The company I am currently working with wants me to direct the process of selecting a registrar. They do have a good project management system so I thought this would be no problem.

My first concern was my previous experience with registrars, which I held in check, because I did not want to skew the selection process.

I went to the quality digest web page and downloaded the results of the July 2000 registrar assesments. That is where I decided to start my mission.

I designed a matrix using the results of their various rankings in the study and added my own weighted ratings based on our companies' wishes. As a result we came up with a group of 5 registrars that responded to our request for quotes. ($15,000.00 to $23,000.00) (<40 employees)

To date we have had 2 of the original quoting companies come in and give us their presentation and answer our questions.

The 1st company came in with their representative, plus the auditor we would be working with. All went well and we liked their total package.

The 2nd company sent a rep. from their company that "might" be our auditor. I asked him how critical path, as called out in TS-16949, could be realized. He proceeded to ask me if I had a copy of TS that he could "borrow" before he answered the question. I gave him my copy and after I showed him where critical path was noted, he took 5 minutes to answer and said to the group that "Critical Path" was nothing more than having a process flow!!!!!!!!!!!!

We were not impressed with the presentation!

Am I incorrect in thinking that any representatives from a Registrar should at the very minimum have a copy of the standard with them and be well versed in the process?

I even sent them a copy of the questions we were going to ask before they were scheduled.

We are now down to the third interview with a registrar that I have worked with in the past as well as the Lead Auditor.

I guess my questions are:

I have worked with the registrar and auditor I want in the past, should I remove myself from the process?

One of the 1st 2 registrars guanteed registation over time. (no, not pj)

Should I be looking for something more!!!!!!!

If anybody wants to know the registrars and auditors use the E-Mail......

ASD...

[This message has been edited by Al Dyer (edited 06 April 2001).]

You might also want to look through the presentation at Quality Management System Implementation (http://elsmar.com/Imp/) - there are some suggestions on choosing registrars there. In addition, there are several files in the pdf_files directory. Look for the files beginning with 'Registrar'.

You are experiencing a typical 'registrar interview'.

->The 1st company came in with their representative, plus
->the auditor we would be working with.

Auditor turnover is pretty high. Don't get too attached to one specific auditor.

->Am I incorrect in thinking that any representatives from a
->Registrar should at the very minimum have a copy of the
->standard with them and be well versed in the process?

I would think they would have a copy.

->I have worked with the registrar and auditor I want in the
->past, should I remove myself from the process?

Why would you?

->One of the 1st 2 registrars guanteed registation over
->time. (no, not pj)

Almost all of them will promise that.

->Should I be looking for something more!

Do you want something else?

[This message has been edited by Marc Smith (edited 07 April 2001).]

Al, beware that the registras in that survey were selected based on some money changing hands....I forget the real method...from paid advertisers only, or something..not a real representative sample what ever it was... I've forgot the details, just know it was skewed.

What do you get for 15k?????? You nave every right to talk to your auditor not a "maybe" one and you were not expecting too much.

Barb,

Thanks, I need all the help I can get. I have worked with a couple of auditors in the past who have refused to work with some registrars.

One person we met with was surprised that I actually brought up that artical and assured me that the people in the organization that received the lower scores "were very upset". This is the same person that did not bring a copy of the specification and asked me for my copy.!

Thanks for the help!

ASD...

Al/Barb,

FYI - Quality Digest Survey
Selection for inclusion in the article required the response of a certain number (I want to say 5) of surveys. We chose a company that didn't make it on the survey. They missed the number by one. Big deal. You can ask the registrar for a copy of their rating by the magazine even if they didn't make the published article. Our registrar offered this information to us up front, without having to ask for it.

Regards,
Carol

I assume you're referring to getting ISO9000 certified...

One of the major tenets of the Purchasing element in 9000 '94 is evaluating your suppliers. Your Registrar is a supplier of a service and must pass whatever requirements you levy against a supplier via your evaluation criteria. You set the criteria based on the needs of your business. How you evaluate them is your business. They should respect your gathering objective evidence of them meeting your criteria! Remind them of that and see what their reaction is! Your concern is that your system provide your customer with what they want, and if their certification of your system is part of that process, then they should be subject to the requirements, just as you are! BTW, that's also part of the Contract Review element that requires that expectations be fully defined and met!

As an evaluation, I would fully define your expectations from a registrar and see who commits to meeting those requirements the way you want them met.

------------------
See you down life's highway!

Eric

Eric,

Good post, I'll admit I've never used that tactic before, sounds good.

It is TS, but the thought process is the same.

ASD...

I have seen registrars ask to see me (as their consultant) and them (the registrar) on the company's approved supplier list and I have seen them ask what the evaluation and acceptance criteria are for both.

On all invoices I clearly state that I must be on their Approved Supplier Listing for ISO 9001/QS-9000 compliance.

Hi There,
We are an ISO9001 Certified company. We are planning to upgrade from the 1994 Edition to 2000 Edition. Now there were a lot certifying bodies out there. And it would be a competition to each one of them. Previously we used to stick to one certifying body. Now, I'm planning to entertain each one of them. My concern is:
How am I gonna evaluate this certifying body? What are the criteria that i need to consider? Was it cost? quality of their service? How am i gonna evaluate their quality of service, since we are the one to be certified? Am I gonna evaluate them just like a supplier that offer a service, e.g. service provider. Please help.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Raffy

Marc has a excellent "how to choose a registrar" file in the FTP section. Take a look around the rest of the site.

I think the more important issue would be the auditor, not the registrar. We put together a list of questions, mostly related to interpretation, and interviewed the auditors first.

In some instances I already knew the auditors and were indepedents and in other cases I contacted the registrar and asked them to send an auditor from their staff for our interview.

In the end we found an independent that contracted out to different registrars. He was very good in directing us to potential registrars that would fit our business structure, and steering us away from registrars that would not.

As I had worked with the auditor we choose in the past, I didn't lead his interview. In the end, the steering committee made the choice by vote. (welllll, maybe I subconciously "swayed" the individual steering committee members http://16949.com/ubb/wink.gif)

Just a thought.

ASD...

