I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal

I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal

The sales process should include the need to properly get requirements from the customer, who says, "I need model Z, but with two holes drilled in the Henderson flange," along with whatever specific information is needed. Purchasing can then contract for the necessary services. This should be considered a normal business process, and not something that's done to satisfy the standard. If the processes are designed so that customer requirements are reflected in the finished product, it doesn't matter which clause is applicable.

I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal


Are we talking about ISO9001:2000?

If we are: Looking at both paragraphs, I believe it would fall under section 7.4, Purchasing, and paragraph 7.2.1 (b) but not sales, unless defined by the organizational authority via a W/I or procedure. Only because a "service (product)" is being purchased/procured, in my opinion.

Are we talking about ISO9001:2000?

If we are: Looking at both paragraphs, I believe it would fall under section 7.4, Purchasing, and paragraph 7.2.1 (b) but not sales, unless defined by the organizational authority via a W/I or procedure. Only because a "service (product)" is being purchased/procured, in my opinion.

7.2.1(b) pertains to requirements not stated by the customer...but qualitygal says that customers need modifications. How will anyone know that modifications are necessary if the customer doesn't tell anyone? It seems to me that if Sales is writing the order, they will need to take note of the special requirements, which is 7.2.1(a). Note that 7.2.1 doesn't specify who or which department is responsibile; so long as the job gets done according to the requirements, it doesn't matter as far as the standard is concerned.

I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal

I think it should be handled from a "team concept" I would identify the process holder and get them involved and then all the parties the document may effect also is the process mapped?

Best regards,
Al

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.

I'm sorry, I misread the intitial question :bonk:

It's still "purchasing" even if Purchasing isn't doing it. Note that the standard calls for a process approach, which by definition frowns on processes being impeded by department walls. It doesn't say anything about which department must fulfill individual requirements. I think maybe the problem is with your documentation strategy.

You may be right about that. I think we should consider a flowchart or swimlane interaction. And that has been discussed. I just needed some props from my learned colleagues. If you guys have any suggestions for the documentation of this let me know.

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.And that is why the Standard emphasizes a PROCESS approach to the QMS. As long as organizations are constrained by departmental feuds, implementing a modern QMS is extra painful.

Then it appears that paragraph 7.4 is the guiding paragraph?

I with you Jim regarding that it should be under the authority of Purchasing, unless otherwise specified (W/I or Procedure).

Well I guess 7.2.1 (b) wouldn't apply :bonk:

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.

I don't think you have a problem - just write down who does what. My purchasing procedure is around here somewhere - I'll look for it if I get a minute - there are all kinds of people who are not in the Purchasing Department that are authorized to purchase various things.

The one thing that I see in your post is that you ask the question "whose responsibility" but then ask where the activity is referenced in the standard. Please remember that the standard DOES NOT tell us anything about which dept should be responsible for the activities that are required, only that we do the activities and that we define the responsibilities and authorities for all the required activities.

Purchasing is purchasing. If sales does part of your purchasing, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as your sales staff is trained and competent to meet the requirements of the standard and of your own company. Our purchasing dept. actually does very little of what you describe as purchasing. Each department picks their vendors (for the most part), and creates purchase reqs. Our purchasing dept. reviews the reqs, makes sure that the requirements of the ISO standard are met (product requirements are spelled out etc.) and coordinates supplier evals. My apologies to the purchasing dept., I know that there are lots of products that they do order, I don't mean to make it sound like they do nothing. :truce:

Thanks to everyone. I have a little bit of a cold so my mind wasn't working very well this morning. We had a meeting and came to the same conclusions. This company is small, only 50 emps and a lot of people wear a lot of hats. We decided on a purchasing procedure that references work instructions for the types of product purchasing that goes on here. I was really worried that it could become the procedure from heck and didn't want that to happen. This company has a lot of records and evidence of what they do, they just don't have any written procedures so in a way I'm retro fitting the standard to what already exists. Thanks again everybody.

Qualitygal

This company has a lot of records and evidence of what they do, they just don't have any written procedures so in a way I'm retro fitting the standard to what already exists.
Sounds like you're off to a good start. Keep us posted!:bigwave: