Hi.

We have a philosophical issue with this matter.

I assume that treacebility is only referred to one source

i.e: We have the treacebility reffered to two sources, therefore if we have a problem we do not know which supplier is in charge of. but someone here say that it does not matter, any of them.

I mean we only know that the item is bought to two supplier.

In my oppinion the treazability must be reffered to one source (1 supplier).

But if you read the definition of ISO treazability this is not clear.

Please any oppinion of your self will be much appreciated.

Best Regards.

Are you referring to products that you receive and you wish to trace problems back to your supplier? I will admit that sometimes it is not possible to track back to a specific supplier. My own company has a process that we can trace everything back to the supplier except when it comes to our scrap metal (i.e., we recycle scrap metal to make our finished product).

ISO 9001 says "where appropriate" to have traceability. What does TS say?

Thanks.

Yes I mean row material (Steel) but the definition is as you mention.

I assume that the civil responsability for supplying a defect part must be charge to the supplier if the treceability is one to one.

But they assume that if they have a problem they do not charge to the supplier.

My company manufacturers steel. We purchase scrap metal from suppliers on our approved vendor list, melt it down, add alloys and stuff, and with a hint of magic (to ensure we get the proper grade), out comes a billet which is then rolled into one of over 300 different sizes.

If I was to walk into our warehouse blind-folded and place my hand on a bundle, I would be able to find out the entire history of that product right down to the crew that melted it, if it was ever quarantined, etc.

However, it would not be feasible for us to be able to track down who supplied us with the raw material (i.e., scrap metal). Trucks come in with their products and dump them in designated areas. All shred goes into one pile - it doesn't matter who the supplier is. All heavy melt goes into one pile - it doesn't matter who the supplier is. And so on.

Because we have the ability to add additional ingredients during the melting process in an effort to obtain the desired grade, it was determined that knowing who supplied us with the scrap metal that went into the product didn't matter. Especially as it would be, more than likely, more than one supplier! :eek: Tracking each scrap supplier down would not be very practical and odds are the cost of implementing such a process would cost more than one bad heat of steel.

But, as I said before, we're ISO 9001...TS might have requirements that are more strict.

Thanks Roxane

Your description is very interesting.

Althoug TS is not also clear on that issue,

Automobile Customer requirements are clear:

Traceability shall be maintained for lot control to the chemical composition and/or quenched hardness testing. External laboratories used to test material shall conform to the Laboratory Requirements of 7.6.3.2S.

Therefor the Traceability must only be from one source.

just my own 2 cents. Once you have melted the scrap, it doesn't matter who it came from. The scrap supplier does not "create" the scrap, they are nothing more than brokers/delivery men. (and no, I do not mean that in a derogatory way) The true supplier would have been the original mill that produced the steel that was used to produce the car/washing machine/beams/railcar in the first place, and you'll never have that kind of traceability because my new car did not come with papers stating who produced the sheet metal, who produced the bar stock, etc.

There is absolutely no requirement to know which broker brokered your scrap purchase. (they all buy it from the same places anyway) I cannot imagine that TS is that different from what we had to do in QS to this respect. To me, this is kind of like going to the store to purchase a steak and expecting to know which farmer in Nebraska raised it. (believe me, there is a difference in the quality of meat dependent upon who raised it, how it was raised, and what it was fed) That kind of traceability is not going to be possible for the application.

jrubio, you say "Traceability shall be maintained for lot control to the chemical composition and/or quenched hardness testing. External laboratories used to test material shall conform to the Laboratory Requirements of 7.6.3.2S." but your chemical composition comes from the mix of scrap you melt. NOT from the scrap supplier. We may need to use several suppliers because maybe we couldn't get shred from supplier A this month, but supplier B had plenty on hand. The mill uses the mix to determine the chemistry and then refines/alloys the melt chemistries to meet the customer specifications.

The only thing we have to "separate" suppliers on is our incoming inspection. Once it passes our inspection for size/composition and compliance to our specs, and passes our radiation detection, it is just a raw material of the lowest level, and needs no further segregation or traceability.

