For your consideration: Are there 18 or 19 items in the PPAP 4th Ed. document Retention/Submission Requirements?


Here's what I've noticed:

1) The Retention/Submission Requirements Table on page 18 lists 18 numbered items and 1 item left un-numbered (Bulk Materials Checklist), each with their cooresponding retention/submission requirements.

2) On the Truck Industry PSW on page 61 there are 19 checkboxes to indicate the possible documents included with a level 4 submission. (do we really need a checkbox on the PSW to indicate that a PSW is included? but I digress.)

Seems obvious enough...some one just forgot to number Bulk Materials Checklist on page 18.
Then I noticed this:

3) In the GM Customer Specifics issued in March,
www.iaob.org/content/rev042606_GMCustSpecificsTS16949_PPAP_Mar06.pdf
page 7 includes a reference (and I quote):

"As a reference the following is a list of the 18 requirements from PPAP see
Retention/Submission Requirements, Table 4.1 and the GM ILM retention period for each
item"

It then goes on to show a slightly modified version of Table 4.2 on PPAP page 18 - no mention of the Bulk Materials Checklist.

----------------------------------
My take on it is that the 19th checkbox on the Truck Ind. PSW refers to the Bulk Materials Checklist.
I've not yet had to deal with PPAPing Bulk Materials, but it's looking as though I will in the near future. Any thoughts?
:bonk:

I think I understand what you're asking, but why are you looking at GM CSRs and a truck industry warrant form?

A few reasons...

- The Level 4 checkboxes on the truck industry PSW presumably (because it is not specifically called out) refer to the numbered items in the Retention/Submission Requirements table.

- My company produces parts for the Heavy Truck Industry.

- GM owns some of the companies we produce for and GM requirements are beginning to be forced down throught the system (rightly or not.)

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A synopsis of my original question:

- GM specifically says there are 18 items required by PPAP
- the PPAP manual shows 18 numbered and 1 un-numbered items
- Truck PSW has 19 checkboxes for submission items

So which is it - 18 or 19 basic PPAP submission/retention requirements?

A few reasons...

- The Level 4 checkboxes on the truck industry PSW presumably (because it is not specifically called out) refer to the numbered items in the Retention/Submission Requirements table.

- My company produces parts for the Heavy Truck Industry.

- GM owns some of the companies we produce for and GM requirements are beginning to be forced down throught the system (rightly or not.)

------------------------------------------------------------
A synopsis of my original question:

- GM specifically says there are 18 items required by PPAP
- the PPAP manual shows 18 numbered and 1 un-numbered items
- Truck PSW has 19 checkboxes for submission items

So which is it - 18 or 19 basic PPAP submission/retention requirements?

I think it's even more weird. On page 57 of the 4th Edition manual it says,
For bulk material...the organization shall formally qualify their product to their design record and submit a PSW when requested by the customer

So if the mystery box on the truck PSW does represent the Bulk Materials Checklist, its presence is completely unnecessary because the BM checklist itself is unnecessary.

I have no idea what the intention is, or what the 19th box means, and I think that anybody who claims to know is probably just guessing. As we say so often here, when in doubt, ask the customer.

Hmmm... I hadn't caught that.

I did notice that page 17 says:

For Bulk Material PPAP submissions, check "Other" in the Reason for Submission Section on the PSW form and specify "Bulk Material." This indicates that the "Bulk Material Requirements Checklist" was used to specify the PPAP requirements for the bulk material and shall be included in the submission packet.

"..."Bulk Material Requirements Checklist" was used to specify the PPAP requirements..."
I didn't say anything before... it was confusing enough. :lmao:

(ow... my brain hurts.)
Thanks for the input Jim!

Could be just a "typo", a box left over from the previous version.

In modifying our internal form, I noticed on the standard PSW for edition 4, they misspelled "warrant" as "warrent" in the declaration section at the bottom. Just another case of not proofreading.