Hi Everyone,
Today a registrar made some presentation in front of us. I learned a lot by looking on the guide that was been attched in the FTP.
How to Choose a Registrar. It was great. I know that they are trying to sell out their service to us, however there are some questions that..I don't know how do they will arrive an answer. I would like to share it with you. " What is the value added service we can get from you (the registrar)? Please comment. Is there any proof that you can show to us that your the BEST Registrar in the world? This is actually a perception for almost anybody, because in case when you are a small company, at least when you were being certified, that certifying body is SOMEONE BIG i.e. famous in the world. Is there a site where I can visit or can anybody here can share any marketing survey on different registrars out there world-wide? Plese advice.
Thanks in advance,
Raffy

There is a monthly magazine called Quality Digest. Check out www.qualitydigest.com (http://www.qualitydigest.com) for reviews of all kinds of quality related stuff.

Annually they put a Registrar survey in the magazine for folks like us to respond to. I'm sure there are others out there as well. By comparing you can compare lists (say the top 10 of each).

The July issue of Quality Digest magazine has the results of their latest survey on registrars. This would be a good place to start looking a how clients feel about their registrar. Also take into consideration all of the travel expenses. Some registrars will not include them in their quotes. Some will charge travel time plus expenses.

A few years back I "shopped" for a registrar as follows:
Written quotes from "top ten" companys.
Interviewed the "top five" of those, after researching who gives the best bang for the buck.
Chose what I thought were the best final three, had them send me the resumes of the auditors they would be using.(One company refused to send resumes.Told them "Sorry, Charlie. You just lost").
Chose a final, FINAL company that I thought offered the best overall service, had them send over the auditor I chose for a interview.
Interview an auditor? You betcha ! It's my money.This approach worked great, we have a good relationship with a fine auditor that works with us as a partner, not just there to make a buck. How long did the process take? About four months. Hey, you're signing up for three years. Best do the homework.

[This message has been edited by Ross Simpson (edited 16 July 2001).]

Regarding registrar selection: Will you get charged for review of NCN's?

-> What is the value added service we can get from you (the
-> registrar)? Please comment

Beware of the statement "Value Added". They all say they do and this has been a big buzz phrase. I would ask them to explain exactly how this is so.

I will admit here that when I hear this I cringe. The rationalization is always a variation on the same theme: "We find problems that you don't and/or point out where you can improve." Under this definition a consultant is also 'value added'.

If you take a close look at those words - value added - what do they mean to you? Many people have different definitions for that phrase.

A typical product passes through several value-adding activities before reaching the final consumer. There are five general ways by which value may be added.

1. Value is added by physically changing the Form of raw materials or intermediate products. Butchering beef, milling wheat into flour, and canning pineapple slices are examples.

2. Location and Time values are added by transporting and storing goods so that they will be conveniently available for consumer purchase.

3. Possession value is added by wholesalers, retailers, and others who facilitate trade. Activities here include credit, insurance, and the transfer of ownership rights.

4. Finally, value is added by providing information about products. Advertising and promotion, grades and standards, trademarks, and labels are typical examples.

I believe there was a recent thread where the definition of value added was discussed, but I might have seen it at another site.

This link is somewhat old, but it does give you a view of how one 'company' (this is a US government site) defines Value Added with respect to its 'business'.

***DEAD LINK REMOVED***

Sometimes a company will consider Purchasing a value added function while others scoff.

All this said - beware of how one defines Value Added. No one (or company) which you employ - internal or external (contract, consultant, etc.) - for any reason is going to admit they are NOT value added. Many would argue that the custodial functions are 'value added' and can rationalize it quite handily.

Like the very word quality, the words 'value added' now have a very broad meaning - almost so broad as to be useless.

You are hiring a registrar to come in and audit your company. You should define what you expect from an audit. If you have other expectations, define them. Keep away from vagaries such as 'value added'.

When we first started pursuit of ISO 9002 registration of our QMS my first priority was selection of our registrar. I looked at 63 registrars,during this process I did the following:
1. reviewed literature.
2. checked references.
3. sent surveys that I scored
4. interviewed selected ones
FYI BASED ON OUR COMPANIES NEEDS THESE WERE OUR TOP 11 IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER: DNV, SQA, NSAI, LRQA, CRS, ORI, AQA, BVQI,TRA, NSF-ISR and UL.
It was amazing some of the things that registrars would not do (some may have had valid reasoning,but it cost them potential business)
1.missed deadlines ( time frames were set for receiving info)
2. references not provided or just a few (many would only provide their promo. list)
3. no quote provided
4. no response to survey
5. no response at all ( 2 registrars, believe it or not)
We then cut that list to 5 and had presentations by each. We then cut that to 3 and interviewed or would be auditor and selected from those 3. I would use the same process but the results may be different depending on the company.
I did use the quality digest survey to see how close their results was to real life. The results:
1. 3 OF QD TOP 5 ON OUR TOP 11
2. 2 OF QD TOP 5 ON OUR TOP 5
3. 1 OF QD TOP 5 ON OUR TOP 3

Originally posted by gpainter

It was amazing some of the things that registrars would not do (some may have had valid reasoning,but it cost them potential business)
1.missed deadlines ( time frames were set for receiving info)
2. references not provided or just a few (many would only provide their promo. list)
3. no quote provided
4. no response to survey
5. no response at all ( 2 registrars, believe it or not)


And these groups would be asked to audit my Company's Business practices? When pigs fly!:smokin:

Maybe take a look at these, they may help.

I couldn't attach two documents so here is the second

We used a combination of interviews with registrars,auditors,cusomers and scored survey. Some tips:
1. interview the auditor (in person or via phone).
2. talk to their other customers (not the ones on their promo list).
3. know the registrar's policy.
4. pick the one that is the best fit for your company and its maturity level in its QMS.

Hi Al,
Originally quoted by Al:
"I think the more important issue would be the auditor, not the registrar. We put together a list of questions, mostly related to interpretation, and interviewed the auditors first."
As a start, I make use the one in free files, "Interviewing a Registrar" was big help for me to understand what are the things that we should know regarding a Registrar. We haven't talk to the auditor itself.

