Our quality management system is based on an ISO 9001:2000, however some of upper management have decided to look into becoming ISO 22000 certified since we store frozen food. Can I implement both system together, or do I abandon the 9001 program, if not the I would assume that one quality manual would be able to cover both standards. Please advise

Even if there is a difference with the standards (I am not familiar with 22000) I would create one manual to address the stiffer requirements if they are not equal. If one or the other is more in depth then becoming registered by the greater would be your choice.


Coury Ferguson
Program/Contracts Manager

Our quality management system is based on an ISO 9001:2000, however some of upper management have decided to look into becoming ISO 22000 certified since we store frozen food. Can I implement both system together, or do I abandon the 9001 program, if not the I would assume that one quality manual would be able to cover both standards. Please adviseWhile ISO 22000 can be implemented on its own, it is designed to be fully compatible with ISO 9001:2000 and companies already certified to ISO 9001 will find it easy to extend this to certification to ISO 22000. To help users to do so, ISO 22000 includes a table showing the correspondence of its requirements with those of ISO 9001:2000.

Thanks for your reply, my next question is do I keep my quality policy and establish a new Food safety policy or do I have a seperate food safety policy to go along with my current quality policy,

Thanks,

Damon

Thanks for your reply, my next question is do I keep my quality policy and establish a new Food safety policy or do I have a seperate food safety policy to go along with my current quality policy,Either way. As long as the policy(ies) satisfy the specific requirements for both Standards. If it were me, I would lean towards a common policy. After all, in your case safe handling of food seems to be both a customer expectation as well as a regulatory requirement.

Hi Damon,

I am in the same situation (my case is worst because I want to integrate in one manual wih ISO 14001 also !).

I agree with Sidney. However, although it is good to integrate the HACCP system in the quality manual, do not forget HACCP requires additional more technical key documents (like for example the hazard analysis) which I think is good to put in a separate more specific manual. The management and overall aspects should be placed in the quality manual. Just an opinion.

regards,
Francis

We are looking forward to register for both ISO 9001 and ISO 22000.

Since ISO 22000 and ISO 9001 have similarities in the structure, do we integrate the tier 2 documentations? Or do we separate into 2 sets of tier 2 documentations? :thanks:

We are looking forward to register for both ISO 9001 and ISO 22000.

Since ISO 22000 and ISO 9001 have similarities in the structure, do we integrate the tier 2 documentations? Or do we separate into 2 sets of tier 2 documentations? :thanks:INTEGRATE.

Very precise. :thanx:

Hello Water,

If I am not mistaken you are purely in the food industry. Why do you need ISO 9001? Many companies in Malaysia have it more as an interim measure before they embark on HACCP ( and ISO 22000 in future ) - which is often deemed as more difficult to achieve certification.

Unless part of your organization requires ISO 9001, I feel that its unnecessary and irrelevant hassle. But its your choice!

I think Harry could be right.
However, do not forget ISO 22000 is only for food safety, and your quality system encompasses other elements equally or even more important! (like supplying the right quality to your clients, responding to claims, developing new products, quality costs, etc.).
So maybe a double certification could be worthwhile (integrated into one audit).

HACCP is a must, and it should be well managed, reviewed and improved, but to me, the real challenge are the other elements of the quality system.

Sorry, I have little experience in ISO 9001 or ISO 22000 certification (we have only AIB GMPs regular certifications since 2001).

regards,
Francis

Hi Francis,

You can always include any ISO 9001 elements deemed necessary into 22k. No need for a seperate system.

Hello Harry,

Yes, I agree with you but I think that in a sense the Food Safety Management System is separate from the overall QMS. It has its own objectives and unique approach, method and documentation requirements. This does not mean it does not share (and "needs") many elements from ISO 9000 (or common sense management).

What I mean is that the FSMS could be integrated to ISO 9000 in the quality manual, and also share some procedures. (I guess that was what "Water" was referring to in his question about tier 2 documentation). But many procedures and records are quite unique for the FSMS (or HACCP).

I must confess I have not yet finished "integrating" our QMS manual with our HACCP manuals. We will have a level 1 QMS manual incorporating the main elements of the FSMS, but I am sure we will still need more specific "tier 2" level HACCP manuals for the different processes (in our case for example frozen vegetables, frozen fruits, and canned vegetables). I think the quality manual should be as simple and as didactic as possible.

To me, real integration would mean that all the persons working in the company or process in the factory, would think in a "dual" way: minding the quality and safety issues at the same time.

What do you think Harry? These are just some opinions, would be glad to receive your comments and/or point of view.

regards
Francis

Hi Guys,
Does anybody has a Quality Manual to be shared with? Basically, I'm very new in particular with this standard.
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Raffy

Hello Harry,

It is usually seen in the food industry in registering both ISO9001 and HACCP. HACCP is good, but HACCP integrates with ISO9001 is best because of the continuous improvement framework of ISO9001. Since ISO22000 has the framework of continuous improvement, I was once think that ISO22000 shall replace the multiple certification of both ISO9001 and HACCP.

I think ISO 22000 alone is not enough because:
ISO22k is only about food safety, and has neglected organoleptic property. It may be a safe food but with bad taste, and therefore may not meet customer's requirements. Whereas, ISO9001 is about customer satisfaction. Usually safe food is bad taste because of the efford to meet low bacteria plate count. Its contradictory between safe food and tasty food. Think ISO22000 as safe food, think ISO9001 as tasty food. We afford to register only ISO22000 if and only if we are preparing food for the patients in the hospitals. Hope not for the passengers of the airlines. :tg:

Think ISO22k only as an upgraded version of HACCP for its continuous improvement framework and is being recognised internationally; And HACCP doesn't replace ISO9001.

Hi Water,

Actually one of my postings pertaining to this somehow went missing in the posting process.

The issue you raised is interesting and there are 2 major schools of thought. I belong to the school that belief that 22k is HACCP+iso 9k+some other statutory or industry requirements - much like TS 16949 (for automotive industries). We see this as the trend that ISO is pursuing in integrating various regional or national standards around the world and in the process simplified things and make life easy for everybody.

For this reason the requirements of 22k is structured exactly like 9k from section 1 to 8. Any 9k requirements that you may want to add can be done at the relevant section although the current 22k documents did not spell out anything - for that matter many other things.

Quality can be simply defined as 'fit for use' and in the case of food, use is consumption. Therefore food safety can be viewed as an aspect of quality. Similarly, HACCP is FMEA for food. Various other other requirements such as taste and which you rightly point out can be address through 9k.

What does all these mean? I think they all have their roots in 'quality'. And it further strenghtens the view that 22k should be 9k+haccp(which is industry specific requirement)+other requirements. 22k is not an upgraded HACCP.

The other school which you obviously belong to, interpret 22k strickly according to what is in the current issue of 22k and felt that the quality issues are not address. Currently, nobody really know who is right or wrong and therefore it no point arguing.

I was advised to look out for the next release of 22k scheduled for the second half of this year and hopefully many outstanding issues will be address.

Hello Harry,

I understand what you mean. You are saying there is no quality without safety. Food safety is a major component of quality. And I agree with you.

Since you wrote that we can add any 9k requirements at the relevant section into 22k, its integration.

I agree that by registering one ISO22000 is easier than registering both 22k and 9k. But, correct me if i'm wrong, the purpose of registering ISO is both marketing advantage and better organisation of the company (ie, consistent processes, customer satisfaction & continuous improvement).

And we can practice 9k within 22k without registering it. I think it depends on the intention of the company.

Hi Water.

I agree with what you say. With regards to advantages in marketing -its your choice. What I think is that eventually, 22k will be like Ts16949 - there is no need for a seperate 9k registration. It is understood that 9k is within 22k.

Regards.

Hello to all!!
I' m glad that i found this great forum and i want to thank you all for your posts. They are really helpfull .
I' m about to integrate both standards (9001 and 22000) into one system.
I am preparing one manual which describes the procces interaction and the effect of the two standards in the system.
Finally , all written proccedures are combined to fulfill the requirements of both standards.
I would really appreciate your opinion .