Yea, I had considered that. But if you compare the submission/retention requirements from 3rd and 4th you find that all of the same items appear - slightly re-ordered - once again leading me to the impression that the Bulk Materials Checklist should be item #19 in PPAP 4th.
Of course that would mean that GMs CSR is in error as it states that there are only 18 items... (waits for lightning to strike.) :(

In the end, I believe Jim is right; "ask the customer"
...then make a hard copy and keep it in your file. :D

Could be just a "typo", a box left over from the previous version.

In modifying our internal form, I noticed on the standard PSW for edition 4, they misspelled "warrant" as "warrent" in the declaration section at the bottom. Just another case of not proofreading.

Or, more likely, hiring proofreaders who can't spell. :lol:

I had tried to contact AIAG to get a ruling on this awhile back and eventually gave up on getting an answer. Well, today I got an answer... and I quote:

" Thanks for bringing this to my attention."

end quote.


I guess that clears THAT up!

Knowing you can get more information, and a more timely fashion, here in these forums than from the AIAG just warms my black little heart.... :notme:

a quote from the AIAG publication ACTIONLINE:

1. Define your process to support
this particular customer
requirement—including your
filing system and records retention
requirements. Obviously, the
technical processes necessary
to deliver the 18 individual
requirements need to be
addressed in your system.

As an aside, the Errata Sheet dated Jul 19th 2006 for PPAP 4th Ed. makes no mention of the Bulk Material Checklist in any form. I guess they're still studying the situation.:bonk:

Here is the official word from AIAG:
quote

There are 18 items in the PPAP requirements. Not everyone uses the Bulk Material requirements. Where Bulk Material is used, then there are record retention requirements for bulk material information.

There are only 18 items, but the customer will specify if bulk materials records / compliance are required. For example, Ford requires it, but GM appears not to.

The 19 boxes on the truck PSW are an oversight, it should have been 18.

Regards,
Karen Whitmore

endquote


...and there was much rejoicing!

Back to the topic at hand.
What belongs in my PPAP hard copy file besides first, last copy of PPAP and signed warrants?
What do we do with the 'annuals' that are in the same drawer?
Do we archive in very long term storage.

Back to the topic at hand.
What belongs in my PPAP hard copy file besides first, last copy of PPAP and signed warrants?
What do we do with the 'annuals' that are in the same drawer?

You don't have to have a "hard copy file." PPAP packages may be archived in digital format.
You decide what's in the file, and the best method for organizing the archive. The important thing is that all of the related elements for the part (not just the PPAP) are readily accessible in a central location so that you don't have to go running all over the building when you (or a customer) needs information.
Do we archive in very long term storage

The question isn't clear; do you archive what in very long term storage? What is very long term storage?

1- Also bear in mind any Customer Specific Requirements that you may have to abide by. Some CSRs spell out which documents are to be retained and for how long.

2- Wherever you decide that your primary repository for PPAP documents is you should keep all 18 (19 if bulk materials records are required) of the items listed page 18 of PPAP 4th edition, regardless of whether or not the customer requires those documents to be submitted to them.

OK Jim,

Being a fellow Badger, you know what a bubbler is. Very long term storage is like the N/C Gage cabinet that has unrepairable calipers in it from 1995.

Don't ask why, it just is.

If I send a PPAP for a new part and then send 16 annuals to a company's 16 plants every year for six years, the filing cabinets that I inherited 1 year ago are full, to say the least.

Do you just hang on to each signed PSW w/PPAP and one copy of the annual, which also has a signed PSW? (Common practice in our corner of automotive.)

Does the rest go in a bankers box next to the N/C cabinet, marked "PPAP's and annuals for Ford, GM, Honda etc., destroy after X years per Cust Specific Requirements"? We are now going the computer route but a lot of paperwork is generated still. I am just wondering about the best way to 5S the office and unclutter.

Thanks

OK Jim,
If I send a PPAP for a new part and then send 16 annuals to a company's 16 plants every year for six years, the filing cabinets that I inherited 1 year ago are full, to say the least.