"In some instances I already knew the auditors and were indepedents and in other cases I contacted the registrar and asked them to send an auditor from their staff for our interview."
In view of this, are we going to document the process of interviewing an auditor??:confused:

Hi gpainter,
Originally quoted by gpainter:
"talk to their other customers (not the ones on their promo list)."
Are you talking about who were their currently certified?:confused:

Thank you very much,
Raffy

Yes, I requested a complete current list and called random customers on that list. I felt that the ones on the promo would only give good answers. I was surprised how many customers were unhappy with the registrar and actually had bad feelings about them. Needless to say they are not are registrar.

Registrar/Auditor Sample questionnaire:

Al D.

Descargué su cuestionario del secretario. Eso trae el número de sus
referencias a seises. Una pregunta me ha sorprendido. Los
secretarios cargan generalmente al cierre fuera de nonconformances?
Apreciaría su respuesta en español. Tenga una poca diversión!
Guarde en acarrear!

:smokin:

Raffy,

At my previous company, the auditor actually wrote a minor finding against us because his company was not on our approved suppliers list. After that, I started treating them just like any other supplier. I would definitely keep evidence of supplier evaluation for the certifying bodies that you evaulate.

Have a happy weekend,
Hank
:)

Hi Al,
Thank you for the questionnaire.
It helps.
best regards,
Raffy

Many companies require that their vendors are registered to ISO 9001 as part of the approved vendor criteria. How many of you are using a Registrar that is registered to ISO 9001? Just curious.

Carl-

We do not require registration from any of our vendors. Our registrar is accredited by the RAB and RvA, but is not registered to any standard.

I think the better question is how many Registrars/Notified bodies are ISO Certified/Registered. I know that the RAB, RvA, JAB, etc... will audit the Registrars/Notified Bodies to make sure they are complying with the Standards.

ISO guy,

I am not so sure about your comments about RAB, RvA etc. auditing the Registarars. What kind of audit are the registrars subject to? How do they insure they are complying with the standard if they are not auditing them to it? They must have some standard they go by. Has anyone ever seen a registrars corrective and preventive action system? Read their Quality Manual? And if they are audited by some other means, so what? There are plenty of industries that are subject to various audits for compliance issues and they take the initiative to ALSO be ISO 9001 registered.

To my knowledge, there are NO registrars that are registered to ISO 9001. Why not? After all, we are supposed to be using the standard for continuous improvement of our goods and services, right?

I have worked in a facility that the criteria stated to be an approved vendor required a registration to ISO 9001, or an audit performed by me (the Quality Manager). Every audit by the registrar looked at the approved vendor list with their name on it and they never said a word.

Sounds pretty much like the fox gaurding the henhouse to me.
Oh well, just some food for thought.
In the meantime I am in the market for a registrar for my new Company. Think I will be able to find one that is registered?

Carl-

There are a couple of RAB Registrars that are registered to ISO 9001. Just go to the websites and find them.

I personally have performed a 3rd party audit on a Registrar. They have certain guidelines they are required to meet to be certified to issue certificates to ISO standards.:bigwave:

Originally posted by energy
Al D.

Descargué su cuestionario del secretario. Eso trae el número de sus
referencias a seises. Una pregunta me ha sorprendido. Los
secretarios cargan generalmente al cierre fuera de nonconformances?
Apreciaría su respuesta en español. Tenga una poca diversión!
Guarde en acarrear!

:smokin:

Energy,

Translated that reads:

I unloaded its questionnaire of the secretary. That brings the number of its references to seises. A question has surprised to me. The secretaries load generally to the closing outside nonconformances? He would appreciate his answer in Spanish. Have one little diversion! Keep in carrying!


Explain por favor!:smokin:

Yes - there are a number of registrars which are themselves registered.

The RAB does what they call 'Witness' audits where an RAB rep accompanies the registrar on a registration audit. They just watch and say nothing. The RAB also peruses a registrar's records (yearly?) as in an audit.

Yes there are numerous Registrars that are ISO certified. The RAB RvA etc... also audit the Registrars office. You think your company goes through lots of audits try working for a Registrar. I do and have been through a witness audit for 9K2K no less. Yes there are lots of bad Registrars out there but there are also very good Registrars also if you would like a couple names let me know.

ISO Guy,

Currently, I have been tasked with the Registrar selection plan. While I feel it's way too early, Mgt. doesn't. Have you got anybody within an easy commute to Connecticut? One who we can work with? ;)
I have a list from our consultant, but I would like to see if any of yours are on on his list. Do you think that the consultant gets a finder's fee for getting one of his nominees chosen? Makes no difference to me. A couple of rounds of golf, nice dinner, nice hotel and some tickets for sporting events at our fantastic Civic Center should do the trick:biglaugh:
Wadda u think?:confused: :smokin:

Try NSAI (National Standards Authority of Ireland). They're in Vermont, and have folks all over.

This thread made me curious about registered registrars. We all are familiar with the Quality Digest Registrar Survey. I took the top five in each of their catagories and added our registrar and our top five that we looked at and did a WORLD PREFERRED SEARCH based on the addresses given and found that I had15 different companies and none were registered to any standard. I did find 3 that were, but I did not do a search on all 60 +. The three that I found were ABS, Moody and SGS. If you are QS, are you going to have to get a new registrar? Talking about customer pressure. Happy Turkey Day to ALL :lick:

Energy try TUV Rheinland of North America,Newton CT. 888-975-3943

Energy, I would have to say yes that the consultant would get a finders fee for you choosing a Registrar that he pointed you towards. My company currently uses TUV, while the audtors they send us are excellent the customers service for TUV stinks!!! I would love to change Registrars I think we are getting soaked by ours 20k for three days two guys to me is out rageous. I have quotes from other Registrars that are a 1/3 of the price, however the powers that be in the company I work for do not want to swtich, for what I think is a very poor reason, but hey who am I to know anything about business matters I just work in Quality, this comes from the same people that don't even have a businees plan in place for running the company. Ok enough about that.

NSF-ISR in Michigan they are very good and in my opinion very inexpensive for a large Registrar. 1-888-673-9000 if you want more specifics about the company e-mail me and I will give you some names of people to talk to.

The other not sure what your business is but DLS-Quality Technology in New York, small Registrar very service oriantated very reasonable in price.

And hey you never know if you decide to go with one of those Registrars I may be your auditor!!