:thanx:

Hello to all!!
I' m glad that i found this great forum and i want to thank you all for your posts. They are really helpfull .
I' m about to integrate both standards (9001 and 22000) into one system.
I am preparing one manual which describes the procces interaction and the effect of the two standards in the system.
Finally , all written proccedures are combined to fulfill the requirements of both standards.
I would really appreciate your opinion .

:thanx:

Hi all ...
i just read the topic, but i would like to know what u called your manual after intergrating both standards?

1- Food Safety Manual
2- Quality System Manual

Thanks :)

Hi all ...
i just read the topic, but i would like to know what u called your manual after integrating both standards?

1- Food Safety Manual
2- Quality System Manual

Thanks :)

Hello Osman,

How about "Business Management System Manual?"

Stijloor.

Food Safety and Quality System Manual

Hello Osman,

How about "Business Management System Manual?"

Stijloor.

thanks stijloor and mannos for the early reply;

“Business Management System Manual?” I didn’t think it that way :rolleyes: but isn’t it generic, I think it should be more specific like mannos mentioned “Food Safety and Quality System Manual”.
what do you think mannos ?

Hi all

Interesting discussions indeed.

With ISO 22000 around, where would HACCP stand? How would its popularity compared to ISO 22000?

thanks stijloor and mannos for the early reply;

“Business Management System Manual?” I didn’t think it that way :rolleyes: but isn’t it generic, I think it should be more specific like mannos mentioned “Food Safety and Quality System Manual”.
what do you think mannos ?

Hello Osman,

You may want to consider who the users are of this manual and then come up with a title that clearly conveys the "content" to the intended audience. Keep it simple. Some companies publish their manual(s) on the internet. If you want to do this, you probably want to be more specific by adding a subtitle. When its only used internally, use a short title.

Stijloor.

Check PAS99 standard for integration of two or more standards.

Check PAS99 standard for integration of two or more standards.

Link (http://www.bsi-global.com/en/Assessment-and-certification-services/management-systems/Standards-and-Schemes/PAS-99/) to PAS 99 information.

Link (http://www.bsiamericas.com/IntegratedAssessment/GuidanceDocuments/index.xalter) to obtain the free guidance documents.


I am not connected with this organization.

Stijloor.

Ah yes, PAS 99 and I have to go teach it later this month....Good Luck!

Ah yes, PAS 99 and I have to go teach it later this month....Good Luck!How does one become competent to teach PAS 99?

How does one become competent to teach PAS 99?

Because this PAS 99 is a BSI thing, I assume you must be employed/contracted by BSI.
Here is a link (http://www.bsi-global.com/en/Assessment-and-certification-services/management-systems/Standards-and-Schemes/PAS-99/Training/) about training but not for "train the trainer" I would guess.

Stijloor.

More (opinions) about PAS 99 from the IRCA site (http://forum.irca.org/topic.asp?$sid=&id=63).

Stijloor.

Because this PAS 99 is a BSI thing, I assume you must be employed/contracted by BSI.I am sure it takes more than simply being a BSi employee or contracted worker to make one competent to teach PAS 99.

Other outfits are already providing workshops on PAS 99. For example, the folks from LRQA. PAS 99 attempts to guide the implementation of the six common processes of most management systems: Policy, Planning, Implementation and operation, Performance assessment , Improvement and Management review. However, it adds requirements that none of the standards it supposedly supports contains, such as contingency planning. Seems to be paving the way to sell more standards and services on issues such as business continuity. ;)
http://www.lrqa.co.uk/images/guidance/articles/pas99/flow.gif

Seems to be paving the way to sell more standards and services on issues such as business continuity.

Yes, for BSI's "BenchMark" look here (http://www.bsi-global.com/en/Assessment-and-certification-services/management-systems/Standards-and-Schemes/BSI-BenchMark/). Another source of more revenue.

Stijloor.

Hi!

