Hello All:

We have been certified to TS 16949 since 2003. It is time for our re-certification audit. It has been 3 years since our initial certification audit.

Our registrar told us we have to include "Sales" in our TS scope.

Anybody had their registrar demand this of them? Anyone know of any official communication about the requirement for all TS users to add Sales to their scope?

Thank you,

Dirk

By the way, a simple "Yes" or "No" is just fine with me. I am just trying to get an idea if others have been required to add sales to their scope or not.

No need for an in depth discussion.

Thank you,

Dirk

Yes. (you said simple answer)

If you want the long answer, our Registrar said that because Sales schedules our production we could not take the approach of them being a supplier. They are a vital part of our process and ability to meet requirements...therefore, they're part of our Scope (even though they are located at 2 off-site offices).

Added a moment later: We are, however, ISO 9001 registered.

YES you must include Sales in your scope

In our situation the answer is YES. Sales is an off site in Detroit and is a remote site support function. They were part of our initial certification audit and listed on our certificate.

I am re-thinking the simple answer thing.

I want to know if your registrar requires Sales to be listed in the scope sentence on your TS 16949 certificate. I do not want to know if it is a good idea.

I want to know if it is a requirement.

And if you say "Yes" it is required, I want to know where this requirement is documented by the IATF.

I just called the IAOB, the US office of the IATF. They said they had no information on the requirement of Sales in scope statements.

Thank you,

Dirk

Again, I want to know if your organization is REQUIRED to have Sales in the scope statement on the certificate. I do not want to know if you voluntarliy included Sales in your scope statement.

And I am specifically talking about the scope statement on your TS 16949 certificate. I am not talking about departments that are included in your TS QMS but not listed in your scope statement.

Our scope is "Design and Manufacture of a Broad Line of High Performance Linear Integrated Circuits with Remote Design Centers." There are many departments and functions that are within our scope of the QMS but are not specifically listed in our scope statement on our TS 16949 certificate.

Thank you,

Dirk

Look at TS16949:2002 under Section 1 Scope below the boxed text regarding support functions off site

The scope on our cert states "...manufacture and supply of ***, including sales processes performed at XX and YYY offices."

As stated in my first response, it was required by our Registrar.

Hello:

The text in 1 Scope of TS 16949:2002 does not answer my question. I am asking what are the requirements for the text of the scope statement of the TS 16949 certificate.

If we had to add every department and function, covered by our QMS, in the Scope statement on out TS certificate, the scope statement would be very, very long.


What good are sales if you do not recognize the revenue which is usually performed by a finance department of function? Why would sales be REQURIED to be in a scope statement but not other important functions? If we look at this from a process approach view point of inter-related processes, how can we say one function must be in the scope statement on the TS cert but others can be left out.

Regards,

Dirk

Where is your Sales location based? We specifically stated Sales as they are located off-site.

Our scope stated on our TS16949 certificate lists sales office in Detroit in addition to our plant scope. This was required by our registrar, We discussed it at length before our Stage 1 audit.
Check with your registrar for what they will require for your situation.

Dirk, the closest I get to your question would be answered in Section 5 of the Rules for achieving IATF recognition - Second Edition for ISO/TS 16949:2002 document. That section describes the TS certificate content requirements. bullet b) talks about the scope statement.

I don't know of ANY IATF mandate that would require TS registrars to enforce sales in the scope statement.

But, what puzzles me is: even if you agree to change the scope statement in your certificate, what significance would that have? I am sure that your sales process is part of your QMS and any sales remote site is being assessed as part of your TS certification. So, what problems would arise from allowing the registrar to issue you a new (and free) TS certificate? Or you are objecting to it, due to principle?

Hope this helps.

No.

Sales is off-site (sister company) and is not included in our scope.

We're up for re-cert this year though, so things may change.

Hello Sidney:

You are correct. I am questioning the validity of the direction given to us by our registrar. They stated we *must* include sales in our scope statement. Where is that requirement documented? Says who? I want to know if this requirement, benficial or not, is made up or if there is really proof. I want to know about the integrity of our registrar.

So why not require the follwoing too? Marketing, HR, training, finance, product engineering, process engineering, package engineering, test engineering, test (for crying out loud), wafer sort, shipping, QA, quality engineering, feild engineering, legal, failure analysis, demoboards, mark & pack, tape & reel, marketing communications, customer service (!!!!!), order entry, samples, literature, assembly, fabrication,

Why aren't ALL of these required to be in the scope statement on our certificate.

Do I need to go on? Why is it that *sales* must be in our scope statement but none of the above things I have listed have to be in our scope statement? And what good is sales without revenue recognition, order entry, etc. We could have the best sales team but if we don't get paid for our sales, who cares?

I don't think it is a good idea to have sales in a scope statement. I think a scope statement should be a general statetment of capabilities and not specific departments. If your organizaiton provides a sales service, then I can understand. But in the TS world, we are all making parts. So why is Sales more improtant than anything else?

Is there anything else that MUST be listed in our scope statement on our TS certificate?

I can't wait until TS goes away (but it may never.... too bad!)

Regards,

Dirk

I am questioning the validity of the direction given to us by our registrar. They stated we *must* include sales in our scope statement. I am surprised with this direction. From what I understand you saying, this is not another case of "AUDITOR-GONE-WILD" where sometimes, an ill advised, misled, incompetent auditor require certain things and the certified organization believes that the auditor's request reflects the registrar's policy.
It could be a case where your registrar was "written up" by the IAOB assessors and they are over reacting and imposing non-sensical requirements.
I agree with you. Tell them to show you the "shall" or stop wasting your time with non value added requirements.http://www.flashplayer.com/forum/images/smilies/vertag.gif

It is frustrating to see so much dysfunction permeating the processes. If we remember the basics: Certification to TS 16949 exists to provide confidence to an automotive customer about the supplier's QMS is able to deliver what is being ordered!

How the inclusion of the word sales in the scope statement would boost your customer's confidence on your organization is beyond me...I could waste my time in much better ways...:lol:

Dirk, the closest I get to your question would be answered in Section 5 of the Rules for achieving IATF recognition - Second Edition for ISO/TS 16949:2002 document. That section describes the TS certificate content requirements. bullet b) talks about the scope statement.

I don't know of ANY IATF mandate that would require TS registrars to enforce sales in the scope statement.

But, what puzzles me is: even if you agree to change the scope statement in your certificate, what significance would that have? I am sure that your sales process is part of your QMS and any sales remote site is being assessed as part of your TS certification. So, what problems would arise from allowing the registrar to issue you a new (and free) TS certificate? Or you are objecting to it, due to principle?

Hope this helps.


I think this is the key. The "Sales" process, or whatever you call it should likely be one of your defined processes. And, a remote Sales location would typically be listed on the cert, and audited. But, I agree it should not be in the scope statement.

In fact, one of the registrars I work for has declined to permit a client to include Sales in the scope statement.