Anyway feel free to e-mail me and I will be more than happy to provide any information I can.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!:)

As far as registrars getting ISO certified themselves, well let's just say that of the ones I heard of doing that, it was essentially done through the backdoor either by another division of their own company or by another registrar (because who else could do it?) and what sort of credibility do you think that lends anyway? If it is a registrar who is registering another registrar, then what gives your confidence that the registrar that did the certifying is competent? Because they themselves are registered? And who would have registered THEM? It is a chicken and egg and doesn't mean a darn thing. If it ran this way it would be a self-policing industry running amok.

The registrars are essentially certified to their own standard. It encompasses ISO 900X requirements and then some. It is the accreditation bodies that do the certifying for a registrar and tell you if they meet snuff. If you want to identify a good registrar, try choosing one who has had their feet put to the fire by many different accreditation bodies, rather than just one. I worked for a registrar for four years and experienced my share of accreditation audits and surveillance visits. We held 17 accreditations for 9000 and 14 for 14001.

Some accreditation bodies are lazy and will pass anyone. RAB audits are a joke. You can put the evidence of nonconformance right in front of their nose and they won't do anything. UKAS is pickier, InMetro was a bugger, etc. What several accreditation bodies will accept, there will be one or more who will say "no". The more accreditations a registrar carries, the tighter their controls have to be. And if you decide to go with a smaller registrar without multiple accreditations, then at least go with one that has UKAS. I would not accept a registrar who carried RAB only.

That's my 4 cents worth...;)

Oh, and btw, office location of a registrar means nothing. The auditors are stationed all over the country. They aren't office based. The only ones in the office are the administrative and managerial staff. And where an assessor lives is equally unimportant because he ain't coming to see you from his house - he's coming to see you from wherever his other client(s) that week are ! So don't limit yourself to finding one "close by". :bigwave:

Other recommendations I have are:

Intertek Services
NSF-ISR (as previously given)
AOQC Moody

I don't have any relationship with these other than what I've heard or personally seen.

You can also look at:

American Global Standards
International Standards Accreditation Authority

Good luck and have a great holiday:bigwave:

I went thru 63 registrars in choosing our registrar ( info,questions, surveys,interviews,etc.) our final 5 based on our needs in 2000 were:
UL
NSF-ISR
TRA
BVQI
Orion

Thanks for Registrar leads. We are also looking at UL out of Melville, NY. We are a UL listed manufacturer of Industrial Electrical Panels. The relationship may make things easier and we have UL Inspectors here periodically to bless the panels and install the coveted UL label to our product.:rolleyes: So I now have the beginning of the Registrar Selection Plan. With the various checklists available, we can begin. This coupled with the flow chart plan makes for a good day.Yup, the sun is shining unusually bright today on my unusually shiny dome!:ko: :smokin:

Different people and registrars have different setup arrangements. I never get a 'finders fee' because I see that as a serious potential bias to this site (which may change if I resort to accepting advertising). I recommend several registrars and let the client decide - which is why I have the registrar rating spreadsheets in the Premium Access subscription area and the powerpoint file with things to consider when choosing a rgistrar.

I have spoken with others and registrars typically offer finders fees ranging from a few hundred to a few thousand bucks. Depends upon how big the potential client is.

That said, many consultants (or whatever you want to call us) have (to be kind) gentlemen's agreements. I'll send clients to you if you send clients to me. Some folks call these 'sweetheart' deals and suggest many are not always on the up and up. I do know that to be a registrar (other than the paperwork and some odds and ends) it's pretty much a US$20,000 investment. Registrars are popping up everywhere.

Originally posted by Lucinda

The registrars are essentially certified to their own standard. It encompasses ISO 900X requirements and then some. It is the accreditation bodies that do the certifying for a registrar and tell you if they meet snuff. If you want to identify a good registrar, try choosing one who has had their feet put to the fire by many different accreditation bodies, rather than just one. I worked for a registrar for four years and experienced my share of accreditation audits and surveillance visits. We held 17 accreditations for 9000 and 14 for 14001.


Some accreditation bodies are lazy and will pass anyone. RAB audits are a joke. I would not accept a registrar who carried RAB only.





17 accreditations that must have been very costly. I am assuming you worked for one of the larger Registrars?? You have to remember the smaller Registrars cannot afford to have RvA, RAB, UKAS, etc... accreditation. Once again jmho but I don't think it should matter how many accreditations the Registrar has, I think the company needs to assess the Registrar themselves through questioning the auditors, the office staff, and other companies that are registered by that particular registrar. If you want a good registrar I think you will have to do some leg work, not look at the accreditations they have. As I mentioned before the smaller Registrars cannot afford all the accreditations a larger Registrar can, but that does not mean they are not as good if not better than the larger ones.

While I agree with the fact that the RAB has some troubles I think you need to look at the auditors they are sending you, if you didn't feel the RAB assessors were very good you should have notified the RAB or how else will they know they have a problem on their hands. (I guess you could say well I am sure someone else reported them, if that is the case you have no reason to complain). As far as not accepting a registrar that carried RAB accerditation only that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. IMHO as I stated before look at the registrar as a complete company, not just how many accerditations they have. If you leave out registrars that carry just the RAB IMHO your are taking the chance of leaving out a large number of very good registrars.


Happy Thanks Giving!!:D

Energy,

If you consider UL for 14K, ask for biographical info on the auditors. UL informed me that they preferred engineers to environmental professionals as EMS auditors.:mad:

It may not mean anything in the long run, but it causes me to reconsider a few things.

What the :rolleyes: is 14K?:)) ISO first and foremost. One expensive step at a time. Happy Thanksgiving! Hey, going fishing Saturday!;) :smokin:

Concerning Registrars being ISO 9001 certified. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Registrar ISO certified to the ISO 9000 Standards. Some names have been mentioned before, such as SGS, ABS and Moody, but I don't believe that the scope of certification for those companies cover the Registrar service line. Such organizations, such as the one that I work for, offer a variety of services. Some business units of DNV are also ISO 9001 certified, but not the Registrar business unit.

The primary reason is that we would have to make our most "sensitive" business processes and records accessible to a competitor. Who in their right mind set would pay for a competitor to scrutinize your most proprietary information and data?

Registrars are accredited and the accreditation process also includes audits by the Accreditation Agencies such as the ANSI-RAB to internationally accepted Standards such as ISO Guide 62 and ISO Guide 66.

I hadn't thought of it in that light.

From our registrar- accreditation is registration for a registrar. As for registration to a standard, I went by their scopes:

ABS Group ( Texas)(registrar SGS) Engineering verification and facility verification, certification of mechanical integrity of support systems and components, marine technical and management system consulting, training, and publishing services.

Moody International Ltd (Canada)(registrar QMI) Quality surveillance services.

SGS (various areas) (registrar ABS) Design and provision of trade facilitation, verification and monitoring services mandated by government and national/international institutions.

OK, Just a few comments.

I understand that you would not want a competitor to see your "proprietary" business processes, however I have seen nothing in this thread that can point to a Registrar using the very tool of continuous improvement that they audit the thousands of ISO registered companies to. Competitors and like companies routinely share information that is mutually beneficial. There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason why a registrar should not be ISO registered other than they don't need to invest the money because WE never call them on it.

So you say Registrars are kept in line by Accreditation bodies such as the ANSI-RAB to internationally accepted Standards such as ISO Guide 62 and ISO Guide 66? Who oversees the Accreditation bodies? If they are held to such strict standards, why have I seen numerous threads on this forum, and experinced several times personally the blatant misuse and abuse of registration practices from registrars? And please don't reply that they check any and all complaints they receive. If the registrars were ISO registered they would have to show evidence that they met the customer requirements and had a customer feedback process. If we all see it, why can't the "Governing bodies"? Besides, if you ask me, the RAB hasn't done such a bang up job over the last ten years of keeping the whole game in line. It looks to me like they decided to appoint themselves keepers of the key. Sounds like they do what they want and we do what they say.

I think the ISO 9000 concept is great, it may have some flaws, but nothing is perfect and the standard is progressing logically, albeit slowly. I also think there are some great registrars out there. I have no problem with them making a profit, that is what they are in business for. The subjectivity allowed by the registrars and the "interpretation" of the standard afforded by the Governing bodies is a HUGE problem. I have worked for or consulted for 5 companies who all received registrationl on the first attempt, but make no mistake, The fox is gaurding the henhouse and getting fat in the process.

Registrars should be required to be registered to the standard they audit to and the the subjectivity and interpretation of that standard should be removed. The governing bodies should also be registered. It should be a standard, not a "double standard"

OK, I'm done

Carl-

Carl, when you say that there is no reason for Registrars NOT be certified, I can only say, running the risk of repeating myself, why would a Registrar pay a COMPETITOR to scrutinize their most sensitive inner processes and records?:bonk: Even under the most severe confidentiality clauses, it would not make any sense.

Yes, I am aware that competitors might share some information of mutual interest, but organizations guard their most of their business processes and data as close as possible, from the competition.

Concerning the integrity of the accreditation process, I have been voicing my concerns, for a long time now, albeit in other forums. You are correct to question who keeps the accreditation agencies in check. Supposedly they have a peer review process administered through the IAF. However, the Accreditation Agencies are not policing the market place the way they should, in my personal opinion. Some industries are trying to either enhance or by-pass the Accrediting Bodies. The TS16949 and AS9100 accreditation processes are just two examples of this recent phenomena. Let me paste one of my old posts from another forum, concerning this:

" . ..Like I have been saying for the last 7 years in this discussion list. Just like in any other aspect of life, this third-party certification business is no different; there are reputable, professional, serious Registrars and auditors, and, then, there are those just trying to ride the ISO wave and make a buck out of this. It will always be a buyer beware situation.

Can the Accreditation process guarantee credibility of the process?
Only to a certain extent.

In my opinion, the accredited third-party system for certification of management systems needs to be refined. At this point in time, it is not a closed loop system. The Accreditation Agencies (ANSI-RAB, RvA, UKAS, etc. . .) do not have to answer to anybody, other than themselves during their peer reviews. In my view point, these agencies need to be accountable to Industry at large who are the “end consumers” of third-party certificates. Otherwise, who polices the police? What if there were knowledgeable, serious entities, such as IAOB, AAQG, Semitech, etc. while representing their Industry sectors, make sure that the Accreditation process guaranteed the integrity and competence of Registrars? Then we would close the loop. Industry could rely on the third-party certificates that they need. Industry would be able to define/refine/augment requirements for the Accreditation process.
Some recent examples of that, starting to take place: through the IAOB TS 16949 and the AAQG/SAE AIR 5359 AS9000 Accreditation processes. Obviously the QS-9000/AIAG process has been addressing this issue, as well, for a number of years, now.

In my opinion, until the Accreditation Agencies and Industry develop processes by which the credibility of third-party certification is maximized, there will always be a lingering shadow over the validity of third-party certificates. . . "

And finally, concerning Registrars being certified, it looks like none of the 3 listed are certified. Moody International's scope of certification (quality surveillance services) is not clear if it includes management system certification services. ABS QE and SGS ICS, the business units of ABS Group and SGS responsible for management system certification services seem NOT to be included in the scope of certification, either.

Originally posted by ISO GUY
I would love to change Registrars I think we are getting soaked by ours 20k for three days two guys to me is out rageous.
The other not sure what your business is but DLS-Quality Technology in New York, small Registrar very service oriantated very reasonable in price.
And hey you never know if you decide to go with one of those Registrars I may be your auditor!!


ISO Guy,

Two things:

1. Is that 20K two guys- three days twice a year? Is it the the cost for registration?

2. We will be interviewing DLS Quality Technology out of New York sometime real soon. My conversation with their VP went well and I sense that they match your description pretty well. As for the possibility of you being an auditor at our facility, all I can say is that I take back every bad thing that I ever said about you!:agree: :biglaugh: :smokin:

Originally posted by energy

ISO Guy,

Two things:

1. Is that 20K two guys- three days twice a year? Is it the the cost for registration?

2. We will be interviewing DLS Quality Technology out of New York sometime real soon. My conversation with their VP went well and I sense that they match your description pretty well. As for the possibility of you being an auditor at our facility, all I can say is that I take back every bad thing that I ever said about you!:agree: :biglaugh: :smokin:Nope that was the total they come once a year for three days (6 mandays), so 20k is the annula cost kind of high don't you think! :eek:

That's great!! I think you will find they are very easy to work with very knowledgeable and helpful. As far as taking back all the "bad" things you have said about me, I don't see them as bad words I see it as customer feedback for my continual improvement!! :cool:

Originally posted by Lucinda

Some accreditation bodies are lazy and will pass anyone. RAB audits are a joke. You can put the evidence of nonconformance right in front of their nose and they won't do anything. I would not accept a registrar who carried RAB only.


Why? Do you own the company? Are you concerned that you're processes aren't good enough or do you just like the challenge? Give me the philosophical rendition and then the real world dissertation. Why would I want the toughest of the toughest? Our business is running successfully at this point, without ISO Registration. We are forced to achieve it because newer larger Customers expect it. Why would I subject the company to the type of Registrar you suggest? Are they going to improve our business? Or am I just putting hurdles in the way of progress? I certaintly wouldn't want you, no disrespect intended, to deal with as opposed to an auditor who has no preconceived perceptions regarding how we should be doing business. Your (here goes that word again) "Purist" attititude towards 100% compliance as you see it, or nothing, I can do without. It adds nothing to our success as a company. It just gives me sore ones when it's time for Surveillance audits. I'll take the easy way. It's not necessarily the wrong way. That's a perception issue in the eye of the beholder. Don't take it personal, Lucy!:agree: :smokin:

Our rate is $1200.00/day plus expenses. Two facilities 8 mandays per year. Expenses are negotiable.

That's not bad, Sam. The way I figure it, if we go with continuous certification within a specified time frame, it would be comparable. The one quote I got adds the incentive to be "Continuous" and save a couple of grand. Just have to interview about 5 more.

Hey Admin,
We're using your Registrar interviewing questions. It was interesting that you mentioned hearing that some Registrars were charging for handling N/C's. This particular registrar told me to watch out for that! Onward and downward:ko: :smokin:

Energy,

Don't know how to do the "quoting" thing so I can't put your questions here, but I think my response will be clear enough.

Registration is expensive. If all a company wants is a piece of paper to hand to clients and doesn't care about anything else, then a cheap registrar who only carries RAB accreditation is good enough.

But given that alot of discussion in this forum has centered around the "value" of registration and what does it really mean to anyone and why then are clients requesting or requiring their suppliers to be registered, (deep breath), how can you further promote the devaluation of something so costly?

My goodness, the only thing that distinguishes the "value" of the registration is the rigidity and thoroughness of the audit; the competency and intelligent thought of the auditor; the outside experience and knowledge of literally hundreds of ways to address something; strict adherence to criteria and stern consequences.

No, I don't own this company but the selection of the registrar will be primarily my decision. And I want to say more than "we have a piece of paper". I want to have someone who puts us through the test and delivers a solid gold endorsement.

My company's reputation will be enhanced by the registrar's reputation. THAT is what we are ultimately buying.

Buying a cheap and easy registration is like eating bar-b-que with no beer. *shutter*

Originally posted by Lucinda
Buying a cheap and easy registration is like eating bar-b-que with no beer. *shutter*

Lucy,

Do you think for one moment that the Customer cares who your Registrar is? Not! That only matters to the "Purists":truce:

Buying an expensive and difficult registration is eating bar-b-cue brushed with Dom Perignon! It's a big waste and won't taste any different, except to those who imagine it does.:bigwave: :smokin:


:agree:

Call PJ,

They will send you one in the Mail!:biglaugh:

Lucinda, Ask yourself this question; Is the registration for me or is it for the company?
You can demand perfection, you can demand that everything be black & White, you can demand strict compliance with requirements with stern consequences, but there is one thing you can not do, and that is achieve certification by "force feeding" through a hard line audit process. The registrar and the auditor have virtually no bearing on whether or not you attain certification. All they do is check the homework and grade the papers.
Now, if your really set on getting a hard line auditor I suggest you call the registrar of your choice and ask for the "auditor from hell". Every registrar has at least one.

Randy....The auditor from Hell!!!!:mad:

;) :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lucinda
Energy,

Registration is expensive. If all a company wants is a piece of paper to hand to clients and doesn't care about anything else, then a cheap registrar who only carries RAB accreditation is good enough.Registration does not have to be expensive. That is a sad view point that you consider a Registrar that has only RAB certification as no good. So correct me if I am wrong, but a Registrar that only has RAB accreditation in your view point can not have good auditors, and the more accreditations a Registrar has the better their auditors? Do you realize that for every Accreditation your Registrar has they pass the cost on to you.

Your companies reputation isn't going to be enhanced any more than any other company. I have never heard anyone request an ISO cert. from their vendor and then say "this is good, but now we want you to change registrars to a more affluent one" Just a thought. Maybe there is information out there that can hlp us. Quality magazine runs an annual survey of registrars. If a registrar is listed way down, maybe I would choose to audit a supplier who uses them.

Also, if we name names on this board maybe some of the registrars lose business and go out of business.

If a supplier uses a poor or disreputable registrar, and customers choose to audit anyway because they know that the registrar cannot be trusted, then the supplier is not saving any money.
If we let them know that this is the reason they are being audited, perhaps they will choose to change registrars, or the registrar will clean up its act.

James

Go ahead, beat me up. But yes, I will choose to run with the big dogs when the time comes. We have international operations, need an international registrar, and one whose name carries weight with our clients. And I will ask for the assessor from hell.

This company hasn't learned the meaning of quality. There are no warm fuzzies here. This is something we are doing because the cost of NOT doing it is too much. It will take a big stick to make changes. It will take someone stronger than Mr. Rogers to impress on these people that they need to be doing all these things that they think they can get away from doing. I don't want someone who will say "well, you meet the minimum req's of the standard so there is no reason to do anything more than what you are doing."

And as I've stated before, I have no faith in the RAB accreditation (any more than I have faith in some registrars). Been there, done that, and they are a joke. Not that a company might have good assessors - but who can tell? Only RAB has looked at their system. A registrar is about more than the assessor. I want UKAS accreditation. For my registrar to carry, and for my cert to carry.

