ARL wrote:
--> We are an affiliate of international company having leading role of
--> certification. Few of our competitors are writing to our certified
--> companies for the takeover (switchover) within the validity period
--> of our certificates at no charge and even no onsite audit, but
--> straight away issuance of new certificate. This is quite an
--> un-professional practice and damaging the overall purpose and
--> prestige of the ISO 9000 certifications.
-->
--> Comparing to this the financial audit companies are not allowed to
--> takeover the clients from their competitors without permission or
--> at least not at the cost lower to them.
-->
--> Do you know of any regulation or the procedure to handle this
--> problem.
-->
--> Thanks and regards...

I know of no regulation which addresses this issue.

I do not see this as comparable to a financial audit. A company typically has a pretty stable system if they've been registered for a few years. (Stable is up for definition, I agree). For example, TRW just took over LucasVerity (bought, whatever). While Lucas is now part of TRW, it will be keeping within its defined quality / manufacturing systems for quite a while as a gradual evolution is put into place. So even if a takeover (buy-out, whatever) is under way, unlike many company financial systems, most manufacturing systems will remain relatively stable.

I personally see where I would accept such a switch over with evidence based upon the company's audit schedule. Let's say a company is on a 6 month schedule with its registrar and is audited in January and July. They go through their July audit and decide to switch registrars - which happens in September.

The question is can the new registrar issue a certificate without visiting which is good through the remainder of the 6 month cycle. Risk factors considered, I (personally) would not see this as a problem. ISO9001 is not what it was even 5 years ago. I have been in companies which carried a current certificate which were blatantly outside the bounds of the requirements - I would have taken their cert away. This is particularly true with multi nationals which have many facilities and (my opinion) they really 'take it easy on' clients in order to keep the business. So - I feel if a company is midstream (has been registered for a couple of years) and can submit a years worth of audits (and related info) to show things are going well, issuing a certificate good until the January audit (from our example) would be a low risk.

However, I do not know what the convention is and I agree it is unprofessional. I will say business is more 'competitive' than in years past and I expect it to continue. Heck - Microsoft gave away (can you say FREE!) software (Explorer) in an attempt to crush a prospective competitor (Netscape). Ethics and professionalism are in the eye of the beholder more than ever before. 20 years ago in the US doctors did not advertise - as I remember (I could be wrong here) the AMA forbade advertising at one time. Slowly the 'professionalism' of some doctors eroded and doctors started advertising. Now it's very common place. Just like you, many doctors took this as an attack or raid on their 'customers' - many doctors still see advertising as unprofessional. Maybe they're right.

Maybe some of those who visit here who are closer to a registrar relationship can give their 2 cents worth.

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 19 September 1999).]

well....lets see...

URS, who I am affiliated with, takes each transfer individually. As you say, timing and past history is key. The standard is to do a cursury visit,... on site doc audit plus a look at CA/complaints and internal audits (and mgt review if time permits or if commitment needs to be verified based on the auditors observations)..... then based on the results of that review would continue with the 6 month schedule or schedule a full re-audit. They do not actively seek out transfers as a means to boost sales, but welcome them.

As a client, if I were approached unsolicited by a registrar during my registration period, I would be livid. No matter their expertise or cost considerations, they would be toast in my book. I consider such a move totally lacking in professionalism. I will only hire those I consider professional. So, registrars out there, take that into consideration when you solicit.

As a client, if I were approached unsolicited by a registrar during my registration period, I would be livid. No matter their expertise or cost considerations, they would be toast in my book. I consider such a move totally lacking in professionalism. I will only hire those I consider professional. So, registrars out there, take that into consideration when you solicit.

Oh, my lord! a 1999er! Your considered opinion - Has anything changed?

Oh, my lord! a 1999er! Your considered opinion - Has anything changed?

No. Life goes on. Competition between registrars is even more fierce. Registrar performance still elicits too many horror stories. Too many firms just want the "paper on the wall" at the cheapest price.

Hi guys,

Right now in malaysia, we have a CB that is competing with consultants and other C.B for business. The have quated a lot of client guranteed certification.

their pricing included both consulting and audit. and this have give a big impact to my consulting business.

Question : Where can i complaint, Is UKAS sleeping?

p/s: the C.b is accredited by UKAS and SAC (Singapore accreditation council)

dont think i can mention the C.B names as i think only the branch in malaysia is doing this?

Regards,
Omar

Hi guys,

Right now in malaysia, we have a CB that is competing with consultants and other C.B for business. The have quated a lot of client guranteed certification.

their pricing included both consulting and audit. and this have give a big impact to my consulting business.

Question : Where can i complaint, Is UKAS sleeping?

p/s: the C.b is accredited by UKAS and SAC (Singapore accreditation council)

dont think i can mention the C.B names as i think only the branch in malaysia is doing this?

Regards,
Omar

Omar, why should you bother complaining to UKAS or any other accreditation body? Are they not paid to do their own work? And if they are not effective at it do they not risk the reputation and prospects for that entire registration industry, and their own employment prospects?

In business, people who will not do their own work in obtaining pertinent market intelligence are asleep. And if they expect others to do it for them, for free, they are lazy or apathetic about their business. Whatever fate has in store for them, they need only blame themselves.

And, if any C.B. does wish to act as "poacher and gamekeeper", or ignore the "rules" and "mores" of their business sector, people such as yourself who are (rightly) appalled by their lack of ethical conduct need only resolve NOT to award them any business. When enough potential customers such as you do that, the market does the rest. (God Bless Adam Smith's timeless perception.)

While you might not wish to publicly accuse the C.B. of the conduct you (and most at the Cove would deplore), you might be tempted to post a simple statement of opinion such as, "In my opinion, if you might have the XXX C.B. as your potential C.B., you may wish to consider others before making a final decision".

Omar, speak up! Say it loud and clear!

Make the statement proud and loud, Omar. If you do not have the facts right, you may as well lie low under the coconut shells. (Like the katak bawah tempurong!).

As a consultant, I am sure you know where and whom to direct the complaints to. Or is it that you do not know the roles and responsibility of IAF???. You are not doing any justice to the quality world without speaking out!
Let hear it out!

Could we be sure we are talking "apples and apples" versus "apples and road apples"?

I am aware there is a so-called "loophole for registrars" which allows them to conduct "training courses" without being tagged "consultants."

Before we (collectively or individually) go hunting scalps, we need to know precisely what activity the registrar in question is performing.

Certainly, there are registrars and geographic managers of registrars who have stepped over the line from auditing into consulting. Usually, investigation shows the situation is founded in ignorance rather than venality. In my opinion, the ignorant need a wake-up call from the auditing community. The venal need to be drummed out of the business.

With apologies to Omar, partial information is almost worse than no information, because it can inflame passions without providing a route to relieve stress. Even if you are loathe to identify the company, at least post the exact language (including the "tiny print") in which registration is "guaranteed."

Well, the thing this C.B is going around promising guaranteed Certification to some of our current client. Some of our client now felt is a waste to hire consultant as they could have actually used the C.B that could give them the certificate and do all their paperwork necessary. No training needed.

we know a few C.B and told them about this and they could not do anything. And ask us to let the customer choose their preference "Certificate without any system" or a "good system that is certifiable".

Some of the SME we approached has feedback that the same C.B has promised to give the quality manual and procedure and the certificate and the same day of the audit?!!!!!

We might lose our source of income here if this is going on, people might stop respecting certified company if it's get that easy.

Well here goes, AllanJ and Silverhawk , "In my opinion, if you might have the EQA as your potential C.B., you may wish to consider others before making a final decision". I stressed that this is only my opinion.

regards,

Well here goes, AllanJ and Silverhawk , "In my opinion, if you might have the EQA as your potential C.B., you may wish to consider others before making a final decision". I stressed that this is only my opinion.

regards,
I will take especial note of such an opinion and will make it known to any of my clients who find themselves in a similar position of choosing a registrar. (Of course, it will be for a client to make their own judgement and decision.)

Thank you :thanx:

I will take especial note of such an opinion and will make it known to any of my clients who find themselves in a similar position of choosing a registrar. (Of course, it will be for a client to make their own judgement and decision.)

Thank you :thanx:

Hi Allenj,

I dont think the other branch except in this country is doing the same thing.

I've met them (the malaysian) and found the office adress they used on the name card for johor branch dont even exist yet. (building under Construction).

Thanks...

Omar,

It's really news! Is this EQA operating in Malaysia. If the SME is going to get the certificate and QM together at one go, have u bring to the attention of SMIDEC or other agencies.

I am :mad: that you are allowing this to happen in Malaysia. If you have the info pls. forward to relevant authorities. I am sure we do not want a "name" to it. You owe the public and the good name of Malaysia a duty and a responsible to bring to the attention of the authorities. This is not about your rice bowl and mine but it is the name of Malaysia at stake.

Pls. forward your info to the right authorities and make sure that immediate actions are taken. You knew something is bad about it and haven been happening yet you choose it ignore!

Pls. do something for the country before it really get out of hand!!!

Allright Fellow countryman,

Even other C.B can do nothing to them, what make you think that i can.
The best thing i can do is not to recommend this C.B to anybody. And if anybody ask me about them , i will give the name of their client for them to refer to.

Yes , we have to ensure Malaysia name is protected. But EQA is not accredited by DSM they are accredited by UKAS.

You can also call around Penang and check up on them. They have Bad repo there, but you know what? Being the way they are , they got more business from people who only want a cert on the wall.

They are also very cheap , free Doc review, 1k permanday for assessment and surveilance. (they always do 1 manday for everything). You know what? by stating what i just did i just got them more client.

Folks,

Looking at it from the accreditation side of things.....

If this CB is in fact providing consulting, manuals, etc., and then the registration, from the same group, whether at the same day or over a few months....then that is not allowed under Guide 62 or the soon-to-arrive ISO/IEC 17011.

If the CB is accredited by UKAS, then the CORRECT thing to do is to lodge a formal complaint with UKAS. They will investigate. Now, I will not get into the debate about suspension of registrars and so forth, as there is already a thread on that.

One last note......make sure you have the evidence to support your claim before you protest to UKAS.

Hershal

Im gathering the proof now, i.e contracts , proposal.....

Anyhooo,

The customer i've lost , heard something about EQA and now is calling me back.. Got an appointment with them this wednesday....

ISO will have a longer live if there are more customer like this that do care about the system and not just the certificate...

Love the Cove,

Regards...

Update, (even if nobody care).

Got my client back, anyway saw the contract and proposal.

Stated both payment, in 1 invoice. Invoiced by a consultant company stating some money for him, some money for the C.B.

All invoice and proposal for consultation are issued by and signed by the consultant conpany. The Actual C.B guy who's doing the actual consultation work has no signature whatsoever anywhere in the consultation proposal.

In short, the C.B guy is not registered as the consultant, he used another conpany name to charge for the consultation work. But his signature is only on the Certification Audit proposal, under C.B conpany name.

So , he is saved ? What can we do ?

Note: The spelling mistake on company , is intentional...hehe

Omar,

Go to the Registrar of Business and Company to do a company search. Check if you can find the name of the inidividual appearing on both the consultancy and CB company.

Submit the supporting documents to UKAS. Perhaps, send them to BPR and Institute Integri Malaysia at Jalan Duta, Kuala Lumpur (attn. Datuk Sulaiman, Persident) ot to Dr Zainal Abidin @ Business Ethics Insitute of Malaysia email : beim@tm.net.my.

Even that CB is not accredited by DSM, send the details to Puan Kalidah Mustafa for her action at thge next IAF meeting. It is important for her to act fast. I am sure that she will speak for the interests of all quality people.

Keep to yourself would not help the nation and people. It is unethical!!

KM

Thanks,

Check the registration, and the C.B guy name is not in the consultant company, he just used their name for invoicing and other stuff. They might only have verbal agreement or something.

What can i report now?

Thanks for all the contact...

Contemporary thoughts?

Marc, if your question is about the “state of the union” in terms of registrars fighting for business, I will add some contemporary thoughts.

