Are dock audits required in TS 16949? They were required in QS 9000 under 4.10.4.2 Final Product Audit. Is this implied (required?) in 8.2.2.3 of TS 16949?
Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

8.2.2.3 includes "packaging and labeling at a defined frequency"
Our parts do not have customer labels affixed until they are ready to load on the truck. Prior to that we use internal labeling. I schedule dock audits once a month at random on skids ready to ship.

Are dock audits required in TS 16949? They were required in QS 9000 under 4.10.4.2 Final Product Audit. Is this implied (required?) in 8.2.2.3 of TS 16949?
Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

But 'Product Audits' are required. So, if you continue to do Dock audits you will be found non-conforming!

Plannergal, dock audits didn't always cover all the requirements to ensure successful delivery of product, so the 'ISO/TS' writers want you to do a more comprehensive audit of products at different places in the product realization process, and check more than simply is it the right product; is it labelled right, in the right packaging, the correct quantity, going to the right address etc etc.......... or if not finished products (as Ralph is suggesting) you can audit for the same kinds of things 'up-stream' in the 'realization' processes..

Hope this helps.

Andy

"Product audits shall be performed at appropriate stages of production and delivery".

Appropriate stages of delivery : we conduct dock audits for that and if possible at the reception on our customer's premises.

Appropriate stages of production : product audits more upstream in the processes.

Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Antoine

Our Auditing process include audits at each stage of the manufacturing process as it is performed. There is usually also a Final/1st Article inspection at the completion of the last manufacturing operation. Then after the parts are packed and ready for shipment a 'Dock Audit' is performed. This consists of a check of any Customer Criticals and gage checks, along with packaging and labeling.
Some of our customers require this 'Dock Audit'. Is it a requirement of TS 16949 and need to be perfomed for all of our automotive customers whether of not is is one of their 'Customer Specifics'? We just passed our Initial Certification Assessment and the auditors said that it is 'implied' in TS.

Our TS auditors like the Dock Audits. These are in addition and after the final product audits by QC Technicians, who also measure and record SPC dimensions for CPk data. Upstream inspections are completed by the operators and documented on check sheets.

You can go the extra mile and do the dock audit but they are not a requirement. QA/QC do the product audits. I stay away from the product audits myself, but during a finished goods/shipping audit I will throw in some labeling and packaging hands on.

Our TS auditors like the Dock Audits. These are in addition and after the final product audits by QC Technicians, who also measure and record SPC dimensions for CPk data. Upstream inspections are completed by the operators and documented on check sheets.

What are you saying, man? :mg: You don't do this stuff for your TS auditor.:eek: Dock audits are NOT product audits, the way the TS requirements detail them........you are opening up yourself to a problem - what happens when your auditor is replaced and you get a non-conformance for not doing product audits??:rolleyes:
Sure, it's anothe form of (expensive) inspection, but hey, I didn't write the spec............we just have to implement it so keeping with the spirit is better than just pleasing an external auditor.

C'mon folks.......do me a favor, no more 'we do it for the auditor' - we are making a rod for our own backs..........:lol:

But 'Product Audits' are required. So, if you continue to do Dock audits you will be found non-conforming!

Plannergal, dock audits didn't always cover all the requirements to ensure successful delivery of product, so the 'ISO/TS' writers want you to do a more comprehensive audit of products at different places in the product realization process, and check more than simply is it the right product; is it labelled right, in the right packaging, the correct quantity, going to the right address etc etc.......... or if not finished products (as Ralph is suggesting) you can audit for the same kinds of things 'up-stream' in the 'realization' processes..

Hope this helps.

Andy


I'm a little puzzled. What you describe is all included in a properly done dock audit, isn't it?

What are you saying, man? :mg: You don't do this stuff for your TS auditor.:eek: Dock audits are NOT product audits, the way the TS requirements detail them........you are opening up yourself to a problem - what happens when your auditor is replaced and you get a non-conformance for not doing product audits??:rolleyes:
Sure, it's anothe form of (expensive) inspection, but hey, I didn't write the spec............we just have to implement it so keeping with the spirit is better than just pleasing an external auditor.

C'mon folks.......do me a favor, no more 'we do it for the auditor' - we are making a rod for our own backs..........:lol:

AndyN,
Maybe I didn't state my input clearly. I started these dock audits, long before any 3rd party auditor was even selected. This was due to a customer saying they received damaged skids and parts. Dock audits were not only to prevent these type happenings, but to have verifying documents of ramdom dock audits, with specific lot numbers recorded.
It just happens that the TS auditor like what I established previously. We have since switched from cardboard boxes on wooden skids to PE returnable dunnage trays and skids that are then stretch wrapped. I have seen a few skids with stretch wrap torn which reduces the stability of the package.

and it's nice to see we're not doing stuff to please those durn auditors.......;) :lol: :rolleyes:

Andy

I have always want to ask this: Apart from the sampling size and frequency, what is the difference between product audit and the normal inspection (incoming, in-process, outgoing)? :confused:

Our internal auditors check the product conformity mainly according to the control plan (product characteristics, specification etc.). Of course, including the labelling and packaging as well.

In our company, the quality engineer and manager will run quality patrol at each key process, randomly pick a few sample and check the products condition every morning. This is not part of the normal QC inspection (for us QC and QA are different functions). Can it be considered as product audit?

In my opinion, there is no much difference between the product audit and quality engineer patrol check except the internal auditor documented their findings. In fact, the quality engineer knows the product requirements (not all customer requirements are allocated in the control plan) better than anyone else.

Hope to hear some advise from you. :truce: