I am trying to understand standard 7.4.1 "Records of the results of evaluations and any necessary actions arising from the evaluation shall be maintained."

We have suppliers that have been used for years which don't seem to need a thorough evaluation and never really have had one. In spirit of not making a huge paperwork trail "just to satisfy ISO 9000," what is a good way to evaluate and keep records of these and other suppliers.

Hi,

What we did when we started down the 9002 road was to "grandfather" in those suppliers with which we had an established, stable relationship. Remember, too, that it is up to you to determine what the criteria is for each class of suppliers. We use "critical" for our top tier, and they were grandfathered in, or they had to have a site audit by us, be ISO certified, or fill out one of those perfectly worthless (IMO) supplier surveys.

Now, our "critical" suppliers almost always get a site audit.

Anyway, why not divide your suppliers up into different classes, depending on criticality, and keep an approved suppliers list. Then for each type of good/service purchased, list the supplier along with relevant identifying info. Then, next to each one, state how they were/are qualified. If you make "track record" an acceptable criteria, list that (along with length of relationship?). If you visited them, state "site audit mm/dd/yy", or, if you accept ISO 9001 certification, state the registrar and expiration date.

Works for us. Hope this helps.

also remember that an evaluation is not restricted to an audit. The records of the RESULTS of a basic evaluation may be nothing more than the data that shows the supplier's performance and since they are always acceptable there is no record of actions taken...no extra record keeping...just the normal records you would keep.

Hi,

Anyway, why not divide your suppliers up into different classes, depending on criticality, and keep an approved suppliers list. Then for each type of good/service purchased, list the supplier along with relevant identifying info. Then, next to each one, state how they were/are qualified. If you make "track record" an acceptable criteria, list that (along with length of relationship?). If you visited them, state "site audit mm/dd/yy", or, if you accept ISO 9001 certification, state the registrar and expiration date.

Works for us. Hope this helps.


So if the critical suppliers are typically site audited, do the rest normally become accepted as having an acceptable track record or have filled out a supplier survey? That is their criteria for becoming an approved supplier?

What would you do for a new supplier that is not ISO registered, not easy to site audit (say they are in Europe), and have no track record with you? Could you just use them for say a few times and evaluate them after that? Either making them approved or not?

Thanks ryan

So if the critical suppliers are typically site audited, do the rest normally become accepted as having an acceptable track record or have filled out a supplier survey? That is their criteria for becoming an approved supplier?

What would you do for a new supplier that is not ISO registered, not easy to site audit (say they are in Europe), and have no track record with you? Could you just use them for say a few times and evaluate them after that? Either making them approved or not?

Thanks ryanThere is no "requirement" to survey or audit a suppler. You decide how you wannt to control the supplier. You can state that the suppler approval is "pending" and that based on the performance of the first (or whateever number of) shipment(s) you will add the supplier to your list.

So if the critical suppliers are typically site audited, do the rest normally become accepted as having an acceptable track record or have filled out a supplier survey? That is their criteria for becoming an approved supplier?

What would you do for a new supplier that is not ISO registered, not easy to site audit (say they are in Europe), and have no track record with you? Could you just use them for say a few times and evaluate them after that? Either making them approved or not?

Thanks ryan


We have stopped using the survey. Our worst supplier gave themselves the highest score. A total waste, IMHO.

We have just such a situation right now, with a new supplier in India. Our Purchasing folks asked about the size of the company and asked for many samples (they were ISO registered, but because of the lead time issues we wanted to make very sure). So, yes, we used them a few times, and as the supply channel filled we eased our orders with the old supplier. From a procedural standpoint they could have been approved upon receipt of the cert., but we waited just a little longer. They seem to be working out as far as ship dates and quality, but the long and uncertain shipping time is causing some problems, which we are addressing.

Do what makes business sense, taking into account risk factors such as non-supply, late supply, and product failure.

There was a similar discussion in the FDA forum, 21CFR820-820.50 Purchasing controls - Using Non-Approved Suppliers. (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13386) You may want to look at it.

There is no "requirement" to survey or audit a suppler. You decide how you wannt to control the supplier. You can state that the suppler approval is "pending" and that based on the performance of the first (or whateever number of) shipment(s) you will add the supplier to your list.

This is a basic question but here it goes (i'm new to ISO9000 btw)...

How would you document that? For example, do I need to have a document in writing that says "7.4.1 - We choose our suppliers based on past performance (for example) and leave new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company (again, for example)." And then have a document with all of the approved suppliers?

Or does that not need to be in writing/documented at all?

That is one thing that confuses me. Say we do things a certain way and it works, such as choosing suppliers we feel confident with, I get the impression that we need to do something (documentation?) as proof we comply with ISO during an audit.

This is a basic question but here it goes (i'm new to ISO9000 btw)...

How would you document that? For example, do I need to have a document in writing that says "7.4.1 - We choose our suppliers based on past performance (for example) and leave new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company (again, for example)." And then have a document with all of the approved suppliers?

Or does that not need to be in writing/documented at all?

That is one thing that confuses me. Say we do things a certain way and it works, such as choosing suppliers we feel confident with, I get the impression that we need to do something (documentation?) as proof we comply with ISO during an audit.Describe it in your "Purchasing Procedure". You can find examples of purchasing procedures posted in the forums. Look at the top of the page for a "button" labled "Post Attachments List". Look through the list. There are about 4 or 5 thousand files, so use your "find on this page" function on your browser to find some examples. This is one example (http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2252), but there are more.

This is a basic question but here it goes (i'm new to ISO9000 btw)...

How would you document that? For example, do I need to have a document in writing that says "7.4.1 - We choose our suppliers based on past performance (for example) and leave new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company (again, for example)." And then have a document with all of the approved suppliers?

Or does that not need to be in writing/documented at all?

That is one thing that confuses me. Say we do things a certain way and it works, such as choosing suppliers we feel confident with, I get the impression that we need to do something (documentation?) as proof we comply with ISO during an audit.


rharold,

As Al has said you need to detrmine how you will control your suppliers.

The statement in your manual could be as simple as you stated "...new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company" or it could be as simple as "Company XXX control their suppliers by the use of surveys and as required on-site visits, to insure that the supplier has effective control of the product or service provided. However, existing suppliers unless quality, or delivery has been jepordized will remain with no further actions other than receiving inspections..." Now that is just a suggestion and without really knowing your company I believe this statement would meet the intent of Para 7.4.1 in ISO9001:2000. But maybe someone else can provide a little more clarification of what should be written.


Coury Ferguson

Describe it in your "Purchasing Procedure".

Is listing how suppliers are approved in a purchasing procedure a requirement? If so, how exactly did you know that. It doesn't seem to say anywhere in the Standard.

Or is that what people generally do with these type of "simple" procedures, such as choosing a supplier or maybe measuring product conformity and keeping a record of it (for example). These type of things go into a "procedure" or "process map" type thing?

ryan

Is listing how suppliers are approved in a purchasing procedure a requirement? If so, how exactly did you know that. It doesn't seem to say anywhere in the Standard.

Or is that what people generally do with these type of "simple" procedures, such as choosing a supplier or maybe measuring product conformity and keeping a record of it (for example). These type of things go into a "procedure" or "process map" type thing?

ryan


Ryan, I would place it in the purchasing procedure (even though there is no ISO9001 requirement for this procedure). How and where you want to place this requirement is really up to you. Either one would document the process.


Coury Ferguson

Thanks,

A big part of my time right now seems to be toward understanding all of the small nuances of ISO9000. I'm not always certain where things go and what needs to be documented. That example Purchasing Procedure was very helpful. It was far less complicated that I was picturing.

ryan

Thanks,

A big part of my time right now seems to be toward understanding all of the small nuances of ISO9000. I'm not always certain where things go and what needs to be documented. That example Purchasing Procedure was very helpful. It was far less complicated that I was picturing.

ryan

Ryan, you are only in the beginning. The more experience you get, the better that you will be able to handle those "...small nuances of ISO9000" that is why you have one of the best forums to get your information, Elsmar Cove.

Coury Ferguson

This is a basic question but here it goes (i'm new to ISO9000 btw)...

How would you document that? For example, do I need to have a document in writing that says "7.4.1 - We choose our suppliers based on past performance (for example) and leave new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company (again, for example)." And then have a document with all of the approved suppliers?

Or does that not need to be in writing/documented at all?

That is one thing that confuses me. Say we do things a certain way and it works, such as choosing suppliers we feel confident with, I get the impression that we need to do something (documentation?) as proof we comply with ISO during an audit.

A common approach to this list is to use the built-in functionality of your ERP system or whatever you have. You simply state that the list of "active" suppliers in your system is your list of approved suppliers. Of course, you must specify some criteria for when they are deemed "active" and how they are set to "inactive" when they fail to meet the expected results.:2cents:

The presence of several records of several processes which you feel may not need to be documented is usually for Future Reference, you may not know how long the guys responsible for purchasing will stay on board, and with time the experience gained in dealing with external suppliers and knowing their ups and downs may as well abandon the company all together, and transfering responsibility from one employee to the other doesn't necessarily mean that all the experience and information shall be transferred, and so if you feel the process for supplier evaluation is crappy, you may develop another useful one, but i am totally convinced that records of supplier evaluation need to exist

contact me and i wwill send you a process audit form that i use and meets ts16949 requirements, which is a excel file and then we burn to cd's every qtr.

If you supply the big three then it is required evry year and a ppap for annual useage.:agree:

Hello!
I need your advice.
I helped to purchasing manager to write a procedure for supplier selection and evaluation which is attached (please let me know your comments).

As purchasing manager didn't want to have a supplier quality manual neither a Supplier rating process for supplier(purchasing don't have the enough resources to do it ), so I suggested to him to have a monthly meeting with the buyers and SQA's to discuss supplier performance, delivery, quality, issues, etc and determine if actions needed to be requested to supplier (CAR's any other). he was agreed and I organized the first meeting and explain the purpose of it and record the minutes of the meeting and gave them to Purchasing manager. Purchasing manager never organized another meeting.:nope:
I'm not sure if he doesn't undestand the ISO 9000 standard or he doesn't care about it. Do you have some info/Literature/presentation taht I can provide to him for review?
Do you think that a monthly meeting and records of meeting and complete the agreed actions would be enough to satisfy the standard?:(
Thanks for your help and time.
AC

This is a basic question but here it goes (i'm new to ISO9000 btw)...

How would you document that? For example, do I need to have a document in writing that says "7.4.1 - We choose our suppliers based on past performance (for example) and leave new suppliers pending until they establish an acceptable relation with our company (again, for example)." And then have a document with all of the approved suppliers?

Or does that not need to be in writing/documented at all?


Fact: You don't have to have a purchasing procedure at all.

Ways of dealing with this clause depend on how your doco is structured. If you've got a policy manual, you could write up what you do as policy. If you want to have a purchasing procedure, you could put it in there.
Nor do you have to have a procedure for supplier evaluation, nor an 'approved suppliers' list. These are only methods companies have chosen to use, there are others.


[QUOTE=rharold;156208]That is one thing that confuses me. Say we do things a certain way and it works, such as choosing suppliers we feel confident with, I get the impression that we need to do something (documentation?) as proof we comply with ISO during an audit.

Check what it says again. It says records shall be kept. So you must have records to show what you've done/are doing. For example, one of my clients has a short list of criteria for suppliers (able to meet requirements, financial strength, performance, etc), then just prints out their supplier records from MYOB (accounting system in use), looks through the suppliers, and strikes out any no longer to be used, initials the report, and files it. That's it. Simple and practical.

With new ones - yeah, try them out, then decide whether to keep using or not, based on the criteria you already decided. Which is presumably something more than 'is vertical and breathing'!!

Don't make it a nightmare of doco.

Hello!
I need your advice.
I helped to purchasing manager to write a procedure for supplier selection and evaluation which is attached (please let me know your comments).

As purchasing manager didn't want to have a supplier quality manual neither a Supplier rating process for supplier(purchasing don't have the enough resources to do it ), so I suggested to him to have a monthly meeting with the buyers and SQA's to discuss supplier performance, delivery, quality, issues, etc and determine if actions needed to be requested to supplier (CAR's any other). he was agreed and I organized the first meeting and explain the purpose of it and record the minutes of the meeting and gave them to Purchasing manager. Purchasing manager never organized another meeting.:nope:
I'm not sure if he doesn't undestand the ISO 9000 standard or he doesn't care about it. Do you have some info/Literature/presentation taht I can provide to him for review?
Do you think that a monthly meeting and records of meeting and complete the agreed actions would be enough to satisfy the standard?:(
Thanks for your help and time.
AC

Any advice for me?:o