Company I just started with allows 1 of their customers to take part in every internal audit that has anything to do with their product. I don't have a lot of auditing experience, but this doesn't seem like a good idea too me:

Why air your dirty laundry in front of the customer?

Internal audits are a benefit in finding problems BEFORE a customer or external audit...if I were an auditee I wouldn't be honest in front of the customer and risk making my company look bad.

I could understand giving them a summary of the overall findings, etc. - but to have them walk around with you, comment and ask questions, expect to see the corrective actions...doesn't seem like good business practice.

I'd like to talk to the folks at my work about this (small company - only about 70 employees that are striving for ISO 17025 cert someday), but am not sure what to say...any suggestions? Or am I totally wrong and you should allow customer to participate in INTERNAL audits? :confused:

Thanks so much!!
Cat

I guess in theory, having an open relationship like that is a good thing... In theory.

However... I wouldn't do it. I would share audit results with them and I would welcome them to come an audit me, but not let them observe an internal audit as the scope of an internal audit is probably different from the the scope of an audit they would perform.

Also - in several companies I've worked for there is information/processes/materials that are proprietary to other customers and it could cause problems with these customers if one of their competetors saw this during an audit observation.

Before you bring it up with upper management check to make sure that this is not a contractual obligation.

It seems you allready know the answer. I would not allow it, period. Internal audits are internal for the reasons you mentioned.

On the other hand, how important/strategic is the customer? What does your contract with him say? You can allow your customer to do locations on your site themselves, which is quite normal in some branches, and seems to make more sense them let him join your internal audits.

To conclude, it's all up to you, if you have to, let him do audits himselve at your site, do not let him join internal audits.

Company I just started with allows 1 of their customers to take part in every internal audit that has anything to do with their product. I don't have a lot of auditing experience, but this doesn't seem like a good idea too me:

Why air your dirty laundry in front of the customer?

Internal audits are a benefit in finding problems BEFORE a customer or external audit...if I were an auditee I wouldn't be honest in front of the customer and risk making my company look bad.

I could understand giving them a summary of the overall findings, etc. - but to have them walk around with you, comment and ask questions, expect to see the corrective actions...doesn't seem like good business practice.

I'd like to talk to the folks at my work about this (small company - only about 70 employees that are striving for ISO 17025 cert someday), but am not sure what to say...any suggestions? Or am I totally wrong and you should allow customer to participate in INTERNAL audits? :confused:

Thanks so much!!
Cat


Cat,

First if the system is in good shape then I don't have a problem with allowing a Customer to go along with the Internal Audit. They are the Customer, and if that is what they would like to do then I don't see any problem again.

I guess my next question would be: How often does the Customer participate in the internal audits? Is this just an invitation and it is highly unlikely that the Customer would participate?

Also, as long as the Customer realizes that they are an observer and not the Auditor, then there shouldn't be any problems.

I would allow a Customer to witness the internal audit. But, this is my opinion. Someone else in this forum might have a different perspective on this.


Coury Ferguson

:applause: 3 replies in 2 mins! And different opinions on that! just pick the answer you like now...

I don't think I'd like to have a customer included in an internal audit. But, we don't know much about what you do, who your customer is, or what sort of relationship there is. I've gone on internal audits at a supplier, but it was a sister division and we were "helping" them to formalize a quality system. (we were certified QS, they had no certification) We were their biggest customer, but I'm not sure I would have wanted something like that going on at my division.

More info you requested:

What we do: Testing for paper industry (i.e. absorbancy of diapers, strength of papertowel, etc.)

Customer: Can't name names, but they are our largest customer.

Good system in place?: I've only been here about 2 weeks, but from what I can see, there is still a long way to go. We do not have our certification.

Contractual obligation?: No. Just something they want to do, and management said "sure" (I don't think they knew what they were getting into). Customer's been part of the last 4-5 audits from what I can gather.

Auditor vs. Observer: I have not yet participated in an audit they've been on, but I've been told they do not just "observe" - they ask questions, want to review final audit report, corrective actions, follow up and closure. Seems to me that they leech on for the audit and then let my company do all the reporting/follow up/closure, while they critic/dictate from afar. :whip:

Spoke with Prez this morning who stated "we do this because then we have an internal audit and external audit at the same time." I'm thinkin' he doesn't get it..........

Suggestions appreciated!!!!!
:thanx: :thanx: :thanx:
Cat

We do not have our certification. ... Just something they want to do, and management said "sure"...
Do you know if your customer plans on continuing this practice if/when your company is registered? Maybe they're only doing this because your company is not registered yet.

More info you requested:

What we do: Testing for paper industry (i.e. absorbancy of diapers, strength of papertowel, etc.)

Customer: Can't name names, but they are our largest customer.

Good system in place?: I've only been here about 2 weeks, but from what I can see, there is still a long way to go. We do not have our certification.

Contractual obligation?: No. Just something they want to do, and management said "sure" (I don't think they knew what they were getting into). Customer's been part of the last 4-5 audits from what I can gather.

Auditor vs. Observer: I have not yet participated in an audit they've been on, but I've been told they do not just "observe" - they ask questions, want to review final audit report, corrective actions, follow up and closure. Seems to me that they leech on for the audit and then let my company do all the reporting/follow up/closure, while they critic/dictate from afar. :whip:

Spoke with Prez this morning who stated "we do this because then we have an internal audit and external audit at the same time." I'm thinkin' he doesn't get it..........

Suggestions appreciated!!!!!
:thanx: :thanx: :thanx:
Cat

Cat,

Thanks for the added information. Are these witness audits going to stop once you achieve your registration, if your company want registration?

Two weeks on this job? Hang in there.

Have you performed your internal audit yet? Maybe a Gap Analysis?

Coury Ferguson

Spoke with Prez this morning who stated "we do this because then we have an internal audit and external audit at the same time." I'm thinkin' he doesn't get it..........



Based on that statement I'd say he doesn't get it.
Unless the customer counts it as their periodic audit of your facility. If that's the case then the power is in your hands because you can set the scope of the audit.
Then if the customer points out next time that you didn't audit for XXXXX process you can say "that's correct, it wasn't in the scope of this audit".

Do you know if your customer plans on continuing this practice if/when your company is registered? Maybe they're only doing this because your company is not registered yet.

Cari, you beat me by a few seconds.

Coury Ferguson

Cari, you beat me by a few seconds.

Coury Ferguson
Great minds ... :D

No, I would not allow a Customer to "observe" an internal audit, for all of the reasons already stated and:

Auditee considerations - employees are nervous enough, right?...doesn't help much to see a gang circling around them like vultures over a carcass.
Value? - Where is the value-added activity in here? Is the Customer also giving you a report of their findings?
Resources - Too many...gotta do the audit, gotta babysit the Customers, gotta order extra meals at lunch...


In all seriousness, though, unless this was part of a contractual agreement, I wouldn't allow it.

I would try very hard to avoid this situation. Imagine handing a customer a copy of the standard and saying "show me the shall".

It would be like saying to the big boss "show me the door".

Just because I know what I am doing it would not make me right in the customer's eyes, even if their interpretation of the standard is undistilled hooey.

If I were you, catfish, I would try to see if there is any reference to this customer in the reports/notes/ etc.

Looking at this through the customer's eyes, I think the practice of tagging along on audits may be short sighted. I'd be afraid of having problems hidden, rather than identified and cleaned up. I'd rather never hear about the problems, during an audit nosiness event or on MY factory floor.

However, if I had a supplier agree to train an auditor or two, I might be tempted to take them up....Is that what is happening here (hopefully)?

Looking at this through the customer's eyes, I think the practice of tagging along on audits may be short sighted. I'd be afraid of having problems hidden, rather than identified and cleaned up. I'd rather never hear about the problems, during an audit nosiness event or on MY factory floor.
That's an excellent point, Craig.