I'm taking an informal survey here.

From what I have heard and read there are many occasions where management acts, behaves, and gives the impression that they are only seeking quality system certification for the paper. They covet the magic document that they can wave in their customer's face.

The survey question is: Have you ever been told directly to you face by management that the paper is all that matters and nothing else?

I'm taking an informal survey here.

From what I have heard and read there are many occasions where management acts, behaves, and gives the impression that they are only seeking quality system certification for the paper. They covet the magic document that they can wave in their customer's face.

The survey question is: Have you ever been told directly to you face by management that the paper is all that matters and nothing else?My experience with such managers is simply, "If it walks like duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it is probably a duck!"
Most managers are smart enough (is that an oxymoron?) to mouth the words while doing the opposite.

We once had an idiot professor in college whose students were convinced his grading method consisted of weighing the term papers with the highest grade going to the heaviest package. Is that any different from a modern manager who elevates the file clerk to "management rep" because he doesn't want anyone who really knows about quality trying to change the company? Then the manager claims "these quality guys don't know anything, why should we listen to them?!"

I doubt there will be many who would make that statement. I can't imagine investing all the time and money needed to establish a QMS only to turn your back on it when it is in place. The initial motivation to establish a QMS may have been specific customer or industry requirements but once the system is up and running (certified), you would have to be crazy not to use and continually improve their system.

Some may joke about it but most will agree business cannot exist in today's market without a sound quality/business management system. Their competitors would leave them in the dust.

Obviously, just my opinion.

Dave

Have you ever been told directly to you face by management that the paper is all that matters and nothing else?

In my first foray into the murky depths of ISOland, (~1990) the impetus for registration came from the marketing department, wherein someone had read a trade magazine article that suggested that American companies would not be able to sell products into the EU unless registered. This was patently false, of course, and most likely emanated from a self-serving consultant, but it didn't matter. Faced with the (real or imagined) prospect of losing 30% of the company's business, the CEO gave the definite and unambiguous order: Get the certificate. The process that followed, although nominally successful, never had any pretense of process improvement

Definitely NOT! It means a whole lot more than "just a piece of paper" in this company. Keeps me employed too! ;)

I'm taking an informal survey here.

From what I have heard and read there are many occasions where management acts, behaves, and gives the impression that they are only seeking quality system certification for the paper. They covet the magic document that they can wave in their customer's face.

The survey question is: Have you ever been told directly to you face by management that the paper is all that matters and nothing else?

Would you like this to become an interactive poll?

To date, I've worked for 3 companies that had ISO 9001 or QS registered quality systems. (When I joined all 3, they were not registered.) Companies 1 & 2 had a firm committent to the quality system and its underlying principles. Company 3 wants to ship good product, and management firmly states they support they QMS, continual improvement, etc., but in my opinion they "talk the talk" but do not "walk the walk".

I've kept touch with a friend in the quality department at company 2, and he has told me they have gone to a "talk the talk", but not "walk the walk" support of the quality system - sad, they were good to work for while I was with them, but the trend was negative when I left. The new management was determined to take a relatively collaborative union/management situation into a traditional combative one.

They are still ISO/TS registered, as is my current employer.

Prior to my experience with my current employer, I was of Dave Scott's opinion - I'm sadder but wiser now.

Would you like this to become an interactive poll?

I originally thought about that but seeing it's only a yes or no answer I didn't go that route. (Am I over simplifying it?)

I was also waiting to provide more background to my question so as not to taint any replies. But since I'm back here in the Cove anyway....

The reason I am asking this question is that it recently happened to me. I have realized for a long time that I didn't and don't have full management support regrading the quality system here. I've always received pleanty of lip-service (Quality is our top priority. Inferior quality will not be accepted.) but that and $3.89 will get you a grande mocha latte down the street. However to be told to your face that the paper is only reason the quality system exists here is a cold, hard slap in the face. I took it very personal to the point that it was implied whatever work I do here is trivial and worthless.

That's my story and I'm just trying to find others in boat or others who would tell me I'm totally off base.

However to be told to your face that the paper is only reason the quality system exists here is a cold, hard slap in the face. I took it very personal to the point that it was implied whatever work I do here is trivial and worthless.

That's my story and I'm just trying to find others in boat or others who would tell me I'm totally off base.