I have one doubt about the advantages of implementing ISO 22000:2005 in an Organization.
This Organization is more or less a retailer of bottled drinks (Beer and Coke).
Their job is to go twice a day at both the factories (Beer and Coke), with a very large truck to pick up the bottles of drinks, and distribute them with smaller vehicles to all the restaurants and bars in the place of the country where they are (more or less 250 Km from the factory).
Of course they have a large warehouse, but the drinks are always in the bottles.
This company is ISO 9001 registered.
From what I know about ISO 22000, this standard isn’t directed for this kind of business.
Of course it’s possible to implement the standard to this Organization, but requirement 7. “Planning and Realization of safe products”, will appear somehow a little empty...

Any comments?
Thanks
AV
:bigwave:

Hi!

I have one doubt about the advantages of implementing ISO 22000:2005 in an Organization.
This Organization is more or less a retailer of bottled drinks (Beer and Coke).
Their job is to go twice a day at both the factories (Beer and Coke), with a very large truck to pick up the bottles of drinks, and distribute them with smaller vehicles to all the restaurants and bars in the place of the country where they are (more or less 250 Km from the factory).
Of course they have a large warehouse, but the drinks are always in the bottles.
This company is ISO 9001 registered.
From what I know about ISO 22000, this standard isn’t directed for this kind of business.
Of course it’s possible to implement the standard to this Organization, but requirement 7. “Planning and Realization of safe products”, will appear somehow a little empty...

Any comments?
Thanks
AV
:bigwave:

I agree with you. Unless these bottled drinks need special handling and storage conditions, I see no point for ISO 22000. For logistics, ISO 9001 should be good enough.

No. In fact the bottled drinks are just simple beer and Coca-cola!
There’s no special requirements made by the producer in what concerns to storage conditions.
I think applying ISO 22000 to this Organization will be somehow an empty work!
:(

Can any one help?
Does the ISO 22K have any permissible exclusion like ISO 9001?
Such as calibration & customer property. :(

Hi,

1.2 Application - 9001 exclusions are limited to requirements within clause 7.

There is no sub clause 1.2 in ISO 22000, and to my knowledge the word "exclusion" is not mentioned anywhere.

However, calibration is covered in 7.6.4c, 8.3 a & c, plus calibration and verification records shall be maintained.

Customer property is not specified in 22k, but may well become included in the Hazard Analysis / Prerequisite programmes sub clauses in section 7, subject to exactly what items are involved in a particular process.

Hope this helps,

bbe

Hi,

I have just recently joined the 22k forum.

I have been going through the different postings relating to”22000 & 9001, both or one”.

I am seeking particular advice or guidance from anyone with experience in the task of integrating the 2 standards into one company Integrated Management System.

Whilst in 22k there is a good cross reference between the 22 & 9001 clauses, I have not been able to trace much practical guidance or examples of methodology being applied.

I would be grateful for any help in learning how to achieve an overall Food Safety & Quality Management system using ONE FS/Q manual.

Churchills

INTEGRATE.
Absolutely. I was asked recently whether the requirements of ISO 14000 can be integrated into their ISO 9001, my answer was an absolute yes. We have integrated the business elements of ISO 9001 into FSMS ISO 22000. Yuo can find the differences between the two standards in the appendixes of ISO 22000 standard. IMO, for food processors, ISO 22000 is paramount and it should sit on top of QMS (some may disagree) but food safety is imminently the driving force behind any competitive and profitable concerns (currently it appears to be more on pricing though!)

We are looking forward to register for both ISO 9001 and ISO 22000.

Since ISO 22000 and ISO 9001 have similarities in the structure, do we integrate the tier 2 documentations? Or do we separate into 2 sets of tier 2 documentations? :thanks:

You can combine the similarities.
In short 1 Manual for ISO 9001 & 22000 QMS & For Food Safety i.e HACCP 2nd Manual.

Our quality management system is based on an ISO 9001:2000, however some of upper management have decided to look into becoming ISO 22000 certified since we store frozen food. Can I implement both system together, or do I abandon the 9001 program, if not the I would assume that one quality manual would be able to cover both standards. Please advise

Use both standards. Continually reduce the cost of meeting customer requirements (beyond food safety) while assuring food safety; great combination!

But wait a minute, doesn't ISO 22000 already include the requirements of the ISO 9001?

But wait a minute, doesn't ISO 22000 already include the requirements of the ISO 9001?It might - I don't have a copy of ISO 22000. In the case of TS 16949, ISO 9001 is embedded and the TS elements just add onto it.