I used to track the costs of each registrar (not the little ones, but the ones with a credible client base) and there was not so much difference. The difference is in market perception. And you are fooling yourself if you think that other people don't know the rep or non-rep of your registrar. I heard more times than I can count that a company chose XX to be their registrar because it is recognized in their industry. Or that they chose them because the company they supply to uses them. Obviously these people thought it made a difference. I know of many companies who came to my former employer from a no-name to get better service and to "move up the ladder".

And speaking of cost and reputation, etc., what kind of car do you drive? What kind of dishwasher do you have? What kind of camera do you use? It's called "fitness for purpose". Quality. Exactly what I've been saying here. It just depends on what you are needing from registration.

A registrar who only carries RAB accreditation may have good assessors, but who can tell? Only RAB has looked at their system. (and I've stated before that RAB is a joke. ) There is more to a registrar than the assessors. I want UKAS accreditation for my registrar, and for my cert. Not perfect, but heads above RAB.

I refuse to believe that I will get something cheaper from a company because they "saved" money on their registration. This is a pass-down cost? Filtered through how many widgets? Wow. I guess that would amount to a 1 cent savings to me for buying 100 widgets. Thanks, but I would rather have a credible certification so that I didn't have to audit them myself so much.

Whatever.:agree: We will all do what makes sense to us.

And energy, I would never drink a sparkling wine with bar-b-que! I save that for my Belgian chocolates.:vfunny:

The bottom line to me is that each company has different needs. I have had clients that wanted big registrars and some who didn't care. A Navy facility I did some work with wanted UL. Their reasoning - unimpeachability (If UL says OK, it must be because everyone trusts UL and UL is percieved by most people to be totally 'independent').

Most any more are smaller companies and their concern is limited to price (which means a small local registrar when available).

On the no paper end - hey - if you don't need or want the paper, but you want to be able to connect your company to the ISO 9001 bandwagon in some way, that's fine.

One of the things I really love about these forums is that the more I read the better I understand how each company is an individual with individual needs. And even after all the messages in all three sets of forums software I have used, my learning never stops.

Lucinda - Welcome to the Cove Forums! The Land of Opinions! Sometimes very strong opinions. Some of my posts approximate a Southern Baptist Sermon... You've brought up some excellent points in this thread and I hope you don't really feel too 'beat up on' (the title of your last post threw me a bit - I can see the headlines now: "Woman Accosted In Cove Forums! Extra! Extra! Read all about it!") :bonk:

I'd say more - but there's nothing I can add that hasn't been addressed. Excellent discussion thread! :thedeal:

Originally posted by JRKH

Also, if we name names on this board maybe some of the registrars lose business and go out of business.Use names all you want. I like to see names. As long as facts / experiences are cited along with the opinion.

If a registrar goes out of business because they're deep sixed in a thread or two in these forums, I'll eat my hat - or a hat made of candy. Heck - Perry Johnson would be out of business if these forums held any significant sway - someone's always knocking Perry's company here.

If one really did go out of business because of things said here, they probably really deserved to go out of business. Of course, they'll probably sue me because I run the forums and they'll claim some type of conspiracy. :thedeal:

Is UKAS listed on the NYSE or something?:confused:

Lucinda sounds like someone trying to sell a used Yugo in Detroit.:eek:

IMHO the only registrations worth a crap are done by Registrars certified in Iran, Iraq, or Yemen. Nobody is going to influence or buy them off. No sir eee.:biglaugh:

How about Mexican Registrars? Or the Danes, Germans, Canadians, Japanese. How about a Swiss Registrar, Italian, So. African, or any other nationality? I guess they are all crappy too.

HEY ALL YOU NON UKAS CERTIFIED REGISTRARS OUT THERE - - YOU SUCK!!!!! YOUR CERT'S AREN'T WORTH DIDDLY POO!

I remember something about the Greek word "isos" which means equal. The same here as there.

Welcome to the Cove Forum Lucinda sweety.:bigwave:

Marc,

The last thing anyone here would want is to get you into trouble. Heck you've got enough just handling this crowd.:bonk:

If we talk about our experiences, and offer our opinions, we are merely utilizing our right of free speech and association. How anyone acts on that information is their own concern. Heck they may be LOOKING for a slack registrar!!:eek:

I have seen threads where registrars are mentioned as being good, lets not be afraid to say if they are bad.

Onward.

James:bigwave:

Dang, Randy!

All I was saying is that RAB is lousy. I didn't slam any of the other accreditation bodies.

And I said that I want UKAS. We don't need more than one accreditation on our cert, and that one won't be RAB. I could easily have picked one of the other accreditations, but for our purposes UKAS is the best choice for us.

I'm not saying everyone should/has to have UKAS on their cert for credibility. There are a ton of co's in US that only use RAB. But their registrars may be accredited to UKAS and can offer it if the client wants it.

Jiminey cricket.:eek:

I guess I better call the Irish Registrar I work for occassionally and tell them thier certs are weak and not anywhere near as good as the Brit's certs. That'll probably go over as good as a t--d in a punchbowl (or teapot).:biglaugh:

Lucinda seems to me as if BVQI has UKAS (as one of 23 accreditations) and lately I have seen a lot of companies switching to a registrar with RAB accreditation only.

As someone mentioned earlier on the subject, 99% of your clients don't give a rats a$$ who your registrar is (unless they have a bad reputation), if you are certified and providing them with quality products/services in a timely manner at a fair price I am thinking they will be happy. You stated you want UKAS does that mean you will not do business with a supplier that is certified if they do not have UKAS on their Cert.?

i apologize if it seems as if we are beating up on you, but you have to be prepared to back-up your comments/opinions with fact and I have not read anything from you that would back up your comments.:(

How many times do I have to say that it is my opinion based on accreditation experience? What are you asking for facts for? Here's a fact: the RAB may overlook a nonconformance of a registrar even if it is stuck right under their nose. I say "may" because like all things, there is an outside chance that it won't happen. But I know of it happening at more than one registrar. A definite look-aside, a kick under the carpet.

And why do you refer to the asssessors as RAB assessors vs. UKAS assessors??? I wasn't comparing RAB certification for assessors vs. IRCA certification. I wasn't talking about the assessors at all. I was comparing Registrar accreditation. Quit taking it personally if you are an RAB certified auditor. (which is where some of this hostility is coming from I think).

And I was Opining that I wanted UKAS accreditation for my registrar. Because it is my Opinion that it is more conscientious than RAB.

There are other accreditations that are equally fine, and some that I feel are even tougher. But for our purposes, the UK accreditation is more universal and applies to our field of operations. Our clients would recognize the accreditation mark.
Which is something that alot of companies take into account when they choose their accreditation. Some companies, such as FedEx, carried every accreditation mark available. Other companies would carry the accreditation mark for the country in which they did the most business, or where their parent company was located.

Why am I a pariah because I say that RAB isn't a good enough choice for me? An Opinion formed through my contact with them.:confused:

Stand your ground Lucinda..don't give up or even back down an inch if you truly believe what you say (especially here with this bunch of sharks):)

It's refreshing to have some new flesh to chew on, some fresh ideas to beat the hell out of, and a new kid on the block to try and whip.

I honestly think some of these guys are being a little easy due to the fact you are a "soft-soldier";)

Marc has created here the best outlet, bar none, for folks in our field to thrash out ideas, ventilate, seek solutions and just BS (by the way have you ever had grilled frog frizbee's? They are a roadkill delicacy!!).:biglaugh:

Originally posted by Lucinda
Here's a fact: the RAB may overlook a nonconformance of a registrar even if it is stuck right under their nose. I say "may" because like all things, there is an outside chance that it won't happen. But I know of it happening at more than one registrar. A definite look-aside, a kick under the carpet.

I was comparing Registrar accreditation. Quit taking it personally if you are an RAB certified auditor. (which is where some of this hostility is coming from I think).

And I was Opining that I wanted UKAS accreditation for my registrar. Because it is my Opinion that it is more conscientious than RAB.



Lucinda, I am sorry but I can say the exact same thing about Registrars that are UKAS, RVA whoever accredited, it is not specific to the RAB alone!:frust:

I am RAB accredited and I am sorry for taking it personally, but with your statements you are implying that my certification means nothing is that not so?

Having the opinion that UKAS is better than the RAB is fine, I have a different opinion, that is what makes the world go round. I welcome you opinion and enjoy reading your posts, I was just curious why you feel this way.

:confused:

Carl,

I have smoking gun against RAB and their practice. I won't discuss the registrars who got away with things. I won't tell you the particulars. Sorry, I know that disappoints you, but talking about those kinds of things could hurt people and it would not inspire RAB to clean up their act. It serves no useful purpose.

My experience was with initial accreditation with two accreditation bodies, surv. with them and with other accred. bodies. My experience is also from fireside stories shared within the industry, where there is much movement of office and auditor staff. You know how it goes, people talk, we know things...

I can't share details with you and I realize that it weakens "my case" as it were. But I'm not here to make a case. I stated my Opinion, which I got blasted for. My Opinion is based on things which may not disturb you if you did know of them. Everyone has their own alarm point. It's not like the registrars are wicked or anything.

As you may know from the ABS accreditation suspension last year (by RvA? refresh my memory...), the RAB wouldn't disclose if they were also taking action. They said it is their policy to not disclose that.
So, if the registrar you are using is in bad with the RAB, you would never know about it! Sounds a bit worrisome to me.:(

Well, Ok, I'm done fussing about this. It's been really fun, but as Carl says: there is work to do and money to be made. Come to Texas some time and we'll have some bar-b-que and beer. ;)

last minute addition: oh my, you guys are quick aren't you? I had barely finished typing this and two more responses are here! Flusters a girl some..
Randy, thanks for the encouragement. I don't mind knocking heads. Some people think I go out of my way to be onery. But actually I learn more from arguing than from agreeing with everything. I even change my mind sometimes! And then I will agressively argue THAT viewpoint!
ISO Guy, if you want RAB on your cert, that's ok. There's companies in the US who want to use the US accreditation mark. The point is whether your registrar is accredited by other countries or not. And if they are not, then they have only been looked at by RAB and have to follow RAB guidelines. They may be a good registrar, it just hasn't been agreed to by anyone other than RAB.
Over and out. This is deadfished now, right?

Originally posted by Lucinda
How many times do I have to say that it is my opinion based on accreditation experience? What are you asking for facts for?
Why am I a pariah because I say that RAB isn't a good enough choice for me? An Opinion formed through my contact with them.:confused:

Lucy,

Not once did I see you mention that anything was your opinion. Not A "JMHO" or any other qualifier. When you say things, we get the whole version, like it was facts. You can expect opposing views, because many of us have been in the business when you were learning how to stay on a bicycle. That's my guess!:vfunny: If anyone were to assert the things that you have, they would bear the burden of proof. Not because you're "soft" as horny Randy says. Read Barb B.'s, E Wall's, Carol X's posts. They expect no quarter and get none. And, they can draw blood. Right, Carol? It has nothing to do with gender. I happen to think you are extremely intelligent, a term I use for anybody smarter than me. :ko: And is this site, they are many. Your experience is obvious. When you say things, but can't reveal why you say it, it will get challenged. Particularly if it goes against the grain of reality. It's OK to have goals and ideals, but separate what you want from what you have. The Philosophy Section is a good place for those lofty ambitions. I've learned a lot from "ISO Man" and "The Real Carl" once I got past the initial feeling of being irritated.:truce: They stuck to their guns and didn't say they couldn't tell anybody why they thought how they did. And, trust me, they took a lot of heat. Don't give up the battle. Don't expect that just because you say it, that's it.:vfunny: Not in the Cove:agree:

The 2nd company sent a rep. from their company that "might" be our auditor. I asked him how critical path, as called out in TS-16949, could be realized. He proceeded to ask me if I had a copy of TS that he could "borrow" before he answered the question. I gave him my copy and after I showed him where critical path was noted, he took 5 minutes to answer and said to the group that "Critical Path" was nothing more than having a process flow!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al,

Can you tell me what was the reply of the auditor you chose on critical path? Just Curiousity..

RAK,
Refer to the definition of "critical path" on page 82 of the APQP manual.

Also see:

Choosing a Registrar - What Should We Look For in a Registrar? (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1809)
and
Rating and Choosing a Registrar (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1774)