My first ISO system was kind of forced by a (the biggest) customer. "compliance" was the buzzword. Then we became compliant, and through (my own ignorance that good enough was what was required, and I love to "make it better than good enough") our efforts gained praise from that customer as being far better than some registered suppliers, decided that we might as well get registered. It was, at first, only for the paper. But, as they began to see results from our material review board, our COQ, our review of claims, the bosses started to come around, some even began to be outright fanaticists.

What does all that rambling have to do with anything? If your bosses don't see the value there are some decisions you can make.
1) quit. run. don't look back. get out of dodge.
2) try to enlist a few key supervisory/managerial people who will help you to put together the kinds of bottom line evidence that management loves to see and get them on board.
3) enlist the support of as many hourly people as you can to prove that an implemented system can and will help them as much as the company and attempt to push the system up the ranks instead of down. (takes longer but sometimes is just as effective, because management, in my experience, listens to the production team as that is where they "see" profitability.
4) a combination of 2 and 3

best wishes. hope that your decision works well for you.

FWIW:
I don't think this thread will be improved by a poll. The actual posts are more enightening than the mere yes or no numbers.

The actual comment of "just the paper" would only be in front of an employee or consultant who had the nerve to actually ask the question.

I'll be honest...initially, I feel my company did pursue ISO 9001 registration as merely an exercise to frame an 8.5"x11" piece of paper.

However, we have a facility-wide embracement of management systems and we understand the benefts of them. We see the improvements in our performance and stabilization of our processes. Morale is much better at my location than what it used to be like. Safety has taken a dramatic turn for the better in the past 6 years. Suggestions for safety, environment and quality come frequently from the floor are all are considered to have merit (okay...the majority of them are...some are just plain silly....no, we will not fire our QC Manager because you don't like him saying your product was out of spec).

It didn't happen over night...but it did happen.

Would you like this to become an interactive poll?

I would be very interested to see the results in an interactive poll!

One of my former employers (in software development) talked the talk when I started working for them - they already had certification. The changes I made to testing processes reduced their customer complaints by about 80%, but after 2-1/2 years and their 3 year re-certification being issued I was made redundant. They changed their approach to quality control without even discussing it with me. :frust:

I, for one, have been at a company where it was not only blatantly obvious
to everybody that management could not care less about QA, but where it was actually communicated in the fashion you described: It is just a piece of paper that we need in order to sell our items. Management only talked the talk during recertification, and then continued to do whatever they pleased afterwards..... :mg: :mad: :applause:

That was kind of an interesting place to work :bonk:

FWIW:
I don't think this thread will be improved by a poll. The actual posts are more enightening than the mere yes or no numbers.

You should be able to add a Poll to the thread Wes - Moderators should be able to do that on any thread. See the Thread Tools drop down menu. If not, let me know the options you want and I'll put in a Poll.

Moderator note: poll added - anyone think the choices need editing? I will abide by consensus, with heaviest weight for RCW, the original poster.

Wes,

I'll give my final answer first: Let the poll exist as written.

Now for my commentary on the last two options to select in the poll. (I hope we are all friends here and these comments might even warrant a new thread). To me, the continuous improvement concept of many quality systems jumps out at me. I would hope to see many select the latter, that their quailty system is a "work in progress". To some degree, isn't that what continuous improvement is all about? But to say your quality system is more than worthy, doesn't that imply you are resting on your laurels and possibly not applying continuous improvement methods? Maybe yes, maybe no. That's my view from this side of the computer screen.

Wes,

I'll give my final answer first: Let the poll exist as written.

Now for my commentary on the last two options to select in the poll. (I hope we are all friends here and these comments might even warrant a new thread). To me, the continuous improvement concept of many quality systems jumps out at me. I would hope to see many select the latter, that their quailty system is a "work in progress". To some degree, isn't that what continuous improvement is all about? But to say your quality system is more than worthy, doesn't that imply you are resting on your laurels and possibly not applying continuous improvement methods? Maybe yes, maybe no. That's my view from this side of the computer screen.The way I look at it, the "more than worthy" IS regularly employing continual improvement evaluation (sometimes the economics don't justify expenditures for improvements, prime criterion being net profit from the improvement - more sales? more profit per sale?)

The final choice is for organizations that are on the road, but have some gaps which need to be fixed to meet MINIMUM requirements of the Standard.

As Wes said, CI is the ongoing evolution of system, while it continues to be applied throughout the company to meet the requirements of the company and our stakeholders.

Our Registrar has cited us as having "best in class" items within our management system, including the integration aspect of it. Our softwares are loved by auditors. Best of all, they always comment how wonderful it is to see that our people - no matter their level or position - are able to answer questions consistently.