Now, I am not saying that we couldn't give you a pretty good idea who we purchased the scrap from, becuase we can. But what purpose would that serve? I don't know if that car came from the US, Canada, Japan, or Russia. That would be a more pertinent question, as I am sure that each car manufacturer has a different spec, and each country has different regulations, and each steel mill has their own internal practices.

I hope this helps to clarify the question?

Excellent response, SteelMaiden! You put into words what I was trying to say.

The big difference with TS from ISO and a further growth from QS is the emphasis/requirement that suppliers are certified to ISO 9001:2000, and the emphasis on development of supplier quality systems. (There are ways to address the issue.) So scrap brokers are a real problem - most of the brokers don't want to be ISO certified as they view it as an additional cost rather than a benefit.

I believe jrubio is purchasing steel, not scrap, so it would be better to be able to trace defective material to the mill that supplied it. Years ago, when I was a claims metallurgist for a steel mill producing bar product one of the first things we did was run a chemical analysis of the returned samples - checked to see if it matched the heat we had supplied and/or our melt signature for residual element analysis. Now that most bar mills are EAF shops drawing from similar scrap sources I doubt that many complaints could be eliminated just on chemical analysis, but years ago we used to reject quite a few just on that basis.

I would expect a company using steel bars (or sheet) to be able to track the usage versus the supplier - how can you determine if you have a good supplier or a poor one unless you can tie material quality back to one supplier? At the very least, you should be able to track roughly when the usage of one lot ended and a new lot begins, even if there is some mixing during downstream production.

We track everything about scrap. when we bought, how much we bought, how much we use, if there was anything "wrong". But, I cannot absolutely guarantee that supplier A's scrap was used and none of Supplier Bs. We know and track supplier performance. even when you dump it all in a pile, you know how much of whose is in there and whose got dumped where.

Yes, it is more important that the customer (you) can track that you bought your steel from me rather than Roxie than it is to know that we melted Chevies instead of Fords, Whirlpools vs. Maytags.

As to whether or not the scrap brokers are ISO certified, that is your (of TS) call, I cannot get into that because I do not know how many are or are not certified. Personally, there comes a time where certification may not make as much sense. BTW, my stockbroker is not ISO 9001 certified.

We track everything about scrap. when we bought, how much we bought, how much we use, if there was anything "wrong". But, I cannot absolutely guarantee that supplier A's scrap was used and none of Supplier Bs. We know and track supplier performance. even when you dump it all in a pile, you know how much of whose is in there and whose got dumped where.

Likewise. There is the initial inspection - radiation and surface inspection for "bad" scrap (unpunctured propane tanks, etc.) - followed by the inspection as it dumps into the pile - bad scrap, grease, oil, water, ice, etc. We track performance and perform random testing (scrap quarantined and sample sent for testing).

Yes, it is more important that the customer (you) can track that you bought your steel from me rather than Roxie than it is to know that we melted Chevies instead of Fords, Whirlpools vs. Maytags.

:yes:

As to whether or not the scrap brokers are ISO certified, that is your (of TS) call, I cannot get into that because I do not know how many are or are not certified. Personally, there comes a time where certification may not make as much sense. BTW, my stockbroker is not ISO 9001 certified.

I believe that some of ours are but it wasn't a condition to do business with us. Right now, with the scrap metal market the way it is, it sometimes feels like we have to accept whatever comes our way...be they ISO registered or not.

I believe that some of ours are but it wasn't a condition to do business with us. Right now, with the scrap metal market the way it is, it sometimes feels like we have to accept whatever comes our way...be they ISO registered or not.

Amen! Not that the quality is any worse, just trying to compete with the other buyers and still make a profit!:agree1:

We see - and audit - the same traceability issues when we go out with accredited inspection bodies.....what we find is that traceability begins once the item/material arrives at your location and ceases when it leaves your location, in terms of direct control.....however the reords must be maintained so when the item/material comes back in a question later, you know where it came from and where it went.....even though you only have control in your location.....it is a liability issue.

Hershal