We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process?

I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????

Jkittle:

If you look into the AIAG document on LPA's they are supposed to be run by you Manufacturing Management, so the 'objectivity' and 'impartiality' required would IMHO go out the window.:read:

Also, you have to internally audit processes other than the manufacturing processes. Similarly, the requirements for training are different - none for LPA's but required for TS.:yes:

There are many other threads here about LPA's. My experience says beware of LPA's - a good internal qms audit tells much more about an organization than 'looking over' the shoulder of the operators all the time!!:notme:

Andy

We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process? I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????

LPAs typically focus primarily on manufacturing processes (order fulfillment), so system audits still need to occur.

Thank you to both of you this helps!!


Jerry

According to CQI-8 from AIAG.

Layered Process Audits can be considered a process audit as required by ISO/TS 16949 :2002, Section 8.2.2.2,.

Does IATF accept this?

Anyone with comments on this?

May I?

The AIAG Guideline suggests that LPAs may be used to meet the ISO/TS 16949 requirement for 'process audits'. Actually, 'TS' requires each manufacturing process to be audited to determine its effectiveness, which isn't necessarily the same thing as an LPA, whose main purpose is to see if the instructions and other controls are being used. They are, however, not a substitute for qulity systems audits.:nope:

In another section, the AIAG consider the results of LPAs to be one of the 'audit' inputs to Management Review, which looks reasonable.:yes:

Now for my 'spin' -:mg:

Having attended all manner of training, implemented LPAs and researched them, I don't agree with the AIAG that an LPA can be a substitute for any kind of audit. Since the embrassing requirement for audits (ISO 9001:2000 8.2.2) is that audits be conducted by personnel who are objective and impartial (and there's no modification under section TS 8.2.2.2 that says otherwise), my assertion is that the people who do these Layered Process audits are not going to to be either objective or impartial!:rolleyes:

Furthermore, the AIAG guide states that although they recommend a training be conducted on LPAs, the auditors do not need to be trained, in fact 'everyone is an auditor' - well, maybe, when h*ll freezes over....... Having worked with many trained internal auditors, even training doesn't always 'get it' for them, so heaven forbid the folks who audit without training.:(

Was that what you were asking for, Marc?;)

Andy

Well, I was researching several types of auditing and found this thread where Howard was sorta left standing without a response, so I asked for further comments. Your observation is appreciated. There is disagreement, especially with respect to what layered process audits are, for example, even between companies such as Ford and GM.

Now for my 'spin' -:mg:

Having attended all manner of training, implemented LPAs and researched them, I don't agree with the AIAG that an LPA can be a substitute for any kind of audit. Since the embrassing requirement for audits (ISO 9001:2000 8.2.2) is that audits be conducted by personnel who are objective and impartial (and there's no modification under section TS 8.2.2.2 that says otherwise), my assertion is that the people who do these Layered Process audits are not going to to be either objective or impartial!:rolleyes:

Furthermore, the AIAG guide states that although they recommend a training be conducted on LPAs, the auditors do not need to be trained, in fact 'everyone is an auditor' - well, maybe, when h*ll freezes over....... Having worked with many trained internal auditors, even training doesn't always 'get it' for them, so heaven forbid the folks who audit without training.:(

Was that what you were asking for, Marc?;)

Andy

I agree with you, the whole internal audit requirements of TS are interpreted completly differently depending on the body that "controls" you:bonk:

We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process?

I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????


They cannot take the place of internal audits. As discussed throughout this thread, they are different in a number of ways. If properly constructed, they could fulfill the requirements for Manufacturing Process Audits (TS cl 8.2.2.2).

OK - The focus is on processes. Does that include shipping? Off line inspections?

OK - The focus is on processes. Does that include shipping? Off line inspections?


The LPA's I have seen generally included questions about inline inspections, first piece inspections, and final inspections. Those can be offline at many companies.

Packaging is generally included, so I would think it could extend to Shipping, as well.

They cannot take the place of internal audits. As discussed throughout this thread, they are different in a number of ways. If properly constructed, they could fulfill the requirements for Manufacturing Process Audits (TS cl 8.2.2.2).

Yea, that is where I went. I first was going to make a distinction between LPAs and TS Manufacturing & Product Audits (see 102506 overview), but since management was so into the LPA I am in the process of modifying the LPA to cover both the manufacturing and product audit requirements (see 111006 overview). To make the LPA work for me (A Cove Principle), I went with the following wording to deal with the objective and impartial requirements:

Auditors performing LPAs are to be knowledgeable of the process for planning and
executing the manufacturing processes as well as the controls for ensuring that only
defect free product is released to the customer. Due to the multi-disciplinary approach to
planning and executing the manufacturing process, a LPA will most likely be performed
by an auditor who has played some role in the process. The coordinator of LPAs is to
ensure that the objectives of LPAs are understood by the auditors and that their conduct
and audit reporting are objective and impartial.

Still Working It!
Doug

I would like to edit my input to this thread. How can I change attachments I have entered?

Thanks,
Doug

I would like to edit my input to this thread. How can I change attachments I have entered? 'Edit' your post. You'll get the 'mini' edit window. You'll see a tab/button that says 'Go Advanced' - Click on it and it will take you to the full editing mode window. Scroll down a bit and you will see a tab/button that says 'Manage Attachments'. There you can Delete and Add attachments.

NOTE: Editing of posts is open for 7 days from the post date except for Moderators and Administrators. If anyone needs to edit a post after 7 days, just let me know and I'll help. This is set at 7 days because a few years ago someone came in and deleted every post they had posted, and deleted every attachment, going back a couple of years. I don't know why, but I didn't think that was quite 'fair'. It screwed up a lot of discussion threads.

I have the strategie for 2007 to implement LPA. It seems they can be value added according what I have read. Does anybody reccomend to take care for something in particualr regarding your experience?

Hi,
What is actually layered process audit? :confused: Is it the same with the manufacturing checklist in which I can use during Manufacturing Audit?
Please advise.
TIA
Best regards,
Raff :cool:

Hi,
What is actually layered process audit? :confused: Is it the same with the manufacturing checklist in which I can use during Manufacturing Audit?
Please advise.
TIA
Best regards,
Raff :cool:

Layered Process Audits are a Customer Specific Requirement from some customers. Hopefully, it is different than your Manufacturing Process Audits.

Manufacturing Process Audits ideally should be an in-depth review of the details of a particular manufacturing process. Most companies have trained auditors take a control plan and walk through all the checks, all the gages and documents, etc.

Layered Process Audits are promoted or required by certain customers as an additional activity. The framework typically is a one or two page checklist which is a fairly short overview of a particular product being produced. The "layers" come from different levels of managers participating in the same audit. Floor Supervisors, Area Managers, all the way up to top managers are intended to audit the same activity. The perceived benefit comes from the idea that different ranks of managers will see the same activity from different perspectives and might see weaknesses or improvements that others didn't spot. There is also the aspect that higher managers with greater authority are involved, which could bring additional benefit.

So, the two audits audit the same work cell, but in significantly different ways. However, you are free to adapt the techniques to suit your needs, because there is not much written as to mandatory approaches. Most is guidance type information, except customer requirements training such as DCX provides.