CI of the system is ongoing, but at some point the improvement steps become smaller and smaller. So, we have the majority of our CI focus on the manufacturing processes. We take the concepts of Plan-Do-Check-Act and apply it out on the floor. We don't show CI of the management system.

I'm pleased such a small percentage said it is only for the paper. That is encouraging.

I'm pleased such a small percentage said it is only for the paper. That is encouraging.

At this moment there's a total of 9 votes for (explicit or implicit) Just Paper; the same number as for "walks the talk/work in progress."

I wonder if more people would vote on this poll, if the votes were "secret". It is never a good career-progress move to announce publicly that your boss just wants the "paper on the wall".

I wonder if more people would vote on this poll, if the votes were "secret". It is never a good career-progress move to announce publicly that your boss just wants the "paper on the wall".
Interesting point, Sidney. I changed the poll to hide the voters.

I wonder if more people would vote on this poll, if the votes were "secret". It is never a good career-progress move to announce publicly that your boss just wants the "paper on the wall".

I based my vote on the Management of the company I am at right now. If I was to include the previous company I worked for it would be:

"Never out loud, but it's clear by actions or inactions it's just "paper on the wall"

I am not worried about any company reading my posts.

At this moment there's a total of 9 votes for (explicit or implicit) Just Paper; the same number as for "walks the talk/work in progress."


Yes, but there are two answers, maybe even a possible third, which connote levels of buy-in. And, the majority of replies fall into those categories. I am enheartened it was not a 50/50 split.

Yes, but there are two answers, maybe even a possible third, which connote levels of buy-in. And, the majority of replies fall into those categories. I am enheartened it was not a 50/50 split.

For myself, I would rather see an exec come right out and say it's just for the paper rather mealy-mouth about it when the motive is clear.

For myself, I would rather see an exec come right out and say it's just for the paper rather mealy-mouth about it when the motive is clear.


well, sure, but I'll have to take what I can get...

As a consultant, I was recently invited to visit a prospective client who wanted to get ISO 9001 certification. The company are a small, family run construction contractor who wants to grow and therefore felt the need to get a certificate.

It was an interesting meeting where three of the family discussed with me their needs and we agreed on a provisional programme. At the end of the meeting the MD asked if he could now put a certification body logo on his letterheads with the word 'pending' underneath rather than a number!!!

I declined to take the proposal any further.

At the end of the meeting the MD asked if he could now put a certification body logo on his letterheads with the word 'pending' underneath rather than a number!!!


Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. :frust:

As a consultant, I was recently invited to visit a prospective client who wanted to get ISO 9001 certification. The company are a small, family run construction contractor who wants to grow and therefore felt the need to get a certificate.

It was an interesting meeting where three of the family discussed with me their needs and we agreed on a provisional programme. At the end of the meeting the MD asked if he could now put a certification body logo on his letterheads with the word 'pending' underneath rather than a number!!!

I declined to take the proposal any further. I can only guess "someone" didn't fully explain the entire process in terms the management really understood. This has some of the aroma of the one consulting firm (Randy's favorite) which used to advertise something to the effect "ISO registration in 40 days."

I can only guess "someone" didn't fully explain the entire process in terms the management really understood. This has some of the aroma of the one consulting firm (Randy's favorite) which used to advertise something to the effect "ISO registration in 40 days."

Sadly I don't think that was entirely the case. I suggested that once he had signed up to start the project he could indicate this fact on his tender applications. He replied that he had been putting that on them for 2 years.

I have worked for some companies that 'only want the paper' I didn't last there very long at all.

I worked for one company that told me -

'after two years with us you won't give a **** about the Quality!'
World leaders in their field apparently.

I have also worked for one of the largest Pharmaceutical/Medical Device companies in the world and I must say that the Quality was second to none. I was proud to be a part of the team.

Sidney Vianna I wonder if more people would vote on this poll, if the votes were "secret". It is never a good career-progress move to announce publicly that your boss just wants the "paper on the wall".

(not sure if I did the quote right:o )
I didn't vote on the poll, not because it isn't secret.
I wasn't even aware that some were secret and some were not.
I simply didn't vote on this poll because I didn't see an appropriate answer for my particular situation.

'after two years with us you won't give a **** about the Quality!'
World leaders in their field apparently.


Very catchy with slogans too! :lol:



I simply didn't vote on this poll because I didn't see an appropriate answer for my particular situation.


Feel free to submit another answer to add to the poll.

I have worked for some companies that 'only want the paper' I didn't last there very long at all.

I worked for one company that told me -

'after two years with us you won't give a **** about the Quality!'
World leaders in their field apparently.

I have also worked for one of the largest Pharmaceutical/Medical Device companies in the world and I must say that the Quality was second to none. I was proud to be a part of the team.



(not sure if I did the quote right:o )
I didn't vote on the poll, not because it isn't secret.
I wasn't even aware that some were secret and some were not.
I simply didn't vote on this poll because I didn't see an appropriate answer for my particular situation.OK what choice would have given you an opportunty to respond? I can modify the poll.

Percentage of companies that you have worked for that 'walk the walk' or opposite?

Or something similar perhaps?

BTW the word that was '****' in my original post wasn't a swear word.:)

Percentage of companies that you have worked for that 'walk the walk' or opposite?

Or something similar perhaps?

BTW the word that was '****' in my original post wasn't a swear word.:)the swear word censor is like a spell checker - it doesn't always catch things and there are ways around it (like taking tips from spammers in your email who deliberately mispell words to get past spam filters.)

For example "***" will end up in asterisks, but A$$ will not.
"****" will also turn to asterisks, even if it is just a typo from leaving the "o" off "hello"but you can type he11

If you have words get caught in the automatic censor, you can always go back to your post and edit to make your point.

For the poll: you can vote for whichever one best fits and explain further in a post by saying
"I voted for _______, but the reality is it was the exception of companies I worked for, but it was egregious"
OR
"I voted for _________ because most of the companies I worked for met that definition."

BTW the word that was '****' in my original post wasn't a swear word.:)

Well, it is now. :lol:

Thanks Wes, I had no idea about the polls.

As for the 'swear' word....I was unsure if 'd a m n' was in fact another of those differences between both the American/English and English languages. I didn't want to offend anyone, so if the word is offensive, then I am sure you will delete it.

I would have ticked all four but this is the reality.

Management has said directly in my hearing, "All we care about is certificate on the wall!" Defence aerospace.


Never out loud, but it's clear by actions or inactions it's just "paper on the wall" Medical devices.


Management really "walks the talk" and our QMS is more than worthy of the "paper on the wall" Plumbing fittings :applause: and medical devices
:applause:

Management really "walks the talk," but our QMS is still a "work in progress" with some gaps..medical devices.

I would have ticked all four but this is the reality.

Management has said directly in my hearing, "All we care about is certificate on the wall!" Defence aerospace.


Never out loud, but it's clear by actions or inactions it's just "paper on the wall" Medical devices.


Management really "walks the talk" and our QMS is more than worthy of the "paper on the wall" Plumbing fittings :applause: and medical devices
:applause:

Management really "walks the talk," but our QMS is still a "work in progress" with some gaps..medical devices.
Strange, indeed! Dam_n and he11 are words you read and hear in a Christian church, but our software deems them "unacceptable."

Strange, indeed! Dam_n and he11 are words you read and hear in a Christian church, but our software deems them "unacceptable."

'D a m n' was the word that I used, but wasn't sure if it was offensive in the US...you never know.

Strange, indeed! Dam_n and he11 are words you read and hear in a Christian church, but our software deems them "unacceptable."

It's not the software per se. I set it that way. The point is we really don't need to use those words here in business discussions. I ask that people do not.

I don't know whether or not it has anything to do with the decision or not, but there is filtering software in use in such places as public libraries that will scan for "offensive" language and block access to sites on that basis. Depending on the threshold limits in the software, it's possible that a site could be blocked for a single "****." (I entered the asterisks myself)

I don't know whether or not it has anything to do with the decision or not, but there is filtering software in use in such places as public libraries that will scan for "offensive" language and block access to sites on that basis. Depending on the threshold limits in the software, it's possible that a site could be blocked for a single "****." (I entered the asterisks myself)
Yep! Only last year, there was a big flap because some libraries had software that excluded sites that used the word "breast" and thus excluded folks from researching "breast cancer."

Sorry Marc :o

It's not a big deal. There are a lot of words used that I prefer not be used, especially in the Water Cooler / Coffee Break and Humur forums. I do think that typically these words are not of value in the 'business' discussion threads.

While I would like to block out more specific words, because as is noted abobe by Jim some filtering software keys on specific words, it really isn't possible to try and block all potentially 'objectionable' words. So - I have a few of the 'basics' blocked.

Like I say, it's not a real big deal, but I do think it can help to keep discussions more 'civil' at times.