Need some quick help here.. customer is in an audit.
The question is, what is the difference between a long form and short form calibration certificate? I "know" that the short form simply states conformance to a standard (e.g. H28) and a long form contains actual data, along with procedure, etc.

But... where is this stated by any official source? Seems like one of those things that people just "know" but don't know how.

THanks

Need some quick help here.. customer is in an audit.
The question is, what is the difference between a long form and short form calibration certificate? I "know" that the short form simply states conformance to a standard (e.g. H28) and a long form contains actual data, along with procedure, etc.

But... where is this stated by any official source? Seems like one of those things that people just "know" but don't know how.

THanks

I wish I could help, but what do your procedures state regarding the calibration certificates?

By your definition, I would agree that the short form only states that the calibration and equipment met specification XXX. The long form I also agree that this would include actual data of the calibration. In my opinion.

You could ask the customer and ask them where it is defined.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this issue.

I wish I could help, but what do your procedures state regarding the calibration certificates?

By your definition, I would agree that the short form only states that the calibration and equipment met specification XXX. The long form I also agree that this would include actual data of the calibration. In my opinion.

You could ask the customer and ask them where it is defined.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this issue.
I am asking as a favor for one of my customers. I don't make this kind of distinction in our QMS, but I do use the term frequently and am asked for "long form certs" by my customers. We never provide short form certs, so I never thought too much about the difference. But I think it's a good thing to be able to know what is required for a long form to be a long form.

I see one example for the usage with gage manufacturers. A short form is conformance to class, while long form is conformance to size. Good way to put it.

Need some quick help here.. customer is in an audit.
The question is, what is the difference between a long form and short form calibration certificate? I "know" that the short form simply states conformance to a standard (e.g. H28) and a long form contains actual data, along with procedure, etc.

But... where is this stated by any official source? Seems like one of those things that people just "know" but don't know how.
THanks

Hi CalRich,

First, it depends on which standard your quality system is designed to meet. Second, I am not aware of a standard that uses the terms short form or long form calibration certificate.

Referring to ISO/IEC 17025 for testing and calibration, the requirements include knowing the measurement uncertainty for your measurement equipment, having the calibration traceable to national standards, and when the as received unit is found out of calibration, having the data so that you can determine the impact on product shipped to your customers, so that you can take appropriate action.

I recommend using calibration laboratories that are Accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 for the scope of calibrations that you require. This may mean that you use more than one laboratory for your calibration. Ask them to provide calibration certificates that meet the requirements of ISO/IEC 17025 and ANSI/NCSL Z540-1. These certificates will probably cost more than a "short form" but will provide the information you need to know about your measuring devices.

Wes R.

Need some quick help here.. customer is in an audit.
The question is, what is the difference between a long form and short form calibration certificate? I "know" that the short form simply states conformance to a standard (e.g. H28) and a long form contains actual data, along with procedure, etc.

But... where is this stated by any official source? Seems like one of those things that people just "know" but don't know how.

THanks


I believe this is a convention of the calibration houses. It might be useful to ask the calibrator to explain. The long form has more info and they charge more. They would have to explain if there is a difference in the caliber of the information.

Hi all,

Firstly, I havent come across these 2 diff forms of certs. I believe all cal certs should fulfil the basic requirements, apart from other documentation particulars viz. gage details, conformance to specifications, traceability of the primary calibrators to national standards and finally the raw data (ie the values),

If all these information is obtained, there is no question about short form and long form.

:bigwave:

Need some quick help here.. customer is in an audit.
The question is, what is the difference between a long form and short form calibration certificate? I "know" that the short form simply states conformance to a standard (e.g. H28) and a long form contains actual data, along with procedure, etc.

But... where is this stated by any official source? Seems like one of those things that people just "know" but don't know how.

THanks

This question is not uncommon, and reveals some practices that many (myself included) may be frustrated with.

Wesley Richardson provides a good recommendation - use only accredited calibration providers when possible. Under the scope of accreditation, the certificate MUST meet specific criteria, listed in ANS/ISO/IEC 17025 Clauses 5.10.2 and 5.10.4, and remaining 5.10 sub-clauses as applicable.

Non-accredited providers do not have this requirement and are open to simply state the item is calibrated, traceable to NIST (every cal provider in the U.S. makes that claim BTW) and that is all that is required. Adherence to ANSI/NCSL Z540-1-1994 is self-declared.

Even with accredited labs, you may find two levels of certificates for identical calibrations that are obviously under the scope of accreditation. One will have the logo and uncertainties, one will not. The one with is a higher price. I personally consider the practice unethical, but recognize marketplace realities.....just giving you fair warning.

Just a side note, there are currently three accrediting bodies (ABs) that are internationally recognized, that are native to the U.S. They are: IAS, A2LA, and NVLAP. Two other ABs have National recognition through NACLA, they are L-A-B and ACLASS.

Hope this helps.

Hershal

Thank you all for your comments. I should perhaps have provided a better background to my question as well-intended responses are not exactly what I was looking for.

We are a commercial accredited calibration lab. We provide calibration certificates compliant to 5.10 of 17025. We informally refer to these kind of certifications as "long form". hjilling was right in noting that it is "a convention of the calibration houses"... although I'm a calibration house and I don't know myself. But it had to come from somewhere. (and my question is, "Where?")

It is also a convention of gage manufacturers. When purchasing certain gages, you will often get a small 'certificate' of compliance to a standard, which is informally a "short form cert" (many times it's literally short/small). Gage manufacturers will note different costs for buying a gage whether you want a Certification of Compliance to Class (Short Form) or Certification of Calibration to Size (Long Form).

In our situation here, a customer of mine was in an audit. The auditor noted that the company required "long form certifications" from its calibration vendors, like my company. The auditor asked what comprised a long form certification. They couldn't answer exactly. So the auditor wanted to know how they knew if they had received the correct certification or not if they didn't know what it should include. So they called me, and I was unable to find any definite source to note the difference. The only information I found was the circumstantial reference in gage catalogs.

Regardless of whether my customer asks for "long form certification" or not, I provide certifications compliant to 5.10 for accredited, and minus the uncertainty statement if non-accredited.

Hi CalRich,

I think I understand your question now. I do not know of a source that defines a short form or long form calibration certificate. I suspect that as more people become aware of the purpose for the uncertainty values on the calibration certificates, that eventually all Accredited calibration laboratories will always report them.

At the same time, I also suspect that this will be a slowly evolving process that could take 10, 20, ? years.

Wes R.

Long Vs. Short...Does size really matter?

In my 30+ years in metrology I still find it hard to believe that some companies still insist on providing so-called short form "calibration" certificates. I believe the key to all of this is whether reverse traceability can be proven without a doubt. The claim of NIST traceable standards being used means what if the method used in invalid or what if corrections have been made that the customer should know about but is not included.

Valid Method + Measured Data + Measurement Uncertainty + Traceable Measurement Standards = A complete traceable calibration:argue:

It is also a convention of gage manufacturers. When purchasing certain gages, you will often get a small 'certificate' of compliance to a standard, which is informally a "short form cert" (many times it's literally short/small). Gage manufacturers will note different costs for buying a gage whether you want a Certification of Compliance to Class (Short Form) or Certification of Calibration to Size (Long Form).At our company, Gage Crib Worldwide Inc, we specialize in thread gages and we distribute thread gages for most US and UK gage makers. We offer only Certificate of Conformance or Long Form certification to our customers.

We have found multiple names for the certifications provided by gage makers: Certificate of Accuracy; Certificate of Conformance; Certificate of Calibration; Certificate to Class, Short Form Certificate; Pitch Diameter Certificate; Long Form Certificate.

The information provided on the various certificates, and the method of presentation of the certificates, appears to be random and definitely not standardized. Plain ZZ pin gages from one manufacturer have a Certificate of Accuracy printed on the plastic bag that contains the pin gage. Another gage maker prints a statement on their packing list that functions for a Certification of Conformance. Other gage makers provide only one certificate, their version of the Long Form Certificate, for all gages shipped. Some thread gage makers provide three levels of certification. The Certificate of Conformance, which is mainly a product liability disclaimer, a Pitch Diameter Certificate which specifies the pitch diameter and their measurement taken, and a Long Form Certification which gives all measurements that they are capable of taking. We have seen Long Form Certificates provided on 3" x 5" cards, half pages and full pages. Basically there does not seem to be any attempt at consistency across the market place.

That is why we have reduced it to just the two names. The way we explain the difference, in other words, our sales pitch to our customers: “You can get the Certificate of Conformance for no charge. Basically it states the gage was made, is made right, and the tools are traceable to NIST, 'just trust us'. Oh, by the way, it's worth what you pay for it. Or you can order the Long Form Certification which states the same thing except that it identifies the gage attributes and gives the actual measurements taken by the gage maker, and a NIST number.”

From my perspective, I think that the Certificate of Conformance grew in favor when ISO registration was in its early years. As a purchasing agent for a Fortune 500 during that time, I saw that it became a requirement of all purchasers that the goods suppied be accompanied by a Certificate of Conformance. The intention was to have the supplier swear that the goods were made to standard, thinking that it would actually do some good. :lmao: The Certificate of Conformance has devolved to such a meaningless document that I have a pad of them from one of my gage makers so that I can supply them to my customers in case the gage maker forgets to put one in the shipment.

I do not think that the certifications have been defined in the standards. If I find out differently, I will post my findings here. In the meantime, I suggest that your customer re-word their procedures to better define their certification requirements.

In our situation here, a customer of mine was in an audit. The auditor noted that the company required "long form certifications" from its calibration vendors, like my company. The auditor asked what comprised a long form certification. They couldn't answer exactly. So the auditor wanted to know how they knew if they had received the correct certification or not if they didn't know what it should include. So they called me, and I was unable to find any definite source to note the difference. The only information I found was the circumstantial reference in gage catalogs.

.

:agree1: A "short form" certificate is basically a big thumbs up on a peice of paper.

A "long form" certificate includes data, traceability and everthiny else required by ISO 17025 and agreed upon by your customer.

Easiest way to help your customer in my opinion (instead of trying to find definitions): Issue yourself a corrective action stating that a customer asked for "long form certificates". You ASSUMED this meant that he wanted an accredited calibration with data, etc... You should have reviewed his request and clarified it with him. Send him a copy of the corrective action and start reviewing (more closely) every PO that comes in for specific information.

I think that when a customers asks a question like this, he is basically looking for somehting to give his auditor.

I concur with jfgunn. If you look in ISO17025 section 5.10.2 and 5.10.3 lay out what a certificate of calibration should contain. This includes any special requirements of a customer. Hope this helps.:)

:agree1: A "short form" certificate is basically a big thumbs up on a peice of paper.

A "long form" certificate includes data, traceability and everthiny else required by ISO 17025 and agreed upon by your customer.

Easiest way to help your customer in my opinion (instead of trying to find definitions): Issue yourself a corrective action stating that a customer asked for "long form certificates". You ASSUMED this meant that he wanted an accredited calibration with data, etc... You should have reviewed his request and clarified it with him. Send him a copy of the corrective action and start reviewing (more closely) every PO that comes in for specific information.

I think that when a customers asks a question like this, he is basically looking for somehting to give his auditor.

Let's not define what we "assume" short and long certificates are and then also state that I should do a corrective action for the same thing.
I met my customer's stated and unstated requirements. I knew what she meant by long form certificate, even if she didn't.