Do you just hang on to each signed PSW w/PPAP and one copy of the annual, which also has a signed PSW? (Common practice in our corner of automotive.)

In the new and improved:biglaugh: 4th Edition PPAP manual, which I don't have in front of me (or behind me, for that matter) there is specific reference to what I think you're referring to. Look for retention requirements. Basically it says that when a new PPAP is submitted for an existing part, the parts of the PPAP that haven't changed should be carried forward to the new package. I've addressed the problem you're talking about by having a central file with all of the common elements, then referring to that file from the "master" file for each submission or PSW or whatever. There's no law that says you have to have a fully intact PPAP package in one place; you just need to be able to assemble the relevant documentation if you have to.

Does the rest go in a bankers box next to the N/C cabinet, marked "PPAP's and annuals for Ford, GM, Honda etc., destroy after X years per Cust Specific Requirements"?
No, I would put it over next to the bubbler.

We are now going the computer route but a lot of paperwork is generated still. I am just wondering about the best way to 5S the office and unclutter.

PPAP is nothing if not a great way to waste paper. You have to retain whatever your customer says you have to retain. You should have a regular review to see what you can throw out, buy a good document scanner and a copy of Adobe Acrobat, and forget about all of the paper.

PPAP is nothing if not a great way to waste paper. You have to retain whatever your customer says you have to retain. You should have a regular review to see what you can throw out, buy a good document scanner and a copy of Adobe Acrobat, and forget about all of the paper.

Thanks

And there is a hang up about saving a sheet of paper that states "Not Applicable"

And there is a hang up about saving a sheet of paper that states "Not Applicable"

Yes! We have our suppliers submit PPAPs in digital format, and it makes me crazy to see pages being used to separate the elements. I don't need a separate page to tell me that I'm looking at a PFMEA, or as you suggest, that the element isn't applicable.

The crowning example of this sort of waste came a few years ago when our suppliers were still submitting on paper, and for one rather extensive project that required some 20 or so separate PPAPs, there were something like 150 unnecessary pages and plastic sheet protectors. What a waste.

Now that I do have the 4th Edition manual in front of me, it says, in typically awkward language, this on page 21 (Section 6):
The organization shall ensure that the appropriate PPAP records from a superseded part PPAP file are included, or referenced in the new part PPAP file. (emphasis in the original)

Yes! We have our suppliers submit PPAPs in digital format, and it makes me crazy to see pages being used to separate the elements. I don't need a separate page to tell me that I'm looking at a PFMEA, or as you suggest, that the element isn't applicable.

The crowning example of this sort of waste came a few years ago when our suppliers were still submitting on paper, and for one rather extensive project that required some 20 or so separate PPAPs, there were something like 150 unnecessary pages and plastic sheet protectors. What a waste.

The unnecessary pages in a PPAP are usually pretty few. But, I would encourage us all to stop with the page protectors. Page protectors are not needed. Customers don't handle the PPAP pages that often. The pages will remain in good condition, just inside the binder tabs. Unless the customer really wants it, save the cost of protectors.

Electronic is even better.

The unnecessary pages in a PPAP are usually pretty few.
Consider the receiving end, where PPAPs have to be reviewed and filed. There are 18 elements (19 with the BMC), so that means there's a potential for that many unnecessary pages (actually there's usually lots more wasted paper) Multiply that by thousands of PPAPs that must be reviewed, and trust me, it becomes a big pain in the arse and takes up way too much space in filing.

Added in edit: Just to illustrate, and this is no kind of exaggeration, consider 18 extra pieces of paper and 2000 PPAP packages. That's 36,000 unnecessary pieces of paper. 72 reams of waste. Keep in mind also that element-separators don't constitute all of the wasted paper. Lots of irrelevant documents, or sloppily formatted documents, are also submitted.

Electronic is even better.
Electronic should be mandatory.