That would be why Sidney advised to integrate them into one set of documents and systems.

But wait a minute, doesn't ISO 22000 already include the requirements of the ISO 9001?No, it does not.

Hello,

My name is Rolf Clasener and I'm an intern at the Graham Packaging Zoetermeer plant.

I was asked to do some research on the EN 15593:2008 ( Packaging - Management of hygiene in the production of packaging for foodstuffs -Requirements ) because the company would like to be registered in ISO 22000 and EN 15593 and is already 9001 registerd.

The customer doesn't require us to achieve EN15593, but it suits the company so well and i was already asked to update the present quality management system and implement documents so that ISO 22000 could be registered. So i also took in account that hygienic aspects should be controlled.

I've got the impression that we are pioneers and I haven't heard of any other company that is EN 15593 registerd. As for me as an intern it is already difficult, but now also no information of experienced people was available.

But now almost six months later


I think we are ready for an audit, i updated the haccp and all the documents in the quality manual ( organisation chart was full with names of employees that do not work here any more) and intergrated all the made concept documents of all the required documents for ISO 22000 ( a seperate food safety policy, apointed a food safety team (and leader), i made a seperate recall and a seperate traceability procedure etc.) and for EN 15593 ( a seperate hygine policy, electronic master knife control, apointed a hygine team (and leader) etc.) And made sure that all the employees use/ follow these ''new'' rules and regulations.

I didn't encounter any problems ( that iso 22000 would not be applicable ) when i made documents for iso 22000 and EN 15593 and I intergrated them in to our 1 ''quality'' manual ( now its actually a quality, food safety and hygine manual)

Finally! The right thread !

I think Rolf up there posted his reply without completing his whole idea.

Anyway, views, suggestions & advice please :

Get ISO 22000 for Manufacturing side & get ISO 9001 for the balance of the company operation (logistic, sales, etc) with 2 separate cerficates, system & audit.

Shall we or should we not?

Many thanks in advance!

If your 'logistic' includes cold room trucks for transporting food, they should be part of your ISO 22000 because logistics is often a critical control point or critical part of your operation.

My opinion is as follows: Have a business system incorporating ISO 22000 (to be certified) and elements of ISO 9001 not covered by ISO 22000 for your other departments like sales. They is no need for another ISO 9001 certification unless required by customers.

Hi, returning to this thread after a long time!

It is strange that nobody has mentioned the option of certifying with BRC (now Global Standard), SQF2000, Cook & Thurber GMPs, AIB, etc. In my opinion these standards are quite good ways to integrate the quality management system with HACCP, with an additional plus in that more detailed requirements for pre-requisite programs are explained. You can find these standards in the web.

What to certify for depends of course much on your clients, etc. But a company should develop and integrate its own way of managing its quality and food safety management system (to which we should add food defense), with the objective of always delivering the best quality in a profitable and sustainable way, taking into account all its stakeholders, and continuously improving. Certification may be needed or required, but it should not be the aim of your food quality and safety management system. It is not an end in itself but rather a good consequence of doing things right.

I would still think that you need an overall QMS Manual (which of course needs to include food safety), and then tier 2 manuals for HACCP, GMPs, and other Pre-requisite programs.

I also think that quality issues other than food safety are the real challenge, and that ISO 9001 for quality management is certainly not enough. One should study ISO 9004 (often forgotten) or even other TQM approaches like Six Sigma.

Regards,

Francis

Hi, returning to this thread after a long time!

It is strange that nobody has mentioned the option of certifying with BRC (now Global Standard), SQF2000, Cook & Thurber GMPs, AIB, etc.

There's a plethora of standards in the food safety field, including these you mention, all with somewhat varying histories, backgrounds, slants & proponents for/against.

My empathy is with anyone in the food industry trying to sort out which standards exist, what they are, which covers what, what the pros and cons are, and thus which would be 'best' for them.

I'd still contend that ISO Standards are far more widely understood and known than the rest.

I am quite overwhelmed knowing there are THAT many standards around in food. Alas, food is a basic necessesity, hence its not surprising that so is the case.

