Hi all, let me start and say I'm not sure if I would have a job if it wasn't for this site. A huge THANKS to all. Earlier this year I was offered a job as Quality Engineer with a main purpose of maintaining the ISO procedures, internal audits etc.... I have refered to this site almost everynite for a long time. All my questions have been answered just from reading the post. All of your input has been put to a good use. Today my boss came in and gave me the minutes of the management review and told me I should audit the Management Review. My question is..am I auditing him? Auditing the report or a combination of both? He was responsible for the review. He is the Management rep. He is also the one that gave me the job, so I hate to ask him what I am supposed to do here. Any thoughts are appreciated. We are ISO 9001:2000 certified. We are a manufacturing facility. Thanks in advance, Don

Hi all, let me start and say I'm not sure if I would have a job if it wasn't for this site. A huge THANKS to all. Earlier this year I was offered a job as Quality Engineer with a main purpose of maintaining the ISO procedures, internal audits etc.... I have refered to this site almost everynite for a long time. All my questions have been answered just from reading the post. All of your input has been put to a good use. Today my boss came in and gave me the minutes of the management review and told me I should audit the Management Review. My question is..am I auditing him? Auditing the report or a combination of both? He was responsible for the review. He is the Management rep. He is also the one that gave me the job, so I hate to ask him what I am supposed to do here. Any thoughts are appreciated. We are ISO 9001:2000 certified. We are a manufacturing facility. Thanks in advance, Don
Welcome Thunderhead and I'm glad the Cove has been a source of so much help. When performing and audit on our 'Managment Review' I look at a few things because this is not only an internal process but also a part of the standard. I audit the clauses in the standard to ascertain if we meet the requirements. We should because we are already certified so I don't spend a great deal of time on the clauses but do a quick review. The real Process is our internal process and anyway the External Auditor will audit the clauses. Our internal process is modelled on the clause.

5.6.1: General:
Top management shall review the organization’s quality management system, at planned intervals, to ensure its continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness.This review shall include assessing opportunities for improvement and the need for changes to the quality management system, including the quality policy and quality objectives. Records from management reviews shall be maintained (see 4.2.4).
5.6.2. Review Input:
a Inputs to management review shall include information on results of audits.
b Inputs to management review shall include information on customer feedback.
c Inputs to management review shall include information on process performance and product conformity.
d Inputs to management review shall include information on status of preventive and corrective actions.
e Inputs to management review shall include information on follow-up actions from previous management reviews.
f Inputs to management review shall include information on changes that could affect the quality management system.
g Inputs to management review shall include information on recommendations for improvement.
5.6.3. Review Output:
a The output from a management review shall include any decisions and actions related to improvement of the effectiveness of the quality management system and its processes.
b The output from a management review shall include any decisions and actions related to improvement of product related to customer requirements.
c The output from a management review shall include any decisions and actions related to resource needs.

Secondly, I audit our internal process to ensure that we meet our OWN requirements. This will include the usual, such as, Interviewing the main players (a selection of Meeting attendees), the minutes and records of the meetings, action Items and follow up actions etc. I never look at an audit as if I am auditing a person I always look at the process involved. :)

my company was issued 1 CAR because no management review......after that i know that this is the requirement.....so, dun take easy....hehe..:biglaugh:

There should be no problem for you to audit the management review. Take a look at the minutes and compare them to the procedure or quality manual and also the standard.
You may want to look at the previous audit done for management review. It may point out a weakness in the system.
If you have any questions about the minutes, then ask your boss.

Danny

No, you are not auditing him, you are auditing the process in which he is a key component or player.

Audit the process.

Are the required inputs happening?

Is the required activity occurring?

Are the required outputs happening?

What does the "review procedure" say, does it meet the requirements of the standard and is it happening?

If interviewing the "boss" is necessary do so, but what can he say beyond what you already have and know?

Anything beyond the above will be fluff, wasted effort and BS.

Additionally, nice to hear about your job. Good luck.

There should be no problem for you to audit the management review. Take a look at the minutes and compare them to the procedure or quality manual and also the standard.
You may want to look at the previous audit done for management review. It may point out a weakness in the system.
If you have any questions about the minutes, then ask your boss.

Danny

Thanks guys, this is what I started doing today but needed to hear that I was on the right path. :thanx: I tried to find any evidence that an audit was performed on the last Management review but could not locate any. I dont think it was done. I did notice some of the action items never got carried out since the last review.:confused:

OK, you've got some trails and maybe some problems.

The lack of action could be indicative of a CA/PA issue and the audit is self explanatory. Also mgmt review isn't complete until the results of the audit are part of it.

If it was me in my capacity based upon what you've said I'd probably be sharpening the pencil.

Our president headed up the MR, so he did get the brunt of the audit in addition to the staff.

Thanks guys, this is what I started doing today but needed to hear that I was on the right path. :thanx: I tried to find any evidence that an audit was performed on the last Management review but could not locate any. I dont think it was done. I did notice some of the action items never got carried out since the last review.:confused:

Absolutely; you are auditing the process and not the individual. When you audit your boss, forget that he is your boss and compare against the standard requirements.

It is possible that your boss realized there were problems in management review and wanted the nonconformances documented. Just because he is the management rep does not necessarily mean he has sole responsibility for management review. He may have wanted the audit so he could discuss the process for management review and make sure everyone is doing their part.

When you do the audit and write up the findings, make sure the focus is on the process and not individuals as everyone else has recommended.

Bill Pflanz

I tried to find any evidence that an audit was performed on the last Management review but could not locate any I dont think it was done..

Do you require that an audit is performed on every management review? What is your audit schedule for management review?

I did notice some of the action items never got carried out since the last review.:confused:

Never carried out...how long a period are you talking about? Was there a schedule for when those items were to be completed? I guess this question comes to me because of the first thing that caught my eye.

If there should have been some work on it, by all means there is a nonconformance. If there is a list of items and a schedule and that schedule is not being followed. Just remember that if you had the management review on Tuesday and auditted on Wednesday, there may not be enough time to assess the process outputs.

You'll be OK, you seem to know the general path you need to follow in this learning experience. good luck, and remember that there are lots of people and lots of experience here.

Do you require that an audit is performed on every management review? What is your audit schedule for management review?



Never carried out...how long a period are you talking about? Was there a schedule for when those items were to be completed? I guess this question comes to me because of the first thing that caught my eye.

If there should have been some work on it, by all means there is a nonconformance. If there is a list of items and a schedule and that schedule is not being followed. Just remember that if you had the management review on Tuesday and auditted on Wednesday, there may not be enough time to assess the process outputs.

You'll be OK, you seem to know the general path you need to follow in this learning experience. good luck, and remember that there are lots of people and lots of experience here.

The management review is required once per year. I do not have anything that states the management review has to be audited.

As far as the action items from last year...it was worded that the items would be looked into. It did not state the action items were to be completed.

You have nothing that says that the management review has to be audited? That's one of the heaviest loads of whatever I've heard in a bit.

You have a requirement to audit the "system". Management review is one of the processes within the "system". If you don't, then the audit process itself is broke.

Every requirement has to be audited to include the audit itself.

I didnt see anything that states I have to audit the review. I do have something to audit the management, which..... should consist of auditing the review? Either way it will be done by the end of the week. Let me say again I am trying to figure this out as I go. I could be reading or misunderstanding this. Thanks for all of the help. After the first of the year I will get in some classes.

Look, "Management Review" is a part or piece or a component of the SYSTEM. You have to audit the SYSTEM. If you do not audit the MANAGEMENT REVIEW then you are not performing a complete SYSTEM audit. Read below.

8.2.2 Internal audit
The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to determine whether the quality management system
a) conforms to the planned arrangements (see 7.1), to the requirements of this International Standard and to the quality management system requirements established by the organization, and
b) is effectively implemented and maintained.

Management Review is a process that is a part of your SYSTEM. It has very well defined requirements for input, activity and output. Read below.

5.6 Management review
5.6.1 General
Top management shall review the organization's quality management system, at planned intervals, to ensure its continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness. This review shall include assessing opportunities for improvement and the need for changes to the quality management system, including the quality policy and quality objectives.
Records from management reviews shall be maintained (see 4.2.4).

5.6.2 Review input
The input to management review shall include information on
a) results of audits,
b) customer feedback,
c) process performance and product conformity,
d) status of preventive and corrective actions,
e) follow-up actions from previous management reviews,
f) changes that could affect the quality management system, and
g) recommendations for improvement.

5.6.3 Review output
The output from the management review shall include any decisions and actions related to
a) improvement of the effectiveness of the quality management system and its processes,
b) improvement of product related to customer requirements, and
c) resource needs.

If you do not audit the review to ensure that the requirements of it are in fact being performed as required and and cannot supply the evidence of such then your audit is not being performed correctly and the results of it will be incomplete.

Everything, I repeat, everything within your SYSTEM must be audited to ensure that the requirements (the SHALLS) of ISO 9001 are being met and maintained effectively.

What is so hard to understand?:frust:

Hi all, let me start and say I'm not sure if I would have a job if it wasn't for this site. A huge THANKS to all. Earlier this year I was offered a job as Quality Engineer with a main purpose of maintaining the ISO procedures, internal audits etc.... I have refered to this site almost everynite for a long time. All my questions have been answered just from reading the post. All of your input has been put to a good use. Today my boss came in and gave me the minutes of the management review and told me I should audit the Management Review. My question is..am I auditing him? Auditing the report or a combination of both? He was responsible for the review. He is the Management rep. He is also the one that gave me the job, so I hate to ask him what I am supposed to do here. Any thoughts are appreciated. We are ISO 9001:2000 certified. We are a manufacturing facility. Thanks in advance, Don


you can add value to the company through auditing the top management.
Give them something, add value.
They will be thankful to you.

I agree with Randy. The process of Management Review is being audited, not the Boss.

Look at the process, not the person.

Ok, I have everything in place to perform this audit. I really appreciate everyones input. Randy, you asked "what is so hard to understand?" I have tried to soak it all in and do it correctly without any training...yet, theres just not enough hours in a day, but I am much clearer on this issue. I'm sure I'll have more though.:bonk:

OK, good luck Pard....If you can get it to happen try to get some training, it's not realy required as such, but it may help and sure couldn't hurt. There is some inexpensive on-line stuff if nothing else is possible.

Hang in there.

Thunder,

I have audited my boss many times and even issued corrective actions. Top management supports the system, is audited and has actions items just like everyone else if the process needs it.

Some people in our company could not believe I could issue a nonconformance to the President. :bonk: He is part of the process and he was the owner in this area, therefore, he received the corrective action. My job is to audit the system not play favorites. I would rather find a nonconformance internally and improve our system. I never saw issuing a corrective to the President as a bold and risky thing to do, I only saw an issue that needed to be corrected regardless of who the process owner is/was.

Thunder, remove "Boss" from the picture and audit the process.

By the way, one benefit we receive from the President receiving action items was improved participation. If the boss works at his responsibilities and wants to do well, accepts corrective actions and completes them; the whole company see's first hand the boss is willing to do is part and participated at the same level as everyone else.

Good luck,

Cindy

Well, everybody so far has been telling you to audit the PROCESS and not your boss. That sure is confusing. Every process has a face attached to it. That is the process owner. The process owner for the management review process is the MR. So when you are required to audit management review, head for the MR's office. Of course you cant audit the management review by quizzing the Janitor. So go and audit the MR. Get relevant details about the process from him. He will answer your questions. He will explain your queries. He will provide relevant documents and records required for the audit. All these are not going to fall from the heavens on your table because you wish to audit a process. You need an auditee.

If the MR happens to be your BOSS, so be it. Nobody can audit his own work. So his work needs to be audited by someone. And what happens if everyone else reports to him?

If you find any problems, comment on WHAT is wrong. Not WHO is wrong. And thats true for all audits. Not just when the auditee happens to be the Boss.

The answer to your first post is a simple word. YES.

you can't audit, if your boss and you belong to the same dept(Quality). audit need to be done by a person independent of the function.(iso requirement)
have a great day.

regards,
kareem.

you can't audit, if your boss and you belong to the same dept(Quality). audit need to be done by a person independent of the function.(iso requirement)
have a great day.

regards,
kareem.

Kareem,

Allow me to clarify. ISO 9001:2000 Clause 8.2.2 states: "Auditors shall not audit their own WORK." (Emphasis mine). As long as you do not audit your own work, you can audit your boss' work, your colleagues' work, etc. For example: an internal auditor that works in the purchasing department buying MRO items can audit someone else in that department that purchases raw materials. If you have a larger audit team, (resources!) then you have obviously more options to avoid the appearance of "conflict of interest."

Stijloor.

Such good responses so far. They are almost all correct: though you are indeed auditing the process not the person; that could feel iffy because he's in your department. But Management Review must indeed be audited, and unless you have a part in that process you're the one for the job.

In the course of this discussion I found a couple of areas you may want to open up for a further look, which you are permitted to do based on simple discovery in the course of any audit.

1. There should be a way to make sure all the needed elements get audited. How is that done? How do you know it's happening often enough? There should be some kind of schedule or plan that says it's time to audit Management Review. Maybe your boss has that.

2. If you have no audit training, the registrar might call into question your competency to assess the QMS effectiveness. Might want to ask your boss about that too.

Auditing Management Review should not be difficult, and others have outlined the associated elements. When I audit it, I look for inputs, evidence the review has all the needed components (there should be some records) and what came out of the Review(s). What did management decide to act on? What did the deployment of plans look like? What kind of review happened on the results--were they satisfactory? If not, what response did Management have to that? Stuff like that.

I'm so glad we've been helpful to you; I could sure have used a site like this when I started auditing some years ago. Welcome!

1. Yes it's auditing the process and not the person. However, the Management Representative, by definition, should welcome the audit and facilitate as much as he is able. I've audited my boss twice so far, had no problems in this area.

2. My boss and I are not the same person. I don't see any problems auditing anthing that's not directly my work. I was fortunate enough to put together an auditing team with half a dozen people, and I was careful to pick out and include all departments, so we have it good there.

On a side note, I have to audit the internal auditing process. That's a much more hair-pulling experience than auditing your own boss.

3. Sounds like your QMS is not complete. You should think about what you want for your MR and your IA processes. Maybe your boss will accept an extension if you talk to him about it.

4. There's some training required for internal auditing. I was certified as Lead Auditor and that helped me much more than our consultants ever did. If you have had no training, you might consider asking for some.

I am an internal auditor for a manufacturing facility and I, too, audit the management review process by starting with our Management Representative, who happens to be my boss. I look pass the fact that he is my boss and strictly audit the process to the TS requirements, customer specific requirements and our internal procedures. If there are nonconformances in management review, he happens to be the one the issues are addressed to and he is the champion for any corrective actions required. It is difficult sometimes, but we have to keep in mind that we auditing the process, not the person.:bigwave:

You audit the process of management review. Interview the boss for clarification.

Use your noodle before talking with the boss............

If you have a copy of the review record and can see what went in and what came out and who was present what are you going to ask about?

If your boss's name is in the record as being present during the review, are you going to ask "Were you there?"

If you can see that decisions were made as a result of the review are you going to ask "What did you do?"

If you can see that required inputs were addressed are you going to ask "What was discussed?"

You need to decide what you will achieve from interviewing the boss that you cannot get from the review record. Now if there are some problems or clarifications neede, by all means interview.....and definitely don't waste the persons time by asking "What is the policy?"

A good question I use is "What are your responsibilities within the MS?" But, you had better know the answer before you ask the question and that holds true for all questions.

Thank you. I do pull all the review meeting minute notes and other documentation that was reviewed during the management review. After reviewing the documents, I make decisions on who I need to interview, if any.

If your boss's name is in the record as being present during the review, are you going to ask "Were you there?"
If you can see that decisions were made as a result of the review are you going to ask "What did you do?"
If you can see that required inputs were addressed are you going to ask "What was discussed?"
and definitely don't waste the persons time by asking "What is the policy?"
A good question I use is "What are your responsibilities within the MS?" But, you had better know the answer before you ask the question and that holds true for all questions.

This non value audit approach may come about from copying what an external auditor does. They usually have not done enough prep work (heck we pay them by the hour) so they have to start with these really basic questions.

As an internal auditor, you should have access to the procedure and the meeting records. A few hours of desk work should pretty much determine basic compliance. Does the procedure as written meet ISO? Do the meeting minutes meet the requirements as written? Is action in place when targets are not met? Is improvement underway even when targets were met?

As an internal auditor I know all this before I ever set foot in the big guys office. My questions are to see if there is other evidence that can close identified gaps. There often is. The system has not kept up with the reality of day to day. An easy CAR to close. Other times there really is a gap, which takes a bit more effort to correct.

I have never had a problem auditing the boss, I often get more detail about the long term business plan than I really wanted/needed to know.

People around here know I never ask a question I don't already know the answer to.

RANDY
Your all answers are useful and impressive ,,,
just thanksgiving note to you ....

The main thing to remeber is to audit the inputs and outputs.

1. Ensure all requirements as stated in the standard are covered in the topics. (customer satisfaction, audit results, quality system effectiveness, continuous improvements, etc), there are specific requiremetns that need to be addressed in the MR.

2. What are the outputs and are they acted upon. There should be a clear set of actions items that come out of the MR and they should be driving you continuous improvement.

3. Are actions being followed up. There shpould nopt be continuing issues with no actions. This shows a lack of support from upper management and in my opinion shows the MR is only to meet the reqirement.

Hope this helps.