Registrars poaching certified clients from other registrars is on the decline because the organizations that just want the paper on the wall got smart really quick and realized that they could save a bundle playing a CB against each other. Auditor day rates have been squeezed pretty bad for those CBs that just play the price game. So, poaching is no longer attractive because the rates you are able to sell your services for typically will bring no profit margin. As an example of how the market wises up, several large organizations have put their certificate programs up for bid using reverse auction methodologies. Talk about commoditization mentality…

I have been in this business for 18 years now and I have seen a tremendous amount of turnover in the competition. There is a large CB in the US that every month announces, through a specialized publication, the appointments of their sales people in North America. Either they have 2,000 sales people now, or their turnover is just off the charts.

I find quite amusing the difference between the early 1990’s and today. Back in the early nineties, there were a handful of Registrars operating in the US. For the most part, there was no sales effort. Actually, sales was considered a dirty word. It was a totally reactive approach. Organizations that needed to be certified to ISO 9001 had to work hard to find the CB’s in order to get a quote. Nowadays, telemarketing, email blasts, focused campaigns, websites, webinars, trade shows, etc. all the marketing tools are in the CB’s portfolio. Sales became an obsession and blind focus to most CB’s: early market share, emerging markets, service bundling, etc…dominate the discussions, but it is pathetic how many CB’s use the typical “sales people” to (try to) sell their services. Without due consideration to the aspects of selling a service that requires technical knowledge, most CBs experience fiasco after fiasco in sales results. I can’t count how many times I scored sales because I was able to answer technical questions on the spot with well reasoned answers while my competitors had to use the “I’ll get back to you on that”.

So, like the rest of the business world, the certification industry is continually changing and adapting. A few players are changing in a way to make their services more meaningful and sustainable, while many others are basically being squeezed and struggling to stay afloat and be able to provide assessments that aggregate any value to their clients and interested stakeholders.

Sounds about right. Yes, I've watched the many changes since the early 1990's and watched as small registrars started popping up left and right. I think we even discussed that here at one time. It costed something like US$20K to start up a registrar a few years back, if I remember correctly.

Sounds about right. Yes, I've watched the many changes since the early 1990's and watched as small registrars started popping up left and right. I think we even discussed that here at one time. It costed something like US$20K to start up a registrar a few years back, if I remember correctly.The ANAB accreditation fees are available through http://www.anab.org/HTMLFiles/docs/Aps/FM5011-CBfees.pdf

Registrars poaching certified clients from other registrars is on the decline because the organizations that just want the paper on the wall got smart really quick and realized that they could save a bundle playing a CB against each other. Auditor day rates have been squeezed pretty bad for those CBs that just play the price game. So, poaching is no longer attractive because the rates you are able to sell your services for typically will bring no profit margin. As an example of how the market wises up, several large organizations have put their certificate programs up for bid using reverse auction methodologies. Talk about commoditization mentality… I think I know where you are coming from Sidney. As one of the big guys you have most to lose from churn and CBs like mine have most to gain. That isn't to say we are targetting DnV, there are plenty of other softer targets about.:lol: When we "poach" clients it is normally because their current CB is giving them a poor service and we can do better (and still provide a credible accredited service).

I find quite amusing the difference between the early 1990’s and today. Back in the early nineties, there were a handful of Registrars operating in the US. For the most part, there was no sales effort. Actually, sales was considered a dirty word. It was a totally reactive approach. Organizations that needed to be certified to ISO 9001 had to work hard to find the CB’s in order to get a quote. Nowadays, telemarketing, email blasts, focused campaigns, websites, webinars, trade shows, etc. all the marketing tools are in the CB’s portfolio. Sales became an obsession and blind focus to most CB’s: early market share, emerging markets, service bundling, etc…dominate the discussions, but it is pathetic how many CB’s use the typical “sales people” to (try to) sell their services. Without due consideration to the aspects of selling a service that requires technical knowledge, most CBs experience fiasco after fiasco in sales results. I can’t count how many times I scored sales because I was able to answer technical questions on the spot with well reasoned answers while my competitors had to use the “I’ll get back to you on that”.Aaah, but that is because you are one of the few people entitled to wear their underpants (shorts) outside their trousers (pants). :D
B2B sales are not that special. I have seen plenty of guys who have managed to convert to selling ISO and plenty of ISO "specialists" who can't sell the product they are very familiar with. ISO is like any other service and selling ISO assessment and certification is like selling any other professional service. But you are right, if you have a salesforce that lacks credibility (when it is credibility you are selling) then you cannot expect to be taken seriously.

So, like the rest of the business world, the certification industry is continually changing and adapting. A few players are changing in a way to make their services more meaningful and sustainable, while many others are basically being squeezed and struggling to stay afloat and be able to provide assessments that aggregate any value to their clients and interested stakeholders.Agreed, like a lot we are trying to sell the assessment (and the value that gives to our clients) with the certificate as a useful by-product but it is a long slog to get that message across when the market can only see the certificate as being the product they buy.

When we "poach" clients it is normally because their current CB is giving them a poor service and we can do better (and still provide a credible accredited service).
That is not poaching. That is providing the client with what they need. By all means, when a CB drops the ball, it is good to know that they have choices. Healthy competition is the essence of our western business model. The problem, imo, starts when the ignorant "consumers" don't know the differences well enough to make an educated decision.

Competition, that's the key!

2nd rate that they are:lol: Right Sid?

2nd rate that they are:lol: Right Sid?I don't know much about Paul's CB since they are not very active this side of the Atlantic, but Paul's comments and participation here, at the Cove, for sure elevate the discussions. He is a worthy "competitor". If I had to gage SIRA CS by Paul's comments, I would give them high grades.

Paul probably has to compete with my group more than yours Sid. I think key things for everyone is the service and value we all need to supply.

Paul, one thing I learned from a common friend that Sid and I have (a gentleman named Tom Haney) is that there is more than enough business for us all.

I get folks in my courses that use the services of probably every registration body there is and 1 thing they can all say is that I tell them to stick with who they are using. I won't use what I do to solicit someone elses business (seems to be an ethics thing to me). (Now if I am specifically asked I will provide contact information for where they can get information about services).

Paul, one thing I learned from a common friend that Sid and I have (a gentleman named Tom Haney) is that there is more than enough business for us all.http://www.ugoplayer.com//forum/images/smilies/buba.gifJust as a point of clarification. Mr. Haney is an acquaintance of mine. I would not call him a friend.

Figure of speech

Without a question, the most important trait of an auditor is his/her ability to communicate effectively. That includes careful choice of words. Especially in the cyber world where, once posted, they will linger forever.

And the point about the existence of enough business to all CB's, my main concern is not the volume of business, but the fact that a percentage of existing CB's are hurting the whole concept of independent certification to ALL INVOLVED. Some do it by being unethical and unprofessional. Others simply damage the concept by being totally incompetent and gutless.

Much as I hate to jump into a discussion that appears to be being carried out amicably it does appear that the CB I represent is being discussed - so let's check to see if my understanding is right before I get too excited. :mad:
Competition, that's the key! Absolutely. I am pleased to compete with any CB on any work that is within our competence - thankfully that is quite a wide scope. We can't compete with the global reputation of the BSi and DnVs of this world although our reputation in the fields we work in is good. We can compete in terms of service delivery and credibility - no problem!:agree1:

2nd rate that they are:lol: Right Sid? I trust your tongue was firmly in your cheek, Randy. Otherwise I feel the urge to respond. :caution:

You betcha!

The pretty, robin-egg blue signs at Chrysler's factories around here in flyover country say they're "ISO 9002 certified." (Even DCX's site refers to being "ISO 9001.")

According to my watch, next week we'll be celebrating the third anniversary of 9002's demise. Uh, I have to write a NCR if a client is misusing or erroneous regarding referencing ISO certification. How does Chrysler get away with it?

The Madfox
(How many LaBaron's you see on the street?)

Chrysler? Oh yeah, I remember. That's the car my grandpa started to drive after DeSoto went away.