Does it exist a Process Audit recommendation within ISO TS?

When we were under VDA norm, VDA issued manuals to carry on the process Audit and Product Audit, my question is if there are something similar in ISO TS 16949.

I ask that because we are following auditing this proccess under VDA manual due to we have not seen any manual or recomendation from IATF.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

We have had a lot of discussions about this if you search for process audit
There is no equivalent to VDA 6.3 in the TS system.
This also means that you can use your own method of auditing without having to use a specific standard.
There are a number of examples, one of the best and simplest can be seen here in this post http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=140570&postcount=31

Hi Javier,
In TS 16949 manual also you will find the process audit & product audit.
the basic requirements and the procedure will be same.

manual :

The norm?

The TS Rules?

The TS Guide?

Which edition, please advise.

manual :

The norm?

The TS Rules?

The TS Guide?

Which edition, please advise.
I will be interested to see as well.
preetham-Do you means that the standard says you must audit. This we all know and is no help to the question

I would guess he means the actual TS16949:2002 Specification which requires system, process, and product audits.

I would guess he means the actual TS16949:2002 Specification which requires system, process, and product audits.
But not really any help.
All audits should be process audits. The specific requirement of TS is that all manufacturing processes will be audited. In the past it was possible to skip some produiction processes.
I have in the past given VDA 6.3 as an example
Search in the auditing forum http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22 for process and there is plenty there.
Please see if this helps and then come back.

What Howard (I guess) and I state is:

Than before in VDA there was a methoth proposed to audit procceses, other methoth to audit product.

VDA sold books which explained how to do it, but now wiith TS is does not exist any recomendation TO DO IT.

Hi Jrubio,

Try reading AIAG ISO/ TS 16949: 2002 implementation guide, CQI-7, where in page 23 - 28, it does tell you ways in implementing the process & product audit.:bigwave:

Hope this help.

bye

Javier,

I think that for TS16949 you still can use the VDA process audit method. TS16949 does not have one method to perform these kind of audits. It is up to you (and what your cutsomer wants you to do), to decied which method to be followed.

Myriam

Howard the format you recommended to audit is excellent, it goes though the proccess deeply.

Thanks.

:applause: :biglaugh: :yes: :whip: :thanx:

Hi every Body..
First Thanks for this wonderdull and useful forum or website..:)
really since i got these Forums, im coming back agian and again, and im not getting enough from it :applause:

i have a Question related to a process audit .. In control plan does 100% isnpection means that process is critical?
hope to get answer fron u .

Hi every Body..
First Thanks for this wonderdull and useful forum or website..:)
really since i got these Forums, im coming back agian and again, and im not getting enough from it :applause:

i have a Question related to a process audit .. In control plan does 100% isnpection means that process is critical?
hope to get answer fron u .


No it doesn't mean the process is critical, but it could be a designated control item which is critical. Usually if a process is designated 100% inspection it means that it is not capable of achieving a Cpk of 1.33 or more.

No it doesn't mean the process is critical, but it could be a designated control item which is critical. Usually if a process is designated 100% inspection it means that it is not capable of achieving a Cpk of 1.33 or more.


But if the charasterist is Safety or Critical usually operating 100% Test is used with a quick Test (Red light or green light often used in electronics).

Imaging an anti gas war mask, we produced in the last company I worked, the clamps for the filters for these masks were critical /Safety and 100% inspection (I would say better 100 Tested) were required.

:biglaugh:

100% inspections

In my opinion, these kind of Tests are functional Tests based on attributive characteristic (not continuos variables), which must not be used to measure capability according to MSA book, Thease charasterists are not used to measure capability due to this task would be very difficult to measure in all the products (It is used in parallel).

But sometimes with Laser devices on some variables it could be done.

Or Special attributive Camaras (Artificial Inteligence with neuronal nets)

But if the charasterist is Safety or Critical usually operating 100% Test is used with a quick Test (Red light or green light often used in electronics).

Imaging a anti gas war mask we produced in the last company I worked the clamps for these masks were critical /Safety and 100% inspection (I would say better 100 Tested) were required.

:biglaugh:

Well yes, I can understand your comments related to 100% TESTING required for a critical function of saftey related items.

No it doesn't mean the process is critical, but it could be a designated control item which is critical. Usually if a process is designated 100% inspection it means that it is not capable of achieving a Cpk of 1.33 or more.


ralphsulser, your previous message was brilliant, thanks :applause:

To be honest the variables with usually the companies used for measuring capability (i.e Thickness) are not the typical defects they search in the 100% inspection Test due to these Tests often search for attributive defects.

That´s why the companies still have Quality problems, the defects usually are in the field of attributive defect, due to continues variables are easier to control it via Statistical mode (Gauss), but attributive is more complex for enterprises, I would say that there are a few of them that really use attributive statical tools for attributive (Size of sample, Binomial, ;Mil standard, ...)

The general concept (I know that this is hard but is true) I heard from a Quality Manager was "if you search more you will find more defects" or "The higher the size the higher the number of defects found" :lmao:

It is corious that the kind of defects claimed by the Customers ofter are not put in the FMA, Transport damage, Handeling defect, bad shipment...

Thanks all I appreciate your replies :)

what i got now is that if we are performing 100 inspection its not necessary mean that the process is critical. and there could two reasons as jrubio & ralphsulser mentioned
1- the process is Not capable Cpk of 1.33
2- the inspection is conducted to attribute

To give u a clear picture to what im facing , an OEM select us to do a 2nd party audit for his suppliers by checking the compliance of OEM MQC (Quality manufacturing chart ) "very similar to Control plan", and the suppliers MQC. At suppliers MQC we found they are writing 100% inspection in front of some processes with out pointing these are critical, my senior say that they should put critical symbol, and if its Not critical why they are doing 100% inspection !!

I think it could be easier to know which process is critical if the suppliers conducting FMEA with MQC but most of them prepare the MQC with out FMEA !!

Does it exist a Process Audit recommendation within ISO TS?

When we were under VDA norm, VDA issued manuals to carry on the process Audit and Product Audit, my question is if there are something similar in ISO TS 16949.

I ask that because we are following auditing this proccess under VDA manual due to we have not seen any manual or recomendation from IATF.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Cheers!


I think execute the process , product and management systems audit based on VDA mannuals is ok!!! maybe it is verbose, but it does is helpful!:applause: