP-0008 Purchasing & Materials Management
d) SOP-0009 Infrastructure, Production and Service Support
4 - Customer-oriented Processes
a) SOP-0010 Product Realization
b) SOP-0011 Change Control
c) SOP-0012 Control of Non-Conforming Product

I'm attaching a copy of Standard Operating Procedure SOP-0001 Internal Audit. Each step in the process is delineated. Input to the activity is on the left, and output on the right. Who and what are answered in the rectangles. Where more detail is required, associated Work Instructions are referenced. Links to other Key Processes (SOPs) are also identified. Our 12 Key processes are all mapped this way, and include linkeages to associated processes. Process metrics are managed through a Metrics DASHBOARD.

From my observations, companies that have more Key processes than this have failed to distinguish between "Key" and "secondary" processes, which really amount to "Work Instructions". However, everyone has there own perspective on the "Big picture". The size of the comany has nothing to do with the number of "Key Processes" or procedures.


Hope this helps.
Patricia