In addition to JaneB reply, I would also like to add : ISO training/information are more spread throughout the world and so does their certification body. Not to mention, lack of expertise in certain region of the world to do so....

Improvement oh improvement, I call upon you.. ;-)

I'd still contend that ISO Standards are far more widely understood and known than the rest.


I really like ISO standards and try to use them as much as possible. However, my perception is that, in the food industry, customers (or buyers) value most more detailed standards, like BRC, etc. In fact, these standards are usually an essential requirement while ISO standards may be rather optional. Maybe this could change. But the trend is to have more and more integrated standards (comprising both management and more technical requirements), so gradually all are getting more similar.

Of course ISO 22000 is sort of another thing because it tackles just food safety. Also, by itself is not enough. Not only because of other quality issues, but because if your company is not too experienced or young, there is no detailed guidance to implement pre-requisite programs, etc.

The ISO 22000 standard is fairly new compared to many of the others. Most of the others were developed because there was a lack of a food safety standard and each country or company started to create their own. That means each country/company has a tie to it and therefore thinks what they have is the best.

Once you sort through them as Jane suggests you will start to see common threads.

Best bet is to put in a solid Food Safety System and forget about names.
The different names are just a way for CBs to make more money... :2cents:

The different names are just a way for CBs to make more money... Keep in mind that the CB's are not responsible for the myriad of competing standards and schemes. CB's provide a way for organizations that have to demonstrate conformity to a standard.

Actually, the diversity of food safety related standards and the associated auditor qualification requirements make it for a very difficult and costly auditor competence management process.

If the Food & Beverage Sector could coalesce around an universal set of Food Safety Standards, which would also be endorsed by regulatory bodies, we would all benefit.

Keep in mind that the CB's are not responsible for the myriad of competing standards and schemes. CB's provide a way for organizations that have to demonstrate conformity to a standard.
You took the words right out of my mouth!

Let's not assign blame where it doesn't belong, but lay the responsibility at the feet of those it belongs to: all the different organisations and bodies and associations that each decided they needed their own special standard / system/ scheme, whatever! And that's notthe CBs!

As Sidney says, it's difficult and costly for the various CBs to deal with, also. THere's a good reason why having a single jointly agreed Standard (eg, ISO) faciliates a whole lot of things.

If the Food & Beverage Sector could coalesce around an universal set of Food Safety Standards, which would also be endorsed by regulatory bodies, we would all benefit.

Amen to that. :applause:

Our quality management system is based on an ISO 9001:2000, however some of upper management have decided to look into becoming ISO 22000 certified since we store frozen food. Can I implement both system together, or do I abandon the 9001 program, if not the I would assume that one quality manual would be able to cover both standards. Please advise

Of the food safety standards available ISO 22000 will be the easiest to integrate into your current management system. ISO 22000 is a little weak in the area of prerequisite requirements. For peace of mind and in order develop a comprehensive system you should consider prerequisites requirements from other sources such as CODEX/PAS220 etc.

Regards,

Tony

ISO 22000 is a little weak in the area of prerequisite requirements. For peace of mind and in order develop a comprehensive system you should consider prerequisites requirements from other sources such as CODEX/PAS220 etc.Isn't that exactly what FSSC 22000 (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=35172) aims at?

Isn't that exactly what FSSC 22000 aims at?

It is but I was answering Damon's question and would suggest a bit OTT for frozen food storage.

From the FSSC website:


The Foundation developed FSSC 22000, the ISO 22000 and PAS 220 based certification scheme for certification of food manufacturers.


Regards,

Tony

Of the food safety standards available ISO 22000 will be the easiest to integrate into your current management system. ISO 22000 is a little weak in the area of prerequisite requirements. For peace of mind and in order develop a comprehensive system you should consider prerequisites requirements from other sources such as CODEX/PAS220 etc.


Yes, me too. My preference would be for ISO 22000 (because it's a good management system standard, and as you say, good to integrate), and then consider other more detailed requirements as well, & if necessary.

We are currently implementing ISO 22000. 22000 covers most of ISO 9001 but not all requirements. So you will still need to maintain